Syndacate

Hey,

I'm looking at buying an 8 (don't know much about them) to run in SCCA Solo CS/daily (and by daily I really kind of mean 'weekend' because I ride my bike 99% of the time).

Anywho, I can't afford a newer one (well I can, but 'pleasure budget' doesn't allow for it on any level). So I'm looking at early G1's, like '04-'06 ballpark.

Just want to make sure I got some things straight...

NO differences between the '04 to '10's (any years in between), right? It seems when people list the gens they specify '05+, I was wondering if there was something about the '04's.... But from what I've looked into, if you get a normal trans, all of them from '04 to '10 have the 6sp sync box with 247bhp? I just want to make sure I'm in the clear before I continue my search that pretty much any '04-'10 is fair game, and that there's no ugly ducklings, if you will.

Thanks! .

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Have you read the new owner's thread?

I am guessing not, since it notes the generation differences, the transmission differences for different years, the "247bhp" isn't accurate for any year, and the problems earlier models were more prone to, etc...

Start there first. The link is in my sig.

Syndacate

I didn't realize there was anything after the first response - my bad .

I got the 247 from Wikipedia:
Mazda RX-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have heard the 238 bhp around while looking, though. Though I see via the thread you pointed me to that the numbers at the crank are a big vague, it seems.

Though from what I understand anything in the timeframe I'm looking (like '04-'07ish) that's manual will be 6sp (as 5 wasn't sold here) and will put down the (I'll correct it: ) 238hp, this correct? Obviously early years are more problem prone, but I meant assuming everything is working 100%, if there were any major changes, ie.. sometimes manus decide to bump the power 20hp with a flash in the middle of a gen or put stiffer springs in or something for no particular reason. Just wanted to make sure there was nothing like that, I didn't find anything like that.

I'll read that complete thread tonight when I get a sec.

EDIT:
Thanks for the reply and the thread link btw .

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Correct, the crank hp is quite vague. The 6sp MT 6-port was originally 250hp ~(247bhp), then revised to 238hp, then a measurement change by the SAE dropped that to 232hp. 282bhp and 225bhp are also both quoted from elsewhere in the world on the exact same engine. There are still people that disbelieve all of these numbers, and say it's even lower because they can't believe we have more drivetrain loss than piston engines.

Part of the problem with the measurement is that a completely brand new and 100% healthy RX-8 can have a nearly 20whp swing, between 180whp and 200whp. The major reason for the swing is most likely inconsistent seal tolerances in the engine when it was built.

2004-2008 are Series 1
2009-2012 are Series 2
Same power for all of them, though Series 2 had many mechanical changes

If autocross is your primary use for it, then a base 'Sport' 2004 manual transmission is what you will want. It's the lightest of all the years with the same drivetrain. Not actually daily driving it means that with low mileage accrual, there won't be many of the long term things to worry about.

Syndacate

Gotcha. I'm not sure how people can argue much with engine dyno numbers...I'm assuming somebody's engine dyno'ed one at some point..

Wow, 20 is a pretty HUGE swing, but I have heard tons of info (I'm no expert by any means) on the seal tolerances of rotaries, so that makes sense and I'm okay with that .

Yeah, by G1 (gen 1) I meant series 1. I'm used to referring to them as gens, my b. I didn't even bother looking at ANYTHING for the gen II's because they're out of the price point I'm looking at, lol.

Yeah, I'll "daily drive it", but I def won't rack up 10k a year or whatever teh average is. Typically I try to get the cars around town once every week, 2 tops, get them out, moving, lubing, blow off the carbon, etc. Typically coincide trips with groceries and such.

Then there's obviously distance to events.

So why an '04 sport package? Did it change in '05 or was there a lack of offering? I'm assuming this isn't the same as the GT versions, I see around.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Actually there is only 1 published engine dyno that I am aware of, and that one was right about 242hp. But zero information on what kind of dyno it was done on or anything, so not really something we can rely on.

That is assuming everything is healthy. It can swing by nearly 30whp just from ignition health level.

A good way to think about it is that Mazda squeezed 242 (or whatever) power out of a 1.3L that used to only put out ~110hp. If you take any piston engine and then double it's power, you can easily find ways to make it lose ~10% power from something not being at it's peak. It's a fine line that the engine sits on, without much tolerance to quality / health before it falls off.

For 2004-2005, the Base is just no package added, but since all manual transmissions got the "Sport Package" added automatically, the "base" trim for the Manuals is referred to as the Sport. The Touring and Grand Touring packages added additional stuff on top of that.

The reason I say 2004 is simply from a weight perspective. Every year there were minor changes that did slowly increase the weight. The difference between 2004 and 2005 is negligible, but it does exist if you are a purist. The GT versions you see are the heaviest trims for their respective years, starting out a bit over 3,000lbs. The Sport is in the 2,800s. Makes for a noticeable difference for autocross. Not to mention the GT also had leather seats, so you slide around a lot more than the cloth ones. The main weight gain for Touring is the moonroof.

Just a suggestion though, given your stated goals.

The way to identify a Sport trim is to look at pics of the interior to make sure there aren't any seat heater switches (just rearward of the shifter), that it is manual from the shifter (many dealers put 'manual' for ATs because of the shifter paddles on the ATs), and exterior pics to ensure no fog lights and no moonroof.

Syndacate

Yeah, true. Can't believe there's only 1 :-\.

Yeah, you make a good point, most 1.5-2.0 will ball-park 100-180 all motor, assume the high end, the ITR makes what, 185? from a 1.8. So that's 103bhp/liter. The 182bhp/liter from the 8 is strung pretty high, comparatively. Easy to see where that difference is made up.


Ah, I see. Since this would also be a DD, I wouldn't mind the GT, but yeah, from an 'absolutes' perspective, definitely makes sense in '04/'05 to go with base.

Thanks for the info .

j9fd3s

i have a base and a GT and i must say i like the GT better.

although if you're going racing the base is lighter on the same suspension and tires, so i think you start there. plus the cloth does keep you in place

i'm local too, and there are plenty of cars around to look at/choose from.

lets see, in CA you need to buy a car with a smog certificate, the cats go bad, and the only legal one is OEM for $1354.92

Syndacate

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about sliding around, I'm a big guy. The extra 200lbs or so does make a pretty decent difference, but do remember, this wouldn't be like a track-only race car. I'll gladly sacrifice 200lbs of extra weight for some additional features (depending on what they are, of course). You can make up 200lbs with driving in stock classing (until nationals, anyway, then you need a lot of driving, haha). I like moonroofs because it's a nice place to put my gopro and enjoyable on sunny days, but there's nothing I really crave besides AC on those hot *** days....CC is nice too, bit sad that my SRT4 has no cruise .

Realistically I'm not too picky about features outside of AC, but depending on what they are I have no prob trading weight.

I just went through a huge life-******* crisis in my life that I have to deal with (which like anything in life, requires money), so while I'm making a pretty decent salary, this was such a huge ***-******* that it's going to take me a bit to get back on my feet 100% financially. So I'm kind of taking the "I'm going to buy something stock and kick back while I work my way back up to my feet" approach to things, if that makes any sense (probably not, lol). Besides, I'm living in Santa Clara, I don't have a house where I can do work myself, so I'm limited to stuff you can do with ramps, without losing fluids (ie. oil, brakes, etc.). So that all being said, this is as much a 'toy' for my autoX'ing as it is a DD and overall enjoyable car. Not going ***** to the wall race car, not right now, so weight isn't of the largest importance, atm.

There's actually an '04 in the classifieds in OH which just had its engine replaced 20k ago (120k total). I'm pretty interested but ****, I don't want to fly out to OH and spend 3 days driving the stupid thing back..

EDIT:
On the above note, I've made like 10 trips cross country, so driving from there back isn't too concerning to me less the day I have to take off of work. I'm not objective to long drives (most of the time).
/EDIT

I'd actually like to get it out of California if possible, god knows I'm sure they found a way to bolt some useless emissions bullshit onto the side of it which robs 20hp in order to take away 1ppm of NOX emissions. Though if I find for certain there's absolutely no differences I won't object to it...there just typically is a difference, at some level or another.

As for the SMOG cert, car won't be registered in CA.

Hope that clears things up as to my goals (probably clear as mud at this point, lmao).

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

There is no CA specific variants of the RX-8, which is a bit of a blessing there.

Of course, our cat is quite expensive...

Syndacate

You sure? It's so rare that there's no a "California" version. Pretty much every Honda has one, even if there's no difference there's a difference, because parts are separated by KL and KA for CA emissions legal or not.

The cat isn't much more expensive than most OEM cats...people simply don't buy OEM cats most of the time :-\. They buy OEM replacements.

Thankfully it's not going on the road in CA so I don't have to worry about that as of now.

Just saw your location btw, I grew up in lower NY, right on the PA boarder.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I am sure. I had to fight with the CA spec emissions system on my 99 Miata, wishing I had purchased a Fed emissions version. Fully aware of the variants. For the RX-8, there wasn't any difference for CA.

I don't think any Mazda since the early 2000s had a split variant, probably because it's cheaper to make it legal for CA and then just use that design on everything.

j9fd3s

every Rx8 has AC and CC, in the US.

actually the Rx8 is perfect for that, there isn't much you can do that actually improves anything. really you can put some good shocks (koni/bilstein) on it, tires, alignment, and you're pretty much done.

i wouldn't go to ohio, car will be rusty. with my #1, i flew to LA and picked it up, it was a fun trip. #2 i flew to vegas, which was also a fun trip, although its kind of a long drive, and the car had enough surprises that it probably wasn't worth doing.


the Rx8 seems to be the same everywhere in the world, and the only real difference in a California car is probably the sticker on the hood, and even then the car i picked up in Nevada is a California emissions car, so maybe they all are.

BTW California is making me get the vin certified on the Nevada car, so if you do have to register yours in CA, the process is stupid.

Syndacate

Yeah, makes sense. Though it's surprising how many vehicles have extra emissions **** bolted onto it for CA crap. It's annoying . Typically they just find some way to inline the **** and then block it off on non-CA versions...but ****, in the 70's/80's Honda commissioned Keihin to make a separate damn carb casting for the CA for all the hoses for the charcoal canister.

If that's the case, anything else is pretty much just frosting for me . Moonroof is nice, because it gives me a place to mount my gopro for autoX (inside). Though that's not a must (that being said, I've never owned a car without a moon roof, so I'm not sure where I would mount it inside, lol). Need to place that inside to get driver input, hrm. I'd have to come up with something if I were to not get a moonroof.

Yeah, that was part of the appeal. There's not much you can do unless you want to boost it, which won't be cheap, so there's no sense doing anything, realistically. Get some nice koni yellows or something and have at it! . Pretty much all I can do at this point, kick back with a stocker until I collect myself.

Yeah, guy seems honest by the ad (go to the classifieds, it's one of the top). Said its been through one winter. I lived in New England my whole life, one winter won't rust a car. So if it's rusty, then there's most likely lies being had. Though yes, I agree with your statement in general, about staying away from a car from that area.

The nice aspects, though, is the engine was just replaced 20k ago (120k total), so the '04 oil issues are gone, and it's basically a new car as far as the engine is concerned (also had the clutch replaced). That sounds pretty appealing to me. I don't have the facilities right now to be swapping motors - even 13B's as small as they are.

As for the drive, I'm not looking to drive far, but it's not the end of the world if I do. As I said, I don't mind long trips, hate not going to work on a Friday or something....but if I can get a good deal on a car and have to drive, I'm not too concerned. The only thing that sucks is going out to wherever to get the car, then finding out the owner lied and it has more issues than meets the eye - that part sucks. Also, the cars in the year range I'm interested in having oil issues doesn't help either.

The good thing from buying in CA is you can drive it back without putting....'not quite legit' plates on it. Can't do that in many states, as registrations (and more specifically, plates) typically aren't transferable.

EDIT:
Here's a link to that classified I was looking at. Not sure if anybody knows the guy on the forums.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8s-sale-w...247900-243254/
/EDIT

It might have also started off life in CA...or they broke them up by divisions and that was like a south-west US division. But yeah, it may be all, too. Though the fact that they even differentiate it scares me :-\.

...

CA is pathetic when it comes to management of cars. I would never bring a car INTO this state with their bullshit emission SCAMS. There's no other place in the damn country where a cop can make you pop your hood "just because", and there's no other place in damn country where you need stickers on pipes to make them "environmentally safe." It's a bunch of BS. I have no problem being environmentally conscious but the **** Cali pulls with emissions is utterly retarded. They have some broke-as-**** 19 year old kid fighting at the REF inspection to get his heap of **** 91 Honda to pass, meanwhile there's an '07 Hemi 5.7 next to him dumping out 4x the emissions with a driver with a heavy foot whom has a truck bed in mint condition because it's never used.

^ Awesome system.

j9fd3s

Nevada was $8 for a temporary registration, all they wanted was the vin, they didn't ask for anything else! CA was $167, and its signed and double stamped and all this malarkey.

i'm a sucker for yellow, i like that! i ran the vin, and the engine was done @99,076miles. its a sport package too, so its got the xenon headlights, foglights, DSC, but no moonroof.

it does need the MSP16 recall, as it somehow hasn't been done.

this one does not say california emissions, although there's no f-ing difference once its a used car, and in fact it might be better as there are aftermarket cats for the rest of the world for $300.


mine was sold new in nevada, i guess it makes sense to make any western car CA stickered.




no argument there! i've considered just going to oregon registrations, its 10X less money, and less hassles.

Syndacate

That's pretty good. I like CA's system where you just take the damn thing. But that's about as much of CA's system as I like. I would much rather go to the DMV to get temp anything if it meant not having all the CA emissions BULLSHIT.

Yeah, I do like that color too, not a sucker for it, but meh, I like it. Yeah, I saw the 100k engine change, so at 120k that means the engine is almost new as far as I care. The DSC can be FULLY disabled, correct? I don't care if it starts every time when the car does, just that its able to be fully disabled with no stupid side effects. The moonroof thing is kind of annoying, because all my cars have always had moon roofs now I need to find a new place to stick my gopro where I can see driver input as well as the course...may need to double camera it O.o. Not the end of the world, though, by any means.

Yeah, assuming it's the original ECU, and I have no reason to think it's not, then it would need the re-flash at the dealership. That's free, though, right? Also, do you know if cars that didn't get the recall were getting fucked up? (ie. was it lack of power and everything was okay, or was it lack of power and the engines **** the bed at 50k because of it)

Yup. If you bring a car into CA that didn't start in CA (ie. non-CA emissions), it's still subject to all the SMOG and CARB bullshit, right?

Gotcha, def. a possibility.

Yeah, I'm keeping my cars registered in NY, where I moved from. I have a residence there..."where it would be parked the majority of the time...". OR would be nice, but I have no residence there.

j9fd3s

that specific vin say authorization required for the MSP16 recall, which means they need to call the rep, but they should say yes and do it for free.

i forget which one MSP16 was! i think we checked the engine and cat and then changed the plugs and reflashed the ECU?

yeah you can bring any car into California, it just needs a smog check, and anything passes if its in good shape

Syndacate

Oh screw that, as soon as it goes in for SMOG checks it fails. I'm sure it then becomes subject to all the CARB bullshit and all non-CARB parts suddenly become illegal on it?

As for MSP16, it was simply regarding the engine being low on power, some sources say. Not quite sure what the ratioanle was, hopefully it wasn't something which would lead to premature engine failure...but even still, that's only 20k on that motor :-\.

j9fd3s

from the MSP16 recall notice
"DESCRIPTION
Some 2004-2008 RX-8 vehicles may experience a lack of engine power and/or low/rough engine idle speed in
high ambient temperatures. A revised PCM calibration is
available which increase
s metering oil lubrication
amount during engine start and changes ignition timing
control during high ambient air temperature conditions."

imo, you want to do that one!

re smog, the Rx8's will all pass smog. unless the cat is bad, the cat is the only emissions part on the car, so the cat is important.

the smog stations are all run independently so if your car has a bunch of mods on it, they probably will just ignore it, or refuse to smog it at all.

there is a grey area with the cat, because the 49 state ones are for non California licensed cars, which could be you!

there is supposed to be a CARB number on the cat, but i've never seen anyone try to read it, they just make sure the cat is there and shiny stuff is bad...

Syndacate

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but IMO it's easier to just not deal with SMOG at all. They already collect enough of my money with their ridiculously high state tax. I'd rather not be bothered with the crap I've seen many tuners deal with on ANY level. Even if I don't plan on modding this car, I don't feel like dealing it, anyway.

Anyway..
Yeah, I'd get any recalls, I was just wondering if the engine was damaged because of it. Most likely not, as its only been like 20k, and OH doesn't have a lot of heat. Issues with the oil metering system (ie. when they find they have to change something) is a huge part of these motors. So I believe it's smarter to think carefully when you consider engines that have been exposed to 'older' flashes which are using less oil at certain parts of the map.

j9fd3s

with 20K on the engine, its probably fine.

Syndacate

Yeah, more than likely. If it was 50k with that type of stuff I start to worry. Rotaries aren't exactly enduring to a bad tune or lack of lube.

tigersilhouette

I would suggest going for a 2006+ model. They revised the PCV system so that oil doesn't get in the intake anymore, 2007 saw the SSV spring strength increased, the car would have come from the factory with increased oil metering rates (emissions recall 4206F) and you would have improved interior components such as more reliable amplifiers for the Bose audio (if equipped). Buying the later model years ensures that the small annoyances are worked out. Good luck with your purchase!

-Lawrence

Syndacate

Yeah, I hear you. Used to the PCV issue because I have an SRT4 (huge holes in the baffles loads the intake with liquid oil), haha.

Good to note the SSV issue, thanks. If it starts getting jammed I'll replace with a newer actuator. Def good to know, but with the newer years comes higher prices :-\. Who knows what I'll find, but info noted, so thanks.