~0zzygirl~

I am really tired of worrying, talking, bitching and moaning about this. But I figure you guys would like to know what is going on... and now that I've calmed down some, I can tell you that part of the mystery may be solved.

So it seems as though some coolant was finding it's way into my combustion chambers, therefore causing the smoking and stuff when cold (i.e. when it had time to leak a large enough amount in there) and in turn, wrecking the seals. I guess the coolant leak and the flooding issue were unrelated but caused similar symptoms. I am now awaiting the arrival of engine #2.

Now I'm trying to figure out the coincidence. Or, did I actually flood it to begin with? Remember, that they did find that all 4 practically brand new spark plugs were fouled, and the coils were replaced as well. Maybe this coolant leak is what was going on the whole time, and by me parking it in the driveway that night on an incline aggravated the situation with the coolant leak. And when someone comes in and says, "I think I flooded my rx-8 and now it's running like crap," a coolant leak isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind. Also, now I'm thinking the over-filled oil may have had 2 quarts of anti-freeze in there.

To be continued....

zoom44

actually engine #3 right? htis is the first replacement that has the coolant leak?

~0zzygirl~

Original, 1st replacement, now waiting on 2nd replacement. So yes technically #3.

shaunv74

OMG!! These guys are morons! Be careful when you get your oil changed. They may replace the engine on you again! I would seriously question their ability to work on a rotary if they keep having to swap engines out like this on you...

~0zzygirl~

Yeah, it does seem a little bit crazy. I'm thinking Mazda can't be too happy with them for ruining a brand new engine. Although, it seems like most of the guys I've talked to on here know more about these engines than they do, and so far I don't think anyone suggested to check for a coolant leak.

Ha... I had 'em all stumped. Wish that were a good thing. I just hope it's fixed for good. I haven't read too much about these cars having coolant leaks, so I don't really understand how it would have started. I just hope it doesn't happen again, and I don't have a clue as to how I could help prevent that from happening.

Hopefully it was just some bad luck. I probably had some bad karma coming my way...

shaunv74

Try PM'ing Rotarygod, guitarjunkie, mazdamaniac. They have intimate knowledge of the rotary internals. I don't know enough about how the sideplates are sealed up and the cooling passages to speculate on an internal coolant leak.

~0zzygirl~

The latest? Bad gas. After 2 engine replacements, they drained the fuel system and found contaminated gas. I was told that 2 of the guys thought it was diesel, another wasn't sure. I could understand if it were just water... is there any way that water in my fuel would somehow resemble diesel?

I only THOUGHT this was a nightmare until now.

I have done a search on contaminated gas, water in gas, diesel in gas... can someone give me some insight on the possibility that my problems could be from diesel or water?

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

You can not mix water with diesel or with gas it stay's seperated on the bottom of the fuel tank. It will move around in the tank when the car is in motion.
If the Dealer can not tell the differance between water and diesel you need to go to a new dealership. If they took a sample and say it "MIGHT" have water in it they are blind.
Gas and Diesel are lighter that water and therfore the water will settle in the lowest point. Now if the fuel system picks up water then it might cause a miss in the firing of the plugs. Now how you would get Diesel in your gas is a mystery. Diesel will mix with gas and you cannot visually tell if it is mixed. If they put a match to it and it did not readily ignite then you might have a high ratio of diesel in the tank.
All Diesel will do is slow down the combustion rate, as in how fast the fuel burns. This also depends on the ratio of diesel to gas. It might also suppress the spark at the spark plug and therefore cause a misfire.
Diesel wont hurt the engine.
You might just check with the station that you normaly buy fuel at and ask them if they had a mix up at the filling tanks. Becaus the Dealer is telling you , you have diesel in your gas. See what they say.
I'm a diesel technician by trade and I see Gas in Diesel all the time. It (gas) will cause a Diesel engine to smoke white smoke and loose power. But as far as the other way around it should do only as I described earlier.
They (dealer) could send out a fuel sample for testing. It might cost a lot of money though.
Sounds like you should take a sample and get a second opinion.

~0zzygirl~

Thanks for the insight. So, diesel doesn't separate from gas, as water would? I really need to see the gas for myself... I got the impression that whatever it was, it was not mixing with the gas.

Assuming they are wrong about the diesel, and it turns out to be just really nasty water, would it have caused the symptoms I had? Ran fine after fill-up until it sat overnight, then smoked, coughed, hacked, spit (literally) barely would idle.... fouled my plugs, got much worse after next fill up from same place. Also, if the fuel system is compromised, then would that explain the low compression numbers?

This sucks... I knew it was something trivial. I think maybe I'll go get some diesel, some gas, and some water and do some chemistry experiments in my garage. After all, I do have a bachelor's degree in chemistry and am a research tech by trade.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

Diesel is unrefined gas, basically a light oil. It will not burn if you put a match to it. It has to get warm and become vaporous for it to combust. It will burn if you warm it up,unlike gas which is highly volitale and burns readily with a flame. If you mix gas and diesel and compare the mix to straight gas and straight diesel you might see a differance. Deisel fuel is darker than gasoline and so if you compared the three side by side you should come up with a color variance. Ever so slight.
The symptoms you have would not be instantanious (overnight) if it were water in the gas. As in if it was not running rough before you shut it down ,it can not just start up and run rough.
Only way would be if the fuel system had pulled water all the way to the injector and and you shut it off just before injection. That ain't gonna happen.
The odd's of that happening are,,, 1,984,876,525,852.81746986356 to 1.
And then it would have to be pure water at that point (injector) for a few thousand revolutions of the engine. Just not a scenario that is going to happen. Sound's to me like the dealer 's service techs are grasping at straws for something they don't have an answer too.

**I AM NOT SUGGESTING TO USE OPEN FLAME NEAR GAS OR DIESEL**

shaunv74

how would diesel get in your tank? The nozzle on diesel pumps is a larger diameter and will not fit in your tank opening. It's designed that way specifically so people can't do that by accident. go to your gas station and check out the pumps, you'll see what I mean.

I still say ditch your current dealer on the grounds that they are incompetent and find a new one. They don't know what the heck is up and doesn't sound like they are using any concrete method of finding out.

Bang your shoe on the shop managers desk and yell: "I want data!! Show me the data!!"

seikx8

Wheww... just finish reading all the posts and all the symptoms look like something I had experienced a few times. And mine are a long one too, maybe someone might find some light to it.

Occasion 1. a year+ ago, When my coils failed, I replaced all four. I cleared the e-shalf profile with 20+ stomps on break pedal right after turning on key. Try to start the car, it start and pretty much die immediately. Try a few time, so I end up having to give it a little gas right away once it start to keep he rpm above 2k rpm. After some a few seconds, I let go of the gas pedal, engine idle fine. Leave it idle until it settle in about 8rpm. Engine is warm at this point. The next day, startup the engine proceed to the warming cycle and dry to work. Everything seemed fine until I hit stop and go traffic. By this time, the engine is hot in normal operating temp. My engine just die after I let go of the gas pedal in neutral when I have to stop. Look pretty embarrass I proceed to start the engine and everything run fine, after I use the give it a little gas pedal technique. After I reached work and parked. I reset the PCM & e-shalf again and have the car restarted. What I notice is that when the engine start, it like to idle very low in the 500 rpm range well below the norm idle point of 800rpm. So I end up leaving it idle for like 5-10 minutes before it catch up to idling at 800rpm. After that, everything run fine and perfect.

Occasion 2. a few months ago, went to laguna sega. After I took my car to the track, I found one of my coil about to go but I was prepare and have extra and replace the coil at the track. I did norm reset procedures and leave it idle for 5-10 minute until the fan come on and off a few time. Everything run fine. But there were some misfire during track run. Story short, after I came back I proceed to replace all coils. Engine can't idle without some help of the gas pedal. But I was manage to fix by letting it idle until everything run good for 5-10 minutes. No other problem after that.

Occasion 3. I got a cel just last week, check and it was related to the gas cap. Proceed to clear th cel, and decide might as well clear the e-shalf. This was after I came back from work, so the engine idle pretty normal. But I still have to give it a little gas in the initial startup to keep it from dying. This time I forgot the previous two experiences so I only leave the engine run maybe a minute or two, since I notice the idle already settle in the normal position. Story short, the next day I drove the car and engine is hot in normal operating temp at this point after some minutes of driving around the block between my parent and my place. It only happen when I let go of the gas pedal during a stop when the rpm start to fall very quick from high rpm and once it reach 1000rpm it just keep falling and the engine just die. Usually, when the rpm fall near 1000rpm, the pcm tries to keep it from falling then settle down at around 800rpm. I try to start up, engine almost immediate die if the engine rpm reach any higher than 2000rpm and start falling after let go of gas pedal, have to give it a little gas to keep it from falling below 1000rpm; this almost sound like the engine doesn't have a fly wheel or running on a very light fly wheel. If I leave it idle by let out the gas pedall slowly, it was able to idle at about 600, engine vibrates a little more than normal. If I have the clutch in when it idle < 600rpm, and let go of the clutch quickly (I have ACT clutch), it just die and this is in neutral! After I got home and park on my drive way. I end up having to re-set the pcm, e-shalf and have to leave it idle for 5-10 minutes.

My engine is now still running strong and no symptoms. It was a '04 model 2nd/3rd batch in so-cal, current it has 65+k on it.

After I read this thread, I have to reply from all these experience just hit me back where everything sound too familiar. Of all these three occasion, the common fact is that I do the pcm reset during cold temp around 60ish and didn't let the engine idle long enough. The car run fine in normal rpm after warm up, it only die if I let go of the gas and the rpm fall fast and cannot idle and stumble and die in neutral.

btw, I would also want to say, some dealers are full of crap! I bet the #2 engine was cause by the mechanic stress testing out the car when it's cold where the engine didn't have a chance to warm up normally. With these low temp lately, it took almost 10+ minutes for my engine to reach a good hot norm temp driving on the freeway. The idiot water temp gauge on the cluster does not tell you that.

I would very interested in to find out the real cause and outcome of 0zzygirl' problem.

~0zzygirl~

[QUOTE=Easy_E1]
The symptoms you have would not be instantanious (overnight) if it were water in the gas. As in if it was not running rough before you shut it down ,it can not just start up and run rough.
[QUOTE]

Yeah, I get that... but, just being devil's advocate here... I can imagine that right after I pumped the alleged bad gas, the water or whatever would be nice and mixed up in there, and there would be good gas already throughout the system. Then, after sitting all night, it would get all nice and separated. THEN try to suck that crap through your fuel filter and injectors and all that jazz that I know nothing about, and you get a car running like mine... possible?

I mean, I know that it is common for a small amount of water to be found in gas, and we talk about "winter gas" etc. What if I just happened to get enough water/trash/whatever in my tank of gas so that it still ran?

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

I have experience where a tanker pumped Premium in to the Diesel tank and it messed up a lot of equipment. Had to do a lot of tank flushes. It was a Texaco station by the way. So it might not be the vehicle owners fault if the fuel they are pumping is wrong.

shaunv74

Yeah i don't see how the vehicle owner could have intentionally or accidentally pumped diesel into their car. It's designed to be mistake proof for the driver. Now if the gas station is not putting the advertised gas into the proper tank by accident or otherwise the station is liable for that.

86rx7

If the engine is leaking coolent into the chambers it was assembled wrong, or overheated.

~0zzygirl~

Well, evidently that wasn't the problem. They thought that may be b/c they were told to check for a coolant leak. They hooked it up to a vacuum or something and it lost pressure. I don't know if I said that right but you probably know what would have been done. I'm assuming that since they addressed the coolant issue, then put in a new engine that they still had the same problems, and then decided to drain the fuel and found it to be nasty.

I really think the bad gas has been the root of the problem all along... DING DING DING..... WE HAVE A WINNERRRRRRRRR

~0zzygirl~

Finally....
I got my car back today. It was definitely the gas all along. I have 2, 20-oz Coke bottles full of gas sampled from what they drained out. Looks like diluted lemonade. Put about 30 miles on it, no problems so far in the way it runs. There are a couple of things I want to address...

They agreed to replace my throw-out bearing since they were pulling the engine anyway. It had started squeaking and they had already identified the squeak as the throw-out bearing but I was told it was a normal noise (whatever). This is the most noticeable difference. Much smoother shifting and the clutch motion is much shorter and there are NO noises coming from the clutch. What I previously thought was transmission noise, aka gearbox noise, aka gear rollover.... we all have read the threads about the very common "grinding" noise when the clutch is engaged... I have to say, now that I have had mine replaced, that noise is definitely the throw-out bearing, which I think is aka clutch release bearing in the TSB's.>>> ABBID, WERD TO YA *****.

Of course, the first thing I did when I got home was pop the hood. The engine bay was nasty. I immediately noticed some oil near the fill cap, on top of what I think is part of the intake.. the black plastic thing that runs from behind the oil fill cap to the intake and air filter. So I figured they probably spilled some when filling. But I popped open the air box and noticed oil on the air filter and in the intake tube.

I have read TONS of threads on this and remember reading that filling the oil too fast can cause it to spill over, among other things. But I can't remember the name of the sensor that can get covered in oil and then kills your gas mileage. Can someone refresh my memory? I have tried a search but there are just so many and I'm pretty sure someone can remember without searching. I want to be able to mention it when I take it back for them to clean. I am not sure I'm comfortable with taking that stuff apart to clean it.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

3k you newb..

ozzy.

there is a tsb for a clutch switch squeak... and please if you had fuel contamination, go back and fight for a new fuel pump... that is going to be a problem in the future...

food for thought...


beers

~0zzygirl~

Ahh yes, MAF sensor... thanks.

And I know where the bad gas came from, that is a long story that I felt would be in my best interest not to post until I got final word from Mazda and a car that was fixed. I guess it doesn't really matter now... After the dealer told me about the bad gas, I started nosing around the State Office of Fuel Compliance. Turns out, the station that I (used to) frequent had a leak in their premium storage tank. So, nobody vandalized my car. And no, I'm not dumb enough to pump diesel into my zoom-zoom.

"Replaced throwout bearing per TSB for customer's concern" is what is stated on my paperwork. The "MT-Clutch hard to disengage" TSB is what I took to them, at your suggestion in a previous post (thanks again.) The ONLY reason they replaced that bearing is because they were replacing the engine... even though they identified the squeak as being the throw-out bearing, they said it was a normal noise and refused to replace it until they knew they were going to be pulling the engine. But, I don't understand what you mean when you ask if they applied the TSB, or simply swapped the bearing. Basically that is all the TSB states, except bleeding the clutch line.



Yes, I read that TSB... as far as I know, they didn't replace the clutch cut switch. But, squeak is gone, regardless. Hopefully it won't be an issue now...

I do agree with you on the fuel pump, and was surprised that none of the components of the fuel system were replaced. I'll pm you with more info on this.

~Ozzy~

~0zzygirl~

More on the clutch... the TSB http://www.finishlineperformance.com...4-06-1641a.pdf says:

Some vehicles may experience that the free play on the clutch pedal increases and the clutch is hard to disengage.
At hot ambient temperatures or approx. 85 F (30 C), ethanol used during installation of the clutch release cylinder
boot becomes vaporized and expands. As the pressure in the boots increases, the piston is pushed back
into the release cylinder body. As a result, a gap appears between the piston and the push rod, resulting in
excessive free play and the clutch hard to disengage.
As a mass production change, ethanol is no longer used during clutch release cylinder assembly.

I didn't realize exactly what they meant by "hard to disengage" until now. Given, it has been over a month since I drove my car, but before the new bearing it was like there was only cm between engaged and disengaged. 'hard to disengage" made me think it was difficult to press in. The clutch feels more firm now, but as soon as I start to let off the clutch I can feel it gradually engaging. Not like before, when I had to have perfect timing or it would bog down or spin the wheels. Honestly, I just thought it was a combination of my inexperience in MT's and just being an entirely different kind of car.

My point in all this rambling is... well I like to look at my font, I guess. But also, it seems like the average owner who is not privy to these types of websites or the existence of TSB's is being short-changed by not fully understanding the issues they may be having...

~0zzy~

~0zzygirl~

Yes... but even though they told me the engine wouldn't need to be broken in as new, I am still going to take it easy for the first 1000 miles or so... Is the clutch release cylinder the same as the bearing? Pardon the ignorance... but if it isn't then maybe I only had the swap, to appease my complaint. I was under the impression that your clutch exploded and was totally replaced. Am I mistaken or are you having these issues with a new clutch?

swoope

iTrader: (5)

the tsb you mention is the slave cyl... it pushes in the rod that hits the fork that hits the throw out bearing that depresses the pressue plate that disengages the clutch disk...

i would love to see the docs from your replacement...

beers

shaunv74

Glad you are back up and running. The concern expressed over not replacing your fuel pump is that it is in the fuel tank and the fuel filter is in it. This means anything that was in your tank from the bad gas could be clogging up your fuel filter or could be stuck in your fuel pump. We hoped they would pull and replace your fuel pump. If you have problems in the near future I would ask them to pull that first.

Glad your back up and running and the dealer honored the warranty!!

~0zzygirl~

You mean the documents they keep? Or the generic blue copies you get sent home with?