Cooling: do's, do not's and suggestions
11-22-2011, 07:55 PM
#27
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11-22-2011, 08:13 PM
#28
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P.S. I've been waiting all these years for a good thread to boost my post count!
(Waits for Team to come on in and say this thread fails)
Last edited by cavemancan; 11-22-2011 at 08:16 PM.
11-22-2011, 08:42 PM
#29
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11-22-2011, 09:27 PM
#30
11-22-2011, 09:40 PM
#31
sorry, my bad.
Look in my signature block. click on the words "Spend Your First $100".
And, do not feel bad about the search. I had to search 4 or 5 times, under my name, to get it to come up. I also can no longer edit that thread for some reason. I was going to try to make it easier to search for. Not sure what is going on.
Look in my signature block. click on the words "Spend Your First $100".
And, do not feel bad about the search. I had to search 4 or 5 times, under my name, to get it to come up. I also can no longer edit that thread for some reason. I was going to try to make it easier to search for. Not sure what is going on.
Last edited by 04Green; 11-22-2011 at 09:46 PM.
11-22-2011, 09:56 PM
#32
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https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=202548
here you go Chris.
here you go Chris.
sorry, my bad.
Look in my signature block. click on the words "Spend Your First $100".
And, do not feel bad about the search. I had to search 4 or 5 times, under my name, to get it to come up. I also can no longer edit that thread for some reason. I was going to try to make it easier to search for. Not sure what is going on.
Look in my signature block. click on the words "Spend Your First $100".
And, do not feel bad about the search. I had to search 4 or 5 times, under my name, to get it to come up. I also can no longer edit that thread for some reason. I was going to try to make it easier to search for. Not sure what is going on.
Edit: I am adding a few of those links to the main post. Thanks for the good post!
Last edited by cavemancan; 11-22-2011 at 10:08 PM.
11-23-2011, 05:33 AM
#33
If what you mean by edit your thread to make it easier too search ... like for example change the title of the thread, you can't.
Once a thread has been created only the Mods can change the title. (just an FYI is you didn't already know)
The ability to edit your posts must only be a set window of time. I'm unable to edit any of my older posts or threads.
I'm sure if I read the Forum rules it would say something about, but I'm not lol.
Last edited by wcs; 11-23-2011 at 05:39 AM.
11-23-2011, 05:50 AM
#34
@wcs:
Yeah, that is what I was thinking. That was one of my first posts and I really wish I had done a better job. I think the the only thing left is to add a post at the end that search will pick up, and then direct folks to the beginning.
@cave:
sorry, also, that thread is a pain to search for, I will work on fixing it. Also, the sig link used to say $100 Thread. I changed it, and have been referring to it wrong. Hope it all helps. Keeping the hot air from getting in front of the radiator was what did it for me.
Yeah, that is what I was thinking. That was one of my first posts and I really wish I had done a better job. I think the the only thing left is to add a post at the end that search will pick up, and then direct folks to the beginning.
@cave:
sorry, also, that thread is a pain to search for, I will work on fixing it. Also, the sig link used to say $100 Thread. I changed it, and have been referring to it wrong. Hope it all helps. Keeping the hot air from getting in front of the radiator was what did it for me.
11-23-2011, 02:24 PM
#35
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Cobb Question
I think I know the answer to this but does anyone know how to set the Fan turn on/off settings on the AP??? Is that why you need the Race Tuner software?
I just placed an order with Cobb to get the Race Tuner software. I need to change the Fan turn on/off settings and I hope this will let me.
I just placed an order with Cobb to get the Race Tuner software. I need to change the Fan turn on/off settings and I hope this will let me.
11-23-2011, 02:41 PM
#36
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I think I know the answer to this but does anyone know how to set the Fan turn on/off settings on the AP??? Is that why you need the Race Tuner software?
I just placed an order with Cobb to get the Race Tuner software. I need to change the Fan turn on/off settings and I hope this will let me.
I just placed an order with Cobb to get the Race Tuner software. I need to change the Fan turn on/off settings and I hope this will let me.
Yes, but you cannot edit your MM tune. So you would have to create your own tune and then make changes. I suggest you read up, you are playing with fire. You can make these changes if you are running your own tune. Also, confirm that MM did not already do this already in his tune.
11-23-2011, 02:52 PM
#37
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Yes, but you cannot edit your MM tune. So you would have to create your own tune and then make changes. I suggest you read up, you are playing with fire. You can make these changes if you are running your own tune. Also, confirm that MM did not already do this already in his tune.
Either way I am almost sure it is not happening at the lower temps but just in case what are the turn on points? When do they shut off? I think I noticed the car idling at 205 + once and the fans were not on but don't quote me on this...I'll pay more attention today.
11-23-2011, 03:51 PM
#38
the harmonics of the fans cause a vibration. over time that vibration was causing the connectors on the power steering harness to loosen just a wee little bit. this caused an interupption in the signal which causes the eps to shut down.
I move the wires around a little bit, removed the connectors from the plastic housings, made a them fit tighter and used copious amounts of shrink wrap etc to cover it. then I added a thick foam wrap around the harness to elimenate the vibration from the fan harmonics. NP since.
I move the wires around a little bit, removed the connectors from the plastic housings, made a them fit tighter and used copious amounts of shrink wrap etc to cover it. then I added a thick foam wrap around the harness to elimenate the vibration from the fan harmonics. NP since.
11-29-2011, 09:33 AM
#39
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the harmonics of the fans cause a vibration. over time that vibration was causing the connectors on the power steering harness to loosen just a wee little bit. this caused an interupption in the signal which causes the eps to shut down.
I move the wires around a little bit, removed the connectors from the plastic housings, made a them fit tighter and used copious amounts of shrink wrap etc to cover it. then I added a thick foam wrap around the harness to elimenate the vibration from the fan harmonics. NP since.
I move the wires around a little bit, removed the connectors from the plastic housings, made a them fit tighter and used copious amounts of shrink wrap etc to cover it. then I added a thick foam wrap around the harness to elimenate the vibration from the fan harmonics. NP since.
11-29-2011, 09:52 AM
#41
I never noticed a negative effect with the screens installed.
In the summer months it gets hot here [above 30*C, although humidity helps (in this case only!!)], and bumper to bumper traffic. Never saw above 197*F
EDIT: I run the cobb, with MM tune, FYI
In the summer months it gets hot here [above 30*C, although humidity helps (in this case only!!)], and bumper to bumper traffic. Never saw above 197*F
EDIT: I run the cobb, with MM tune, FYI
11-29-2011, 10:01 AM
#42
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It is negligible. We were monitoring oil temps in Grungepups car for a long while (he still is actually) and his temps were inline with another stock RX-8's temps and Grungepup has screens. Unless the mesh is really, really small, I don't see them affecting oil temps at all. Also, keep in mind that this is in South Texas during the summer. I installed mesh on my custom cooler setup.
11-30-2011, 08:27 PM
#43
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DIY Cooling Mod
Step1: Take off two or three of the plastic screws that hold the plastic wheel well liner, behind the oil coolers, together.
Step2: Repeat on the opposite side of the car
Step3: Go for a joy ride and make sure you are cruising at 146 MPH or more.
Step4: Be patient...
Step5: Eventually you will hear a flapping noise...Make sure to slow down to 120 ish MPH.
Step6: You should hear a sound like you ran over plastic.
Step7: Pull over
Step8: Inspect wheel wells
Step9: Plastic liners would have misteriously disappeared and you should now have exposed oil coolers which equals more air.
Results: your car should run 20 deg cooler
Step2: Repeat on the opposite side of the car
Step3: Go for a joy ride and make sure you are cruising at 146 MPH or more.
Step4: Be patient...
Step5: Eventually you will hear a flapping noise...Make sure to slow down to 120 ish MPH.
Step6: You should hear a sound like you ran over plastic.
Step7: Pull over
Step8: Inspect wheel wells
Step9: Plastic liners would have misteriously disappeared and you should now have exposed oil coolers which equals more air.
Results: your car should run 20 deg cooler
12-26-2011, 01:21 AM
#44
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Update and Observation
I just installed my new Mazsport water pump and thermostat with the aid of my brother (he did all the work...lol).
Observations:
1) Idle and city driving give normal temperatures in the range of 190 to 199 def F.
Conditions were 70 def F...Hard driving and intentsionally keeping the car in higher rpm's while driving at slow speeds. It once or twice hit 203 deg F but quickly fell once I got to speed again (I.E. more air volume through radiator). Coolant mix of 60% coolant and 40% water.
2) Highway driving gave temps in the range of 172 to 199 deg F.
Conditiond were 65 deg F...Sustained 85 mph driving for 3 hours with frequent bursts of speed in excess of 100 mph. It never once went above 199 deg F but whats worth mentioning is 99% of the time the temp read in the range of 176 to 180 deg F.
3) Based on the above I believe this will have a dramatic affect on racing. I noticed how effeciant the pump is when you get the revs up.
Additional information
- My wheel well lining is gone...see previous post...LMAO
- Stock intake tray was removed to aide in allowing air to travel faster through the radiator. I believe this helped as well.
Note/Question: what temp are the fans supposed to come on? I believe I discovered my cooling issue at idle while AC is on. I believe the second fan is not functioning as suggested previously. I have yet to see that fan come on ever since the new water pump and thermo were installed (Note: I could not see it previously since the stock intake tray was in the way).
Observations:
1) Idle and city driving give normal temperatures in the range of 190 to 199 def F.
Conditions were 70 def F...Hard driving and intentsionally keeping the car in higher rpm's while driving at slow speeds. It once or twice hit 203 deg F but quickly fell once I got to speed again (I.E. more air volume through radiator). Coolant mix of 60% coolant and 40% water.
2) Highway driving gave temps in the range of 172 to 199 deg F.
Conditiond were 65 deg F...Sustained 85 mph driving for 3 hours with frequent bursts of speed in excess of 100 mph. It never once went above 199 deg F but whats worth mentioning is 99% of the time the temp read in the range of 176 to 180 deg F.
3) Based on the above I believe this will have a dramatic affect on racing. I noticed how effeciant the pump is when you get the revs up.
Additional information
- My wheel well lining is gone...see previous post...LMAO
- Stock intake tray was removed to aide in allowing air to travel faster through the radiator. I believe this helped as well.
Note/Question: what temp are the fans supposed to come on? I believe I discovered my cooling issue at idle while AC is on. I believe the second fan is not functioning as suggested previously. I have yet to see that fan come on ever since the new water pump and thermo were installed (Note: I could not see it previously since the stock intake tray was in the way).
Last edited by cavemancan; 01-03-2012 at 10:45 PM.
05-25-2012, 05:42 PM
#45
rev it up
I have moved my battery to the boot and now have a custom CAI so I removed the stock box undertray. Now my radiator is completely unrestricted in its exit path. However, I am now concerned that all the hot air is now entering the engine bay and causing heat build up.
I have removed the seal around the windscreen so some air will escape. At this stage I do not plan on getting a vented hood so I am now planning on making a shroud and redirecting the air so it exits from the under tray. I understand this also helps create negative preassure under the car to help with high speed stability.
I have removed the seal around the windscreen so some air will escape. At this stage I do not plan on getting a vented hood so I am now planning on making a shroud and redirecting the air so it exits from the under tray. I understand this also helps create negative preassure under the car to help with high speed stability.
05-25-2012, 06:37 PM
#46
here is a post for everyones amusement:
I have been trying different approaches in trying to properly cooling this car for years now.
This long message kinda explains what I have now discovered and done with an example of how well it works.
its a lot of info... but I will try to condense it.
Key points addressed in dealing with our cooling system:
1- low speed cooling weakness
2- sustained high load/rpm high weakness
3- possible shut down temperature spikes resulting in metal fatique over time
4- hot spots.
Facts that you need to rememeber when doing cooling system modifications:
1- the system has to have somewhat matched parts
2- the more coolant flow you have the better -UP TO A POINT
3- radiators with a bigger face front will cool better than a thicker one
4- a double past radiator needs much more pressure to flow correctly
5- the radiator has to flow freely enough to supply the water pump
6- the coolant system is basically a closed system and one weakness can ( but shouldnt be) compensated by a stronger part --for example too small of a radiator can be ok if a strong enough fan is used--but dont do that unless you have too
7- proper warm up is as important as peak/cruising temps.
8- oil temps should be no more than 30degrees F higher than coolant , the oil temps should NEVER be lower than the coolant.
Theres more--but you get the idea.
Now over the years I have tried many different approachs. Secondary radiator, better water pump/thermostat, modified the thermostat housing to accept a barrel type stat that flows better, rerouted heater hose lines, coolant blend percentages, fan control modifications, etc etc etc. It always seemed that all these things I did would either, overcool in the cooler months, overcool during cruising on the interstate, delay warm up, wouldnt address low speed cooling well enough ( for me) or just SOMETHING wasnt right. I could cool for the track , but it would overcool for the street. I could cool for the street but then run too hot on the track. You get the idea.
During all this time, I have learned a lot. A whole lot.
I now firmly believe that both water (oem and aftermarket)pumps do not flow enough at rpms under 2.5K. Thats a problem that presently cant be fixed without adding another pump. Enough said. But the aftermarket pump does do a much better job in the higher rpms IF the radiator can flow enough to keep up with it and you have good radiator hoses.
So in trying to determine root causes of my cooling problems and believing that low speed flow/cooling is a problem--how do you address it? No options out there for a better water pump that can cover all these rpms without going to a dual pump setup--I am not completly sold on the ewp--yet. So I decided to compensate the inadequate low rpm flow with a secondary radiator. That helped but it really didnt work without overcooling in other enviroments. Its interesting that I discovered something else while dealing with possible solutions. As below.
. The throttle body heating system and the heater hose takes A LOT of coolant away from the raditor. My rough measurement was 10-15%!!! That coolant never sees the radiator and is never cooled. So using that supply for the secondary radiator was logical--right??. I mean can you imagine how that hotter coolant mixing in with the coolant that is returning from the radiator affects the true deltas?
Ok--I installed a fluid thermostat from Derale ( look it up) to the heater hose and TB coolant hoses and used that to feed the secondary radiator and that worked great. Great results!!!
BUT, I noticed something else. Something I have never been able to do before. The temp flutuations where more narrow and occured much less. Huhhh??
WHY??!! Then it hit me. The derale thermostat only has small coolant passages ( less than 3/8"). That was causing a restriction in the large coolant circuits ( heater and TB combined) we have!! More coolant was flowing through the engine and the pump head pressure was raised!!! That was the defining moment.
So many people have removed the internal restrictor in their heater hoses and I think that after 2005 our cars didnt even come with one! The heater/tb coolant hoses divert too much coolant from our already stressed system AND in doing so reduces the head pressure on the water pump causing it to pump less effectively in the lower rpms. Bingo
So my stable year round cooling package now consists of ( and I dont think all of these items are needed)
1-Mazmart w/p and thermostat--thermostat drilled with one 1/8 inch hole ( i will not go into all those reasons)
2- flex a lite fan controller that activates BOTH ( this is important)fans at 185F
3- a very small open fin design Summit racing cooler 21x 7 mounted directly on the front bumper support ( the back side of the cooler does not have to be open to the air--if it is--ok but it doesnt have to be, but the face of the cooler needs to be in the airflow. That front bumper support is also a HUGE heat sink. Dont forget to open up your grill a little
4- derale fluid thermostat that starts opening at 170F--look it up and read the details.
5- coolant bend of water /coolant 70 W 30 C
6- oem radiator cap
7- oem radiator
8- pull the a/c condensor away from the radiator approx 1 inch
9- proper radiator hoses --the biggest bottom radiator hose you can get.
I think this system would work with the oem pump if you dont go over 7.5K rpms a lot.
The fans activation helps with the low speed demands, but the small secondary radiator also helps at speeds over 5 mph, the secondary radiator, mazmart pump helps a LOT for high load, high rpm and high speed cooling .
I have left out a LOT of details about why this works for me ( pump head pressure requirements, coolant viscosity changes,radiator flow etc etc--but this is the gist of it).
I know you will have more questions.
I will give you a real life repeatable example.
When i go to work, i drive to the inter city and then have to park in a deck 5 floors up. So thats 5 floors up in 1st gear at about 3K rpms. At ambient temps of 80F and regular humidity for this area I will pull into the deck with coolant temps at about 180F. This is with my cooling package consisting of all the above options listed except the secondary rad and fluid thermostat. By the time i get to my parking space 5 floors up my coolant temp is at 200F and the fans are running . It will not go over 200F. Obvious taxing of the cooling system.
Ok I added the small 2nd radiator with the thermostat and i would enter once again with coolant temps at approx 180F ambient etc almost exactly the same.
You ready....coolant temp now at 185F and steady.
Cruise temps on the interstate at 175F , around town --even with a/c on--so far not over 185F
Without that thermostat/restrictor and the same 2nd radiator mounted in the same location--i was over cooled while cruising with temps 155-160 and the parking deck environment would still drive it up to 190-195F.
So I think I have fin ally found my solution.i
Now the real tests will come when the ambient gets 100F here, but I just have to wait for that.
This set up will also cool me on track---no doubt.
Take it for what it is worth.
Neat work on the a/c condenser move
Now off to summit racing to meet with the tech expert from Hedman headers. He has some ideas about headers in a zero overlap engine.
OD
__________________
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most unknowledgeable poster on forum
I have been trying different approaches in trying to properly cooling this car for years now.
This long message kinda explains what I have now discovered and done with an example of how well it works.
its a lot of info... but I will try to condense it.
Key points addressed in dealing with our cooling system:
1- low speed cooling weakness
2- sustained high load/rpm high weakness
3- possible shut down temperature spikes resulting in metal fatique over time
4- hot spots.
Facts that you need to rememeber when doing cooling system modifications:
1- the system has to have somewhat matched parts
2- the more coolant flow you have the better -UP TO A POINT
3- radiators with a bigger face front will cool better than a thicker one
4- a double past radiator needs much more pressure to flow correctly
5- the radiator has to flow freely enough to supply the water pump
6- the coolant system is basically a closed system and one weakness can ( but shouldnt be) compensated by a stronger part --for example too small of a radiator can be ok if a strong enough fan is used--but dont do that unless you have too
7- proper warm up is as important as peak/cruising temps.
8- oil temps should be no more than 30degrees F higher than coolant , the oil temps should NEVER be lower than the coolant.
Theres more--but you get the idea.
Now over the years I have tried many different approachs. Secondary radiator, better water pump/thermostat, modified the thermostat housing to accept a barrel type stat that flows better, rerouted heater hose lines, coolant blend percentages, fan control modifications, etc etc etc. It always seemed that all these things I did would either, overcool in the cooler months, overcool during cruising on the interstate, delay warm up, wouldnt address low speed cooling well enough ( for me) or just SOMETHING wasnt right. I could cool for the track , but it would overcool for the street. I could cool for the street but then run too hot on the track. You get the idea.
During all this time, I have learned a lot. A whole lot.
I now firmly believe that both water (oem and aftermarket)pumps do not flow enough at rpms under 2.5K. Thats a problem that presently cant be fixed without adding another pump. Enough said. But the aftermarket pump does do a much better job in the higher rpms IF the radiator can flow enough to keep up with it and you have good radiator hoses.
So in trying to determine root causes of my cooling problems and believing that low speed flow/cooling is a problem--how do you address it? No options out there for a better water pump that can cover all these rpms without going to a dual pump setup--I am not completly sold on the ewp--yet. So I decided to compensate the inadequate low rpm flow with a secondary radiator. That helped but it really didnt work without overcooling in other enviroments. Its interesting that I discovered something else while dealing with possible solutions. As below.
. The throttle body heating system and the heater hose takes A LOT of coolant away from the raditor. My rough measurement was 10-15%!!! That coolant never sees the radiator and is never cooled. So using that supply for the secondary radiator was logical--right??. I mean can you imagine how that hotter coolant mixing in with the coolant that is returning from the radiator affects the true deltas?
Ok--I installed a fluid thermostat from Derale ( look it up) to the heater hose and TB coolant hoses and used that to feed the secondary radiator and that worked great. Great results!!!
BUT, I noticed something else. Something I have never been able to do before. The temp flutuations where more narrow and occured much less. Huhhh??
WHY??!! Then it hit me. The derale thermostat only has small coolant passages ( less than 3/8"). That was causing a restriction in the large coolant circuits ( heater and TB combined) we have!! More coolant was flowing through the engine and the pump head pressure was raised!!! That was the defining moment.
So many people have removed the internal restrictor in their heater hoses and I think that after 2005 our cars didnt even come with one! The heater/tb coolant hoses divert too much coolant from our already stressed system AND in doing so reduces the head pressure on the water pump causing it to pump less effectively in the lower rpms. Bingo
So my stable year round cooling package now consists of ( and I dont think all of these items are needed)
1-Mazmart w/p and thermostat--thermostat drilled with one 1/8 inch hole ( i will not go into all those reasons)
2- flex a lite fan controller that activates BOTH ( this is important)fans at 185F
3- a very small open fin design Summit racing cooler 21x 7 mounted directly on the front bumper support ( the back side of the cooler does not have to be open to the air--if it is--ok but it doesnt have to be, but the face of the cooler needs to be in the airflow. That front bumper support is also a HUGE heat sink. Dont forget to open up your grill a little
4- derale fluid thermostat that starts opening at 170F--look it up and read the details.
5- coolant bend of water /coolant 70 W 30 C
6- oem radiator cap
7- oem radiator
8- pull the a/c condensor away from the radiator approx 1 inch
9- proper radiator hoses --the biggest bottom radiator hose you can get.
I think this system would work with the oem pump if you dont go over 7.5K rpms a lot.
The fans activation helps with the low speed demands, but the small secondary radiator also helps at speeds over 5 mph, the secondary radiator, mazmart pump helps a LOT for high load, high rpm and high speed cooling .
I have left out a LOT of details about why this works for me ( pump head pressure requirements, coolant viscosity changes,radiator flow etc etc--but this is the gist of it).
I know you will have more questions.
I will give you a real life repeatable example.
When i go to work, i drive to the inter city and then have to park in a deck 5 floors up. So thats 5 floors up in 1st gear at about 3K rpms. At ambient temps of 80F and regular humidity for this area I will pull into the deck with coolant temps at about 180F. This is with my cooling package consisting of all the above options listed except the secondary rad and fluid thermostat. By the time i get to my parking space 5 floors up my coolant temp is at 200F and the fans are running . It will not go over 200F. Obvious taxing of the cooling system.
Ok I added the small 2nd radiator with the thermostat and i would enter once again with coolant temps at approx 180F ambient etc almost exactly the same.
You ready....coolant temp now at 185F and steady.
Cruise temps on the interstate at 175F , around town --even with a/c on--so far not over 185F
Without that thermostat/restrictor and the same 2nd radiator mounted in the same location--i was over cooled while cruising with temps 155-160 and the parking deck environment would still drive it up to 190-195F.
So I think I have fin ally found my solution.i
Now the real tests will come when the ambient gets 100F here, but I just have to wait for that.
This set up will also cool me on track---no doubt.
Take it for what it is worth.
Neat work on the a/c condenser move
Now off to summit racing to meet with the tech expert from Hedman headers. He has some ideas about headers in a zero overlap engine.
OD
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__________________
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Cactus (09-16-2021)
08-20-2014, 05:23 PM
#47
Ok I need help I really suck at electrical . My car started to over heat I don't let it pass 1/2 the stock gauge . I notice only the driver side fan works , the other one didn't turn on and it hit the 1/2 way mark , I took off plug off the second fan ( passenger side ) and when I jump with battery it turn perfect I moved by hand and freely moved . What do I do next . I'm going to turn on again and leave AC off and see if driver side fan turns on , if it's relay witch one do I replace .
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
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