Auto 8 tuning and the CZ unit
 

Hi Folks:

Well after a day of crossing my fingers and a little bit of optimism, Speed Racer and I have forged ahead and did some tuning with my automatic 8 and the CZ unit. I know there will be many questions asked but please read our findings and then ask away.


Comments from Speed Racer:
Before we started to tune my10ae's auto RX-8 we verified that the electrical connections needed for the CZ unit were identical between the 4-port and 6-port motors. The electrical schematics showed that the connectors were the same and the pin-outs for power, ground, ignition, MAF, throttle position, etc... were identical. Looking good so far.
Yesterday morning we did several baseline runs in 2nd gear and recorded them using CANscan. The results showed that the car runs extremely rich in the upper RPMs, just like the 6-port engine. The lower RPMs look great and they should because the engine is running in a closed feedback loop.


Then we installed the CZ unit per Canzoomer's instructions. Detailed info and photos can be found in his vendor section of the forum. We only saw one minor difference during the install. The harness that plugs into the ECU only has 4 connectors (versus 5 connectors for the 6-port engine). The first map that we loaded on the CZ unit had the Air and Ignition maps set to zero. We wanted to make sure that the car ran the same as stock and it did. Above 4600 RPMs the car ran extremely rich and in many points the A/F ratio fell outside of the range of the wideband O2 sensor (A/F < 11)! :eek:

Over the course of many runs we slowly brought the A/F ratio up towards 13.5. This seemed to make a noticeable difference and I'll let my10ae fill in on the driving impressions:


Comments from my10ae:
First off I would like to state that even with these few tweaks we have done, the auto is still not as quick as the 6sp. With that said, the amount of tuning Speed Racer and I accomplished is a leap for fellow auto 8 owners. We did tuning from 4600 RPM to redline (approx. 7350 RPM) and have adjusted for the 2 port openings at approx. 6100 RPM and then again at 6900-7000 RPM. At these particular RPM's, we saw the car was going lean and adjusted accordingly. At the end of the day, the 2 port openings are very smooth and power seems strong till redline. The major tuning was done from 4600 RPM's to redline while in 2nd gear and in "manual" mode. The car revs much more freely and power can be felt from 4600K+. The power can be felt (read that as seat of the pants) when shifting from 1st to 2nd revving it to about 6.5K. Power that was not there before is there now. With over 150 miles on the car since yesterday's tuning, everything seems to be in order with no changes in the maps <yet?>.


Right now our plan is to make sure that the A/F ratios are stable and optimized before we make any changes to the ignition maps. I will drive the car for a week and we'll recheck the readings next weekend.



So far it is all good and the results look very promising! :D



P.S. Before anyone asks for the CZ maps, I need to point out that my10ae's CZ unit is slightly modified and it has all of the latest tweaks (i.e. full RPM readout and positive numbers in the Air table lean out the A/F ratio).

Very interesting--so what HP number are you all looking at from this preliminary tuning?

So far we are just tuning the A/F ratio to a more reasonable level (aiming for 13.5). We haven't dynoed the car so I can't give you hard numbers on the performance gains. In my opinion (take it for what it is worth) I believe that we gained at least 15Hp on this first attempt at tuning the 4-port engine. Nothing dramatic but you can still feel a difference.

I agree that it would be nice to see some dyno graphs but I'd like to hold off for a little while. At least give us a chance to optimize the air and ignition maps. Then, if my10ae is interested, we can do an A-B comparison between the stock and tuned maps.

We'll post up a graph of the A/F ratios that show the difference between stock and this first round of tuning.

Wow guys, as an AT owner I have to say thanks to you guys for such hard work and excellent research. However, as an idiot, I also don't know what any of this means :) I look forward to more conclusive tests and hopefully some Tuning the RX-8 for Dummies posts :o

13 - 15hp for theautomatic would put us backwhere Mazda originally claimed we were. When the automatic RX8 first cameout it was supposed to have 210 horsepower. So this tuning sounds great already. Maybenow we could reach 60 in the mid to upper 7s

Wow, that's cool! Good thing something good for power is coming out for you A/T drivers. Speed Racer knows his CZ goodies, he helped me out too.

Whoa - what a coincidence. Thanks for that! dmp also gave me a basic explanation - at least now I get the gist of it. Now I need the cz unit :)

You knowthe funny part about this my10ae isthat you posted about this almost exactly a year ago from today and Maurice saidtheyd have to make a completely separate unit for the automatic.


So I guessits time for me to order one or is there something else I need in additionto the unit?

I would hold off to see how my complete tuning unfolds. Speed Racer and I adjusted the A/F ratio, which helped, but we still have to tune the ignition maps. I am hoping better throtle response in the lower RPM's once the tuning is complete.

Here is what I bought when planning this project:
1. Dell refurb laptop on Ebay to do the tuning
2. Used CZ Unit 1.1 with cable
3. CANScan unit (serial) from Harrison R&D

My hopes are high as testing and tuning so far are going well :)

As promised here is a chart of the air/fuel ratios. As you can see the stock map looks great up to 6k RPMs then it completely tanks and drops below the range of the wideband sensor. Our first runs focused on trying to lean out the mixture above 6k RPMs. If you look at Run 12 you can see that we were able to make a significant change.

Tuning this car is a bit of a challenge because it feels like you are always aiming at a moving target. Making a change to one area can effect everything else around it. This is clearly shown in the midrange on Run 12. See how it is much richer than stock.

On the subsequent run I tried to clean up the midrange and it looks a lot better but I still need to smooth out the dips. The big dip around 6k RPMs will be a little harder to tame because it is very sensitive to any changes and tends to exaggerate any adjustments. There is also more work to do near redline.

Anyways, the main goal of this exercise was just to prove that the CZ unit could be used to tune a 4-port Renesis. So if you are interested in tuning your auto RX-8 I'd suggest picking up a CZ unit and giving it a try. :D

Did youguys say redline 7350 RPM? Whathappened to 7500?

Since the A/F ratio is off the chart, we compromised and went to 7350 as redline.

All this technical info within one week. My brain hurts. how would this affect the mpg?
i assuming it would get better because the higher rpms are being leaned out.

Sound like I'll pick up a CZ and installing before the turbo kit. Good luck guys with your tuning.

I have not seen a change in MPG. I have refilled the car once so far and still averaging the same distance. Yes I know the "same distance" is not a factual measurement. I have not taken the time to actually figure out my exact gas mileage. I do know that when the tank is full I can run 240+ miles before refilling.

On that note, I will be doing a few more runs and sending them off to Speed Racer. He wants to check and see if anything has changed in regards to the maps. Car feels the same, strong pull from 4600+ with no lag. Reviewing the maps will verify and if there are any spikes or drops, we will work on smoothing things out.

More info to come...:D

Good work--we'll be waiting on the updates

It looks like we have had a small set back with the tuning. my10ae sent me a couple of data logs and it appears that ECU has undone our changes with a long term fuel trim. If you look at the chart you will see that it is running extremely rich again. :(

my10ae and I live about an hour apart so it is a little challenging to get together frequently. Right now the plan is for us to meet up on Sunday and try again. So look for another update on Monday.

Back to the drawing board. :( At least I still have the zero map to start out with and then do some subtle changes to the A/F ratio. Hopefully we can get this adjusted so the ECU doesn't reset itself back to stock.

More tunage this Sunday. :D Anyone want to head up our way to see how its done? Drop me a pm.

i wondering if this happens to the 6 speeds ??? iam thinking you went to aggressive all at once and it sense it.

Yes, I have seen the same issues on my 6-spd and that is why I wanted to wait a few days to see if the changes actually took.

Anyone out there with an auto have a CANscan unit that can check something for me? If you have one, please check what your throttle position at idle and then again with your foor to the floor. I used my CANscan unit and finding at idle I'm at 16% throttle and at full throttle I'm at 78%


Anyone else experencing this?

We get 78% as full throttle also in the 6spd

any new developments?

Considering a foot and a 1/2 of snow fell over Sat night into Sunday, we cancelled the tuning day yesterday. We are shooting to do some more tuning on Feb 6 (BEFORE the Super Bowl). We will let everyone know what we did/checked on that day.


Sorry for the delay...

The throttle value has to be converted to a 100 scale.

use x-12*1.5...will give you real value.....

I am real glad this is under way
i tried to get this started on a AT car months ago

thanks man

No problem Mikeb. I've waited almost a year for Maurice to work on this. So I finally bit the bullet, bought a used CZ unit, laptop, and a CANscan unit. Working with Speed Racer to do some tunage on my auto. We had some setbacks, but look forward to getting back to tuning on Feb 6th :D

UPDATE...

Speed Racer and I did some more tuning today. We did 18 runs and found that we tripped the fuel trim 3 times. Before we continued tuning, we performed Drive Modes 1 and 3 within TSB "Engine Crank No Start". This was to be sure that the ECU was back to "normal" specs.

Speed racer adjusted the A/F ratio from 5800 RPM (Speed Racer, if I'm not relaying the numbers correctly please let me know) to redline. After a week of driving the car, the fuel trim tripped and all the work we did was overwritten but the OEM maps. We went a little more conservative with the adjustments this time. There are still a few "bumps" in the RPM range we can adjust, but we want to make sure the maps are still being utilized a week from now. If the maps still look good next Sunday, we will try to adjust for those bumps.

We also adjusted the ignition timing. Biggest timing advance was 8 degree's. Speed Racer adjusted from 3500 RPM's to approx 5800 RPM's. The advance in timing was really felt between 3800 and 5500 RPM's. The car now has some really nice pull within those RPM ranges. I was actually breaking loose from a dead stop into 2nd cruising around today (granted I have snow tires on, but I could not do this before we made the change) Pull feels very strong in the lower to mid-range and the A/F is helping in the higher RPM's to redline.

I am hopeing these adjustments keep as the car has a completely different feel to it in regards to pull. I might even go out on a limb an say we added maybe 15-20HP with today's tuning. Again, nothing is factual as far as HP goes, but the pull in the low to mid-range can significantly be felt.

More updates next weekend on whether or not the maps stay or get overwritten. I am keeping my fingers crossed. :)


Speed Racer will be posting up a graph of today's results soon.

my10ae and I spent the day tuning his auto. This time around we did things a little differently. We started out by disconnecting the battery to clear the ECU and the long term fuel trim. The we did the PCM Adaptive Memory Produce Drive Mode 1 and 3.

Mode 1

1. Start the engine and warm it up completely.
2. Verify that all accessory loads are off. (A/C, headlights, blower fan, defroster, radio)
3. Verify initial ignition timing and idle speed are within spec.
4. Run engine at 2500-3500 RPM with no load for 15+ seconds.
5. Run engine at 4500-5000 RPM with no load for 15+ seconds.
6. Idle the engine for 60+ seconds after the cooling fan has stopped.
7. Turn off ignition switch.

Mode 3

1. Perform Mode 1 first.
2. Verify that all accessory loads are off. (A/C, headlights, blower fan, defroster, radio)
3. Drive vehicle at any speed for 5+ minutes.
4. Drive at 55+ MPH for 1 minute.
5. Drive 45-55 MPH for 3 minutes.

Once that was done we did another baseline run and looked for the areas which were running extremely rich (A/F of 11.1 at 4800+ RPMs). Our first maps of the day started with a 3% adjustment at 4800+ RPMs for 90-100% throttle. The following run went to 6% and the A/F ratios looked great through 6300 RPMs. The third run we increased 6300+ to 9% but noticed that the A/F was still out of range at 11.1. On the fourth run we increased 6300+ to 12% and that tripped a long term fuel trim. Which in turn caused the A/F to drop to 11.1 from 5600+ RPMs. On the fifth run we left things alone and noticed that the A/F dropped to 11.1 from 4800+ RPMs.

At that point we started over by clearing the ECU and did the mode 1 and 3 again. This time we started our changes at 5400 RPMs to try to stay clear of any closed loop interactions. After several runs the long term fuel trim reoccured and the A/F ratios started to drop back down to 11.1. We also noticed that 5800+ RPMs was running rich but not falling off the scale.

We started over again and this time the changes started at 5800 RPMs and we used our previous adjustment values for that range. We stopped tuning the A/F when we got it into the 12-13 range. We will leave it like this for a few days and see if it remains stable.

The final adjustments for today look like this:
5800-0, 6100-10, 6200-12, 6500-12, 6600-22, 6800-22, 7000-25, 7200-25, 7400-22

After that we focused our attention on the ignition map. Our plan was to gradually increase the timing so that we would reach 30 degrees of advance at peak engine torque. Then hold the 30 degree advance until redline. This made a noticeable difference in power once we hit 4000 RPMs. Let me put it this way, my10ae was having a little too much fun with spinning the rear wheels every chance he got. :D

Ignition map:
500-0, 1000-3, 1500-3, 2000-3, 2500-3, 3000-3, 3500-4, 4000-4, 4500-6, 5000-8, 5500-8, 6000-6, 6500-5, 7000-4, 7500-2, 8000-0

my10ae,

I guess you beat me to the post.

Do me a favor and keep track of how the car feels. If you find any problems areas we can focus on them next weekend.

Youre actually spinning thetire now my10ae? Hah! Onlyway I couldever peel out before in my automatic was via neutral slam.

This is good news--hopefully you guys have more success. I don't know how I could even begin to tune mine since each RX8 seems to respond differently.

1st day notes...

I had to zero out the timing advance from 500-3500 RPM's. Car is very sluggish and underpowered this am on the ride in to work. With the advice from Speed Racer, I zero'd out the map from 500-3500 RPM's and went for a few test rides. Car no longer feels sluggish from 850 to 3500 RPM.

I'm not sure if advancing the timing 3 degrees in this RPM range caused the issue, but now that they are back to zero, all is working great. I do feel a slight "hesitation" when in 4th gear at approx. 71mph and at 3400RPM's. When I try to accelerate, there is slight hesitation to approx. 3600RPM and then the car has power. Speed Racer and I will review this small issue on Sunday.

That's all for now. I will post up if anything else changes as for as the maps go that we tuned yesterday.

2nd day notes....

On the advise of SR, I zeroed out the 3000 to 3500 RPM range. This helped the sluggishness of running in 4th gear at 71mph. the mid-range punch is still there around 4000+. All timing advance we did this past Sunday from 500 to 3500 is all back to stock. We will try to dial back in some timing this Sunday when we do some more tweaking.

That's all for now. Maps still seem to be in full function mode! :)

I asked my10ae to zero out the maps as I'd rather play it safe until I have a chance to look at a few more data logs.

The ignition map on the CZ unit is setup to look at the MAF voltage and the RPM. As of right now we have the changes set only by the RPM. To do it right we will need to do a lot of data logging under different conditions (partial/full throttle, varying weather conditions, different gears, etc...). This will give us a better idea of how the stock ECU adjusts the timing in these conditions and then we can make the proper adjustments from there.

So the automatics computer keeps hampering your progress?

Good reply.

Now that we've got the "easy" part done. We need to spend some serious time collecting data under different conditions to fine tune the maps. This will allow us to get as much power as possible without causing the ECU to compensate or the engine to ping. All of that work is wearing me out just thinking about it. ;)

You guys are doing a great job, there are alot of other RX-8 drivers that aren't as technical as you are, but really appreciate the pioneering you are acheiving with the Auto RX-8. You may be doing all this for personal satisfaction and not fame or recognition but sometimes you have to take the good with the good. Kudos!

Thanks Spr grn8. Speed Racer and I are not doing it for the recoginition and fame, we are doing it to help out fellow auto 8 owners to get more HP out of our cars

Thanks for the good words :)

All Im saying is that as soon as you guys figure out how to get optimal maps that remain consistent and stable w/the ECU - Iwill be ordering the unit for mine. I just hope my old automatic 8 (manufactured back in June 03) doesnt require completely different tuning. As far asIm concerned youre my heroes. :p

More updates... (Speed, please post up if I miss something)


Speed Racer and I got together again this past Sunday and verified my maps are holding. Maps look good as we didn't trip the fuel trim. We did a few tweaks to the timing from 3000 to 3500 rpm. Since I had an issue with hesitation last Monday with the advance at 3 degrees, I changed it to 0 from 3000 to 3500 rpm for drivability reasons. Changed timing to 1 degree advance from 3000 to 3500 rpm and still had hesitation on the way home from Speed's house. Changed the maps back to 0.

I am going to do a bunch of logging this week under all kinds of conditions and speeds. The object is to adjust the timing in regards to the MAF voltage. I am still getting a hesitation at approx. 3100 rpm in 4th gear at 71mph at 1 degree of advance. (not taking in consideration of the voltage of the MAF). Hopefully the logs will show where we can change the timing where it is needed and to keep drivability in the higher gears and speed.

Still more tuning to come but things are going well. As I stated in another post, this tuning is a slow learning process. We are slowly making progress and will keep all posted. :D

That sounds like a fair description of the work we did on Sunday.

We have a solid base map. Now it is time to do a lot of data logging and a little tweaking to make it perfect.

So are you still able to spin the wheels in second gear? ;)

Thought I'd check in and see how your doing Kevin. Hope all is well. How's the weather?

Hey guys:


Sorry, I took the weekend off this past Sunday. Being Valentine's Day weekend, I spent time with the wife. I will be doing some adjustments with timing in the lower RPM range this week. Will bump up the timing from the 1900 to 3500 range. We'll see if I run in to any pinging/hesitation.

I will keep all posted.

sounds good thanks

Well at least you have your priorities in order Kevin. You might drive your temptress
during the day, but you get to lie down with your wife at night. Good on ya.!

my10ae, check your pm's. please that is.

Spr grn8:

How you making out with the maps I sent you?

I am going to do some more runs tonite to tweak my timing from 4K on. Anyone know if you can adjust the timing below 4K with success? I tried playing with timing below 4K and the car ran stronger, but idled very rough.

I will adjust the 4000-5000K rpm range tonite and see if I can get a little more power out of those ranges. :)

I haven't had much luck below 4K with the timing...it seems to hesitate even with 1-2 deg of advance. I have a couple of degrees at 4K and up to 6 in other areas. I'm also going to work on the 5-7K area this weekend. Hope to find a bit more there. Will be dynoing next weekend...hopefully will get a better idea how it reacts...I've got a few maps with varying degrees of advance I want to test.


Anyone have any advice for where to add advance the most effectively.........and how much total advance could be possible??