olddragger

iTrader: (3)

i have been running water meth injection for some years now. I used to run it for the octane boost--lower iats etc. Now I just used it for cleaning purposes.
It does help clean.
If you push a LOT of fluid through it --then you may need to change your oil...?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I will be doing an oil change once my tests are done.

If nothing else, I don't like how it's a nebulous recommendation without anything to support it. I don't personally have a belief for or against it yet, but I hope to find something convincing. I will be specifically looking for water content in the oil to verify, that it does indeed get contaminated. Or to show that it's not a concern.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

curious, why did you switch to the washer fluid?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It's what the water/meth injection guys typically go for, since the basic washer fluid (no de-icer, no bug remover, no rain-x, etc...) is pretty close to straight 50% methanol 50% water, and dirt cheap. This is what they inject and it works for cleaning, so I figured I would check to see what it might do when used like this.

I have a feeling that it was a combination of the fuel content (from the methanol) and rich idle that increased the carbon amount. I suspect that water at idle would not have added to the carbon, though probably not much removal either. I suspect that the higher revs of ~3-4k are what is really helpful during this process. Water is probably better than water/meth for this purpose.

The next couple tests should be able to clarify this. I will be in the office tomorrow, so will run the next one Tuesday.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I'll read all the BS later.

No doubt some small amount of carbon is removed but it does nothing to restore compression or increase the life span of the engine. Any amount of carbon removed from the faces doing this will be right back there again after a decent drive. But let's wait for all the noobs to read bits and pieces of this thread and then **** up **** trying to do this.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

Agreed....that you should read the thread.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I don't even know what that means, carbon build up on the housing doesn't happen.

Okay I read everything. Decarbing your engine is useless (see my post above). But hey if you think it's a worthwhile endeavor then knock yourself out. For me, I will stick to 2,000 mile oil changes with Mobil1 0W-40, Idemitsu premix, the SOHN adapter, never running it without getting to full operating temp, and driving the **** out of it.

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

I'll chime in here and say that water cleaning isn't useless, but I also wouldn't recommend doing this often (once a year or slightly less frequent is a good number). Any carbon removal (which water/steam will certainly do... it's fact, and it will clean well all things considered) is beneficial and especially around the seal's and springs which is primary reason why you'd want to do this method.

Don't expect immediate or results that you can "feel", but it's more of a great preventative measure against seal chatter, and making sure those springs are moving freely without the long term effects for a gradual loss of compression due to stuck carbon or whatever the case may be.

If you do Sohn, frequent oil changes, and premix then you probably won't really need to steam clean. But for all others who just follow Mazda's guidlines and don't do those extra's, then a good cleaning via this method might be a good idea.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

That was me. I did this at the suggestion of Rob at Pineapple Racing.

After doing my initial flush/clean, which was the first I had done on the car ever (2004 with perhaps 60,000 miles on it) I noticed what I believed to be better low-end compression, due to the fact that I did not have to slip the clutch nearly as much at launch in order to avoid stalling. Weak as far as empirical evidence is concerned, but it was quite noticeable and lasted a good year.

Since then my motor has deteriorated more, to the point that I tried it again, and saw no change in any discernible behavior.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

I do all the same to mine. But, to say decarbing does nothing for compression is a broad blanket statement that does not cover all the failure modes that cause low compression.

Does this process remove carbon? Yes, shown with pictures.

Does this process help recover compression? In some cases yes, in others no. In the yes cases, the seals and housings are still in good condition, and seals are simply being unstuck. There are numbers on this thread that show that. A few other past members who know what they are doing have found much improvement too.
The no cases are simply just too far gone, or there is physical damage to the sealing surfaces.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Not quite true. It's certainly not bad buildup, but I have seen more than a few teardown pics with carbon cake on the housing.

Google still sees the thumbnails in it's cache from Sleepy-z's thread: (but the links are broken: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...-share-153828/


Here is another Googled one from an RX-7



Sounds like a plan. No one ever forced a maintenance method on anyone else here. You are still more likely to lose an engine from a coolant seal rupture.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

just trying to throw out random ideas, but wouldn't it help even more if you sucked in hot water instead of room temperature /cold water? This way less energy is wasted on the heating of the water before its state change to steam? Not to mention it can't be good on wear parts to ingest a fluid with a large delta from its operation temp.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

If there is carbon build up on the housing, then that chamber is already fucked and seeing a major loss of compression. The only way carbon stays on the housing is if the Apex seal is already worn down. That happens when people have an engine with one rotor housing that has good compression while the other is blown completely or way down on compression.

The pics you posted are of blown engines. On a normally operating engine you will not see that, which is why your comment about this method removing carbon from the housings makes no sense.

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

Thanks RIWWP. I rest my case.

I think we got a bore o scope. If i can sneak it out of the shop I'll try before and after pics doing straight up water cleaning.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

As if he proved anything to support your case. Obviously you didn't read all of his posts.

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

I skimmed, but the facts basically show carbon removal. Which you seem to believe is completely pointless.
I know what I know. I've done "cleaning" processes and yielded results. (Some of which people are so quick to blame on other factors rather than the cleaning itself)

Your stuck on trying to disprove, then realizing there are people netting conclusive results.

Honestly you haven't proven much, then to just say that carbon removal is impossible when you rip apart an already blown engine and jump to the idea its impossible to remove carbon with any other method than manual labor. Show us some factual data rather than jam your HEAVILY biased opinion in here with no facts.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

lol, 9k making friends one post at a time

viprez586

iTrader: (5)

You okay bro? I'll be your friend

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I have enough friends, I don't need any more. Well, unless they are hot women with nice bewbs.

Netting proven results? Where? The only thing this thread proves is that sucking water or cleaner into your engine and then taking before and after pictures will show a slight amount of carbon deposits were removed so long as you don't add a couple of drive cycles between taking the pictures.

Believe what you want but there is a potential to do a lot of damage to your engine if you decide to do this on a regular basis. I'll post my opinion on the matter the same as you will post yours. Just call the five most popular builders and ask their opinion on the matter and you will see just how much they vary.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Well, I never did as much test as RIWWP did (thx bro) but I just wanna express my point again,

Mazda is a business and I just don't believe that they gonna issue a TSB which they know they have be billed (lots and LOTS of money in fact) when it doesn't help at all.

Am I your friend 9k still? please ?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Very good point. I can't argue with that.

So it removes the housing from consideration of problems with carbon buildup. Leaving just the rotor and seals as the problem source.

The carbon rotor faces don't cause any sealing problems, though I could see a change in airflow volume and static compression. Carbon is ever so slightly reducing the interior volume of any one stroke, though it would take significant buildup to produce a measurable difference. So we can disregard this impact. The only other impact I could see from carbon buildup on the rotor is a change in combustion efficiency, if the carbon is changing how the fuel condenses on the surface of the rotor. I expect there is a change here, however I can make no guesses at if it would be an improvement or a detriment.

Leaving the seals. Carbon here will be much more of a problem, displacing the seals as it gets behind the seal to the spring, and/or changing the effective shape of the seal.

From what I have seen so far a simple half can of seafoam per rotor has very minimal impact on how much carbon is around the seals. Lots of water did quite a bit more in the correct direction, however it clearly didn't go far enough yet.

A 'simple' decarb will certainly have minimal impact. Is it possible to actually achieve the full result people expect? I don't know. But I'm going to keep trying until I either I find that result or I don't have any methods left to try.

You are correct in that all I've proven so far is that seafoam and/or water will indeed remove carbon to a degree. The benefits of that and proper ways to use that are still open for debate.

Might I eventually figure out a way to effectively decarb? Maybe, maybe not. But I'll report everything I try and the results, both good and bad. Will I destroy my engine in the process? Maybe. But my 8 is barely driven as it is, it's paid off, and it's only a reman


An interesting thought.

Any ideas on how to keep the water heated reasonably for the 30+ minutes needed? I have a couple methods that I could use to keep the water heated, but I am trying to avoid doing anything that others might not have access to, at least for starters. I also suspect that the water in the tubing will have cooled down to ambient quite quickly, probably before it gets to the LIM. And I would expect that it saturates in heat up to the point of boiling when it gets into the engine, before it flashes to steam. I suspect that it wouldn't change the end result. Perhaps if the water entered the engine AS steam? That might produce different results. Good or bad is obviously unknown.

Perhaps using exhaust heat to heat/boil the water in a small diameter tube, like running a length along the exhaust piping, held to it for heat transfer. Probably far more trouble than it's worth.

I'll tuck stuff like that away for now, since I don't expect most people would be willing to go that far.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

what?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

if the decarb thing does zero benefits, why would Mazda released it so dealers can bill the **** out of them ?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

The only reason they offer that service is to delay you from getting an engine (hopefully long enough for you to trade the car in, sell it, or get out of warranty). I had two engines fail from low compression (one at 22k and one at 96k) and both had this service done at the dealer prior to a replacement engine being approved. It didn't do jack **** either time. I have also known a few guys locally who did this procedure on a somewhat regular basis and their engines eventually died from low compression as well.

We are getting off topic but the bottom line is that all of the decarbing methods are pretty much useless. A fulltime water/meth system MAY show some benefits but I have yet see an engine pulled part that had a system on it and failure modes vary so much that it would be hard to see the benefits depending on how it failed.

Oldragger and other who have run it and still had engine failures have never posted pics of their engines when torn down. My guess would be that those engines would show carbon build up as well.

One thing I do know for sure though is that pieces of side seals and apex seals do wonder for removing carbon off the rotors. Just look at the pictures of the engine I tore apart with 22k on it.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

i must have missed where it was suggested to have the dealer do this. not that i would trust them to do it properly anyway lol