richelesro

Okay. Long shot here...

Has anyone thought of how to put Audi's DSG transmission in a 6-port RX-8? Any ideas on what would be the issues involved in it? How about a shop that would take on such a task?

Thanks!

swoope

iTrader: (5)

im going to just be rude. you do not have enough money.

beers

richelesro

I'm sure I don't, but it'd be interesting to find out what it would take.

Psylence

Who the **** would want to get rid of a REAL MANUAL and put in some technological solution that no one in the car buying public asked for?

God.. the paddle shifted/clutchless manual is even WORSE than an A/T..

That audi tranny is probably much much longer than the gearbox in the 8. it would likely require a total rework of the floorpan of the car, i.e. be totally unfeasible.

Not to mention my prior point: Manual transmisisons without clutch pedals are lame lame lame.

omahawk

A DSG or SMG would be great for some of us with past knee injuries. I cannot shift as fast as I could before I had knee surgery. If you have not had a chance to drive an smg/dsg you need to If you are able you need to ride/drive in the bmw M3 with smg or Audi's new DSG. After your ride/drive you will may come away with a different perspective of the tranny. Don't do the Toyota MR2's it is pretty bad example of SMG.

richelesro

Oh my. Someone who talks before research. Might I suggest some research into the subject?

Other systems that are called "clutchless manuals" or "triptronic" still have a torque convertor in the transmission. Audi's DSG is the first trans with a real clutch (two in fact) that are computer controlled. Acceleration is a constant since the gears are switched from right to left, giving better performance that a manual transmission, no matter who the driver is.

Long story short: Audi's DSG is the first trans that I've heard of that still uses GEARS instead of a torque convertor. Welcome to 2003.

Gord96BRG

Speaking of lame... :p No one asked for? There's HUGE demand for these F1-style transmissions. Every manufacturer (including Mazda) is slapping electronic controls on their slushbox automatics and calling them something-tronic (Tiptronic, Shifttronic, Manumatic, etc.), and Ferrari, Maserati, BMW, Alfa Romeo, even Toyota are offering real semi-manual systems. They are selling VERY well where they are options, Ferrari fits them to nearly 80% of the models where they're available (360Modena and 360Spider). BMW has a very high order rate for the M3's SMG II system as well. LOTS of people are asking for them!

Next - the Audi DSG worse than a slushbox? You really are on drugs. The Audi DSG happens to be the very best of the semi-manual solutions, far better than the Ferrari/BMW/etc. style. VW Group is now using the DSG to replace regular slushbox automatics, and between the DSG style semi-manuals and CVTs, conventional slushboxes are doomed.

DSG trans longer than the RX-8 gearbox? You just felt like whining, right, and didn't care if you made yourself look like an idiot? :p Just what basis could you possibly have for that statement? It's nowhere near true. The real problem is that the DSG as in the current VW/Audis is designed for a transverse engine layout with their FWD/AWD drivetrain. The TT's gearbox could not be adapted to the RX-8 without major re-engineering, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the length of the transmission (good lord, you have not got a clue) nor the floorpan. Borg-Warner could very easily do a version of the DSG for a longitudinal drivetrain that would take up less space than the current RX-8 transmission.

Last point - you'd better make some calls to Mazda quick, because the plans right now are to have a SMG-style semi-manual transmission option in the RX-8 for the 2006 model year.

Regards,
Gordon

richelesro

I thought the transaxle issue would be the problem. Oh well.

Psylence

I know how the DSG gearbox works. I know that there is no torque converter, and that it uses clutches.

Fact is, I dont care. I like a CLUTCH PEDAL. Maybe I just feel like thats the way a car should be driven. I don't care about what F1 cars use..I don't give 2 ***** what Ferrari does regarding their gearboxes. I consider all of that **** to be the dumbing down of the automobile.

Call me a throwback, moron or whatever, Gord, I don't care. I like what I like, and know what I feel is right in an automobile. If people cannot handle or deal with a clutch pedal, then just get an automatic and be done with it. Sure there is a demand for sequential manuals.. from people who can't hack a REAL manual and want a shortcut.

And my guess on the size of the Audi's DSG box was just that, a guess. I still say its way to frickin big to ever fit in the '8, although the transverse layout is a greater issue...

magixpuma

Guys keep it short and simple UR A MEAN BASTERD Psylence

richelesro

It sounds to me like Psylence has never been in LA traffic where it takes 20 minutes to go half a mile...

I would like the ability to go into automatic mode when dealing with a situation like this, or when I mess up my knee on a motorcycle again, while not having to sacrifice performance and control. That's my reasoning.

wakeech

easy boys... he flew off the handle but let it slide.

from the question posed above, how could you expect answers that were any better?? Mazda really is going to come out with an SMG tranny for the 8 in the future as it is, so dont' worry about it.

ArvinC

...that after driving a BMW M3 with SMG, the clutch pedal may just disappear when it comes to the world of performance automobiles. A couple of reasons why:

1.) Performance - Sure, during an upshift the best among us MAY match or beat the quickness of the computer-controlled clutch (Ferrari claims shifting times of less than a second for a complete shift in their system BTW!), but it's during the downshifts that these systems shine. Perfect rev-matching, auto blipping the throttle, super-quick clutch action...the system will always be "on-power" and will most definately be smoother overall than a manual-clutch tranny.

2.) Cost - While these systems are usually more costly options, once they are more "integrated" into a manufacturer's line-up, it will save them money in the long-run. Think about it: a manufacturer will only need to offer this one gearbox to satisfy 99.9% of drivers. It can be programmed to have a fully-auto mode, shift-only mode and anywhere inbetween. Like all car systems, they will become smaller, lighter and easier to make. Hopefully, the savings will trickle down to the consumer. Also, since all these systems have fail-safes to insure they don't destroy themselves, you can get better wear and life out of the individual parts. No damage from a missed shift, clutch abuse or just being a bad driver!

3.) Ease of use - I fully admit, one of the pleasures of driving a manual is the notion that it does take more effort to drive than simply selecting "D". But many of us gladly make the effort because we enjoy the added control and performance that a clutch offers. Well now, all that performance (probably even more!) is still there, but you don't have to work as hard. More focus, more energy can be now turned to keeping the car headed the right way, nicking the apex just right, applying enough braking, etc. I have to believe that this will make for a easier, and faster, drive. You still pick the gear, you still have control over the entire rev range, you're just missing a pedal. And if you want a perfect launch, put it into launch mode (SMG and Ferrari have 'em), press down on the brake, push the accelerator to the floor and wait for the light. When it goes green, lift off the brake and hold on...the clutch drops with just the right ammount of revs (no fried tires or bogging!) and you flick through the gears as fast as you hit the redline.

It maybe the "dummying" of the driving experience or maybe it's just the evolution of auto technology. But it can't be doubted that there are advantages to having a computer control the clutch, no matter what type of driver you are. It's as close to "having your cake and eating it, too" as the automotive industry has come up with.

Just my opinions, of course! :D

Arvin

Psylence

I've sat in bumper to bumper traffic on I-95 for hours, creeping forward a bit at a time. Can CA be worse?

It *is* the dummying of auto technology. As far as I am concerned no true auto enthusiaist would so willingly turn over control of so many vehicle systems to a computer.

****, the SMG's and DSG all have AUTOMATIC modes. That's a load of crap.

I'm all for sequential gearboxes, if they are done motorcycle style. At least those have an actual clutch. But when you surrender control of that to a computer, all you have is a glorified automatic, with "street cred." Lame.

therm8

Wow, fairly heated...

I personally like the idea of sequential gearboxes. And I still consider myself a "true" auto enthusiast. My guess is that within 5-10 years you won't be able to get anything other than a sequential tranny in most vehicles. Somebody here is gonna have to get used to buying used cars.

I've seen numbers for both Ferrari and BMW quoting 50 millisecond shifts. 300 milliseconds for the MR-S. I doubt there's a human out there that can compete with 0.05 seconds.

I want a sequential tranny simply because I like Manual transmissions, however the doc said give up the clutch or go through knee surgery again. So no clutch it is.

WHealy

Therre's an interesting read in the latest copy of Road and Track comparing the DSG in the Audi TT with the SMG in a 3 series...

Stras

I was shifting my 69 z-28 with a REAL rockcrusher m-22 at the track in 1973. a little fancy footwork let off gas a bit and jam shifter and gaspedal and my trap times went down .03 shifting without useing the clutch is real old trick boys.not for everyday stuff but yeah it works on most cars if you get your timeing just right.I drove my friends 360 spider ferrari and it took some getting use to but is really nice. you can have both hands on the wheel and shift without all the bodymovements leading you to be able to concentrate on the shift,rpm timeing for the best performance driving.He also has a 930 turbo(LOVE THAT CAR)

needless to say I bought a 2004 six speed RX8 and only have had 5 auto cars out of the 35 cars I have owned. I just like being an intagrel part of the drivetrain.
I would look forward to a real version F1-style transmission on the RX8 maybe we will see one some day.I am really hoping for a turbo model soon hope by 2006 they have one out. I heard somewhere it is in the works,hope it's true

310Guy

I drove that Audi for three days. I participated in a marketing research program for Infiniti (drove the Audi along with other coupes during a two week period). That transmission is AWESOME. Any clown who says it's lame is... well, lame themselves.

Psylence

Does it have a clutch pedal? No?

Guess I'll drive it when I'm *actually* lame then..

richelesro

See, all I'm hearing is that because it doesn't have a clutch pedal it sucks. It has a clutch, so that isn't the issue. What if I said that if it had a computer it sucked? Go back to vacuum lines. The logic is completely idiotic because we all know that a carb is a lot harder to tune and control than a EFI. A clutch pedal does equal performance (it's actually a hinderance in this case), ease of use (no comment needed), or even define being an enthusiast (try telling F1 drivers that they're lame because they don't have a clutch pedal and see where it gets you). In short, your logic doesn't work out.

Psylence

Ok.. so basically you want to be more detached form teh driving experience so that you can "pretend" to be more of an F1 driver.

Your logic sucks. Your logic sucks because it automatically assumes that technology is better. Who cares if its faster. Are you racing? On the street? No. But hey, if you want to be less involved in the driving expereience go right ahead. I hear Mercedes has some lovely adaptive cruise control coming, or is that available now?

Or in the interest of ease of use/high speed.. how about just taking the train, since you seem to like less involvement with the whole experience.

Just keep telling yourself that it's not an automatic...

megauo

What defines the 'real feeling' in a car for me are power on demand, sound and acceleration. Shifting gears is just something that I would get rid of! It's just the consequece of the bad torque characteristics of the internal combutsion engine.

So I'm a CVT fun, but DSG is definitely a step in the right direction!

Tamas

Maximos

Driving is, and ought to be, for the enthusiast, a craft requiring sustained discipline and practice over time for the attainment of mastery. The enthusiast is not concerned merely or solely with his lap times, acceleration times, or the speed with which some one system of an automobile can be operated in isolation from the entirety of the driving experience.
The enthusiast is concerned to master his automobile either to the limits of his ability, or that of the car; such mastery requires expertise in the operation of all of the systems and controls of the car, to the end that the car effectively becomes an extension of the driver, guided almost by the mere thought of a control input.
DSGs and F1 transmissions essentially shortcircuit a substantial part of what is involved in learning to drive well, to master an automobile - namely, precisely that ability to "juggle" the need to change gears with all of the other inputs required during an enthusiastic drive. They are shortcuts - cheats, if you will - allowing the "driver" to focus on those things which the vulgar consider to be the essence of driving: strong acceleration and, just maybe, the fastest line through a series of corners. But true performance driving is about more than those things; it is about achieving speed through skill, as opposed to just going fast. (Which is why drifting is more interesting than F1 these days: F1 cars, with their ridiculous aero packages, stability, traction and launch controls, automatic shifting, and etc. have transformed the sport into a matter of which driver has the best reflexes, which team the best pit strategy, and which cars won't blow up. Fine if that's all you care about, but it is not racing as racing has always be understood.)

Maximos

Those newfangled "clutchless manuals", whether DSG, SMG or F1 are really little more than technologically clever Cliff's Notes for performance driving. You might be able to pass your lit exam by reading the Cliff's Notes for The Brothers Karamazov, but you cannot legitimately claim to have mastered the ideas, spirit and subtleties of the book. The same applies to these neo-manuals.

megauo

Some years ago the hardtail was the only MTB known. Nowdays none question the advantage a fully can provide. So in my opinion mastering any kind of technology needs skill and practice but the next generation of technology ultimately gives better performance. I'ts up to the driver then to choose which car to master (if he is willing to stretch the limits).

Tamas