½mv²

Hopefully this thread will be less annoying than the 100's of previous "OMG WHAT MODS SHOULD I DO??" threads due to the fact that I've actually done a lot of homework.


First off, let me clarify what I'm hoping to get out of this thread: Facts.
Unlike most of the "What now" threads, I'm not looking for you guys to make up my mind for me. I've read a ton of threads regarding the pros and cons of lots of different mods, and I just want to make sure that I've filtered out all the BS from the facts before I base a several hundred dollar purchase on them.



Secondly, let me clarify what I'm hoping to get out of my money: Lateral G's.
I don't care very much for speed. In fact, I don't care at all. If the RX-8 had 90hp I'd still love it. I don't do anything competative in my car, so I have no need to worry about track/lap times and the like. The one and only thing I really give a crap about is handling. Taking a left turn at a 4-way intersection with the cruise control set 10mph over the speed limit is where I get my kicks. If the visibility is good, I take every turn like there's a gold cup waiting on the other end of it.




With the exception of MazdaSpeed Sport Shocks/Springs, my car is bone stock. Now, as far as I know, when it comes to improving your handling, there are only 4 things you can improve: Springs, Shocks, Sways/braces, and weight. As of yesterday, the first two have been taken care of, and I'm not about to gut my interior or go CF-crazy, so that leaves me with only one choice left.
...Here's where my indecision spawns from...
I've read a *LOT* of the threads on aftermarket sways & braces (I've been wanting to upgrade mine since I bought the car), and it seems like every time I think I've found the information I've been looking for, someone jumps in and wages war against the "facts." Here's a short summary of all that I remember reading, in the order I read it:

Someone will start a thread saying that replacing the front strut tower brace produced a seemingly stiffer ride. There's instantly retorts saying that the stock strut tower bar is fine; any upgrade produces only a placebo effect. BS is quickly called by many people who AutoX, and say the difference can be seen in laptimes. The hardcore fabricators/engineers/racers start explaining the physics behind it, saying there's no way that a stiffer bar does anything. After much arguing, someone eventually feels the need to play the "even if you're right, and the handling isn't improved, the MS strut bar braces the master cylinder, which helps braking" card. The arguement then becomes about whether or not the master cylinder brace is needed, as many who AutoX testify they've never had a problem with their brakes going soft in the first place.
Final conclusion regarding the front tower strut brace?
...
...
...
...there is none!


There's a similar argument for the rear strut tower brace. It's usually another back-and-forth "yes, it helps", "no, it doesn't" argument that ends off-topic and with no questions answered. Some say Mazda didn't put one on there because it wasn't needed. Some say that frame behind the rear seats acts as the brace. Some say that the more stiffness you can get back there the better, and it's more noticeable than upgrading the front...
Once again, the final verdict is non-existant.



Now, when it comes to sways, the threads are equally uninformative, but in a totally different way. What I mean is, no one seems to say much of anything. Someone posts that they got them, everyone says "oooo - nice", one person will ask "hey - does it feel any better?" which is followed by a "yes," and then the thread is over! No one seems to question it or offer their 2 cents - it's just like a univerally accepted "yes - they help"...
...but buy how much (if at all, assuming it's not placebo) is never discussed in depth.



So here's what I'm looking for:
Which strut(s)/sway(s) are actually worth the money? Like I said, I take turns hard as hell all the time, so I'll notice something as small as a .01g boost. The thing is will any piece(s) of the MazdaSpeed suspension give me that boost?

He||hammer

iTrader: (8)

The ones I want are the 4 Point Autoexe Its $600 on Japanparts.com

½mv²

If I'm going to get struts/sways, they're going to be MazdaSpeed.

Plus, that doesn't answer my questions at all - are these necessary? Do they do anything? Will I even notice the difference?


And lastly, I've heard (on these forums) that the Autoexe strut braces can sometimes harm the car. There are certain parts of the car that are made to flex slightly, and bars like these that have additional contact points can cause those flex-points to move (can no longer bend in one spot, so it bends in another), which can cause your frame to bend, windsheild to crack, or cause bolts/hinges/ect. to fray/strip/crack. However, I have no idea if any of this is true or BS.

½mv²

uhh... bump?


Can no one offer any insight?

What else can I do to improve my handling?

Are the MS struts & sways worth the extra money?

½mv²

...you guys suck

CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

Sorry I can't offer any insight for the struts/sways dilemma, but you seem to be forgetting a very important element in the handling equation - tires/wheels. If you have the stock 18 inchers, those things are _heavy_... Inversting in lighter wheels will help. And better tires obviously will give you higher g's (at the expense of some wear)

NgoRX8

iTrader: (1)

^haha you beat me to it... tires are definitely important for handling.

½mv²

Don't 4 new tires and rims cost more than the full MS sway/brace set? And I don' think my wallet can support the constant drain of buying new 19"+ tires every 10,000 miles.

The MS springs/shocks will cost me ~$500 once every 60,000 miles.
The MS sways/braces would cost me ~$1000 once every 120,000 miles.
Larger Rims & Tires would cost me ~$2500 the first time, and another ~$1200 every 10,000 miles.

Aren't there any more long term investments in the suspension area?

Georgia8er

Why would you have to replace your sway bars and strut tower connectors every 120k? Those aren't parts that wear out in the normal life of a car. Or I may be misreading what you have wrote.

I put a Racing Beat rear sway bar on, and it definitely tightened things up. I don't notice it much in a long curve, but it's very noticeable switching lanes on the freeway.

½mv²

I picked 120,000 as an arbitrary number. I didn't want to say "forever" because they do eventually lose their stiffness, and 200,000 sounded a little optimistic.

Regardless, the point I was trying to get across is that I'm looking for long-term improvements. Tires wear too fast and cost too much. I'd rather max out the car's potential before I dish out tons of cash for rims & tires.

RotarySpirit

I understand what you are going after here, but it still seems to me like you are just asking for someone to say 'yes, that's good' to a particular brand of strut or sway bar. I'm not sure what you are hoping to gain in knowledge from this because you are asking the same collection of people their opinions on an issue that you've already stated there is no consensus on.

Unless you are asking for specific mathematic values of the stiffness of the struts/sways your best bet is to find a decent after market item and go for it. If you're lucky, maybe you know someone with an 8 that has those after market parts and will let you drive their car around.

Either way, if you are stuck on getting either struts or sways, I would get the sways over the struts as that seems to provide a more noticeable feel in stiffness.

½mv²

It's not the brand I'm having trouble with. If I'm going to buy anything, it's going to be MazdaSpeed. My delema is that I don't know where to go next...

Strut braces?
Sway bars?
Lighter Rims?
Stickier Tires?
Weight Reduction?


First of all, I don't even know if the above 5 things are my only 5 options at this point. Is there a mod I haven't thought of yet? Are these really my only remaining options?


Secondly, of these options, are any of them going to be noticeable? I'm not expecting any of these to be as dramatic as the suspension upgrade, but I don't want to spend money on an upgrade that I won't really get use out of, either. For example, I don't track or AutoX, so would I even put sways/braces to use by taking hard turns on Houston backroads? Also, what about weight reduction? Can I shed enough pounds to feel a difference while still maintaning a passenger-friendly 4-seater?





I guess what I'm looking for is a "what would you do next in my situation" from everyone else. I know some people think the sways/braces are pure placebo, but, given the other choices, would recommend I go that direction next when weighed against the other choices.

RotarySpirit

IMO, the suspension was the best thing to do. The car is already quite aggressive in the corners and you aren't going to find much that is going to improve that, especially if you aren't cornering really hard (i.e., everyday driving). It sounds like you like to take the corners hard though, so who knows. The next best thing would be lighter rims and good tires, to me. Tires can make a world of difference and shaving pounds off with lighter rims is always a plus.

I'm sure you could feel a difference installing after market struts and sways, but would they make that much of a difference? I don't really know. That's a personal opinion I think.

Weight reduction is great, but it also means sacrificing convenience and comfort in many cases, as well as the fact that you would most likely have to take quite a bit out to have a noticeable difference. You could take things like your speakers out and reduce weight, but I like having mine in personally. There are other parts that you can replace with lightweight ones, like your flywheel. Like I said though, I think you would have to replace a good number of parts (and that will be expensive) to really feel much of a difference. Still, every little bit helps.

The other option is carbon fiber replacements for parts like your hood.

I cannot think of anything else that would be a normal upgrade that would help the handling.

Georgia8er

Take out the air conditioning system if you really want to decrease weight, probably shave off a good 150 lbs. But, that would be way into the sacrificing convenience for weight category.

I doubt in everyday driving you're going to see a lot of difference with any mods you have mentioned, besides going with new, stickier tires. Even then, are you going to find places where it really matters? Since you're set on Mazdaspeed stuff, why not just put on the pieces you can when you can afford it, then you are "maxing out" your car's potential while maintaining the brand identity you want.

CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

You never mentioned cost being a (primary) concern in your first post. However, let me elaborate on my point.

First of all, it's not 19" wheels you want, but 17". A good lightweight set of forged rims. And slightly stickier tires (it's up to you what tradeoff of wear/traction you want... there are lots of threads around here with reviews).

As for your math... rims are a one-time investment, but tires... you are going to be buying fresh tires at some point anyway... It's not going to run you 1200 every 10k. The price difference between a set of new stockers and a set of quality tires will be maybe 300-500 every 10k, if that. However, the increase in performance will be more dramatic than anything you can accomplish on the suspention side. Keep in mind you are gaining not only from the increased traction, but also from the reduced unsprung weight (and reduced rotational inertia) from lighter (and smaller diameter) wheels.

Just trying to maximse "bang for your buck"

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

What most people say about strut tower braces is true- the chassis of the RX-8 is ridiculously stiff courtesy of Mazda. They don't see that much load. But if you're really on the fence about them, then buy a set, throw them on, and go for a spin. If you can feel a difference, keep 'em, if not, put up for sale. You mentioned the Mazdaspeed bars, so I'm possitive someone will ****** them up for a fair price.

Sway bars will give you a huge improvement. Add a set of beefier endlinks while you're at it. Larger diameter sways will see higher loads than stock sways, and could possibly bend you stock endlinks, depending on how aggressively you drive.

And tires are uber important! The stock tires are nothing to write home about. Replacing your heavy stock 18's for lightweight 18's or even 17's if you're hardcore is worth it. But you can get a nice 18x8.5" rim that weights under 20-lbs for a decent price- look at Gram Lights and 5Zigens. If you want even lighter look at Volks or SSR's, but they will be more costly. Tires will make a HUGE difference, though. A nice, aggressive tire will do wonders for your handling. And if you wear them out in 10,000 miles you're driving the **** out of your car. Or maybe I just go slow

It really depends on what kind of cash you have right now. If you have $2800-$3300 then I would do wheels/tires. If you have less, sways and endlinks would be a great improvement.