ZEX Wet Nitrous Install!!
05-12-2005, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
Please explain how there would be a safety valve failure as they are currently designed and used by the industry. Please also explain how nitrous oxide could explode.
CRH
CRH
05-12-2005, 07:45 PM
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that *one* didn't involve tanks exploding but its been documented and theres been plenty of pictures to back it up as well. of course this was because the user was an idiot and is posting it on the net and making themselves just look dumber and trying to sue the company on top of that
05-13-2005, 12:58 AM
#79
I would be interested in seeing these documented tanks that supposedly exploded. Might they have been in a dentist's office? The interesting thing is that of all the uses that nitrous oxide has seen, especially in the Pro Mod class in NHRA, there have been manifold backfires but I don't think we have yet seen an actual tank explode. With the mandated blow-down tubes directing the excess pressure away from any flammable material it is unlikely that anything other than a quick relief of pressure would occur. Nitrous, by itself, is not flammable. That's why there is a green diamond on the tank and not a red one. Additionally, my own car suffered a manifold backfire and my resonance box was damaged but nothing else. If I am to understand the discussion here, it is really a matter of whether or not Dan, myself, and others are confident and feeling safe in using our nitrous systems. I know the precise reason for my backfire so I still feel comfortable using it. Turbos are cool but it seems that when people see I have nitrous on my RX-8 they begin to ask questions and I end up spending quite a bit of time de-mystifying the concept and its use.
CRH
CRH
05-13-2005, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
I would be interested in seeing these documented tanks that supposedly exploded. Might they have been in a dentist's office? The interesting thing is that of all the uses that nitrous oxide has seen, especially in the Pro Mod class in NHRA, there have been manifold backfires but I don't think we have yet seen an actual tank explode. With the mandated blow-down tubes directing the excess pressure away from any flammable material it is unlikely that anything other than a quick relief of pressure would occur. Nitrous, by itself, is not flammable. That's why there is a green diamond on the tank and not a red one. Additionally, my own car suffered a manifold backfire and my resonance box was damaged but nothing else. If I am to understand the discussion here, it is really a matter of whether or not Dan, myself, and others are confident and feeling safe in using our nitrous systems. I know the precise reason for my backfire so I still feel comfortable using it. Turbos are cool but it seems that when people see I have nitrous on my RX-8 they begin to ask questions and I end up spending quite a bit of time de-mystifying the concept and its use.
CRH
CRH
05-13-2005, 01:40 AM
#84
Thanks, Red. In many ways the editorial supports much of what I have calculated about the use of nitrous. First, that a full tank's temp would have to exceed 270 degrees F in order to explode. My guess by looking at those photos is that the user bypassed the safety valve and just plugged it. The membrane that constitutes the valve is very tamper-proof. Second, that nitrous oxide is rather safe when used as directed. One huge mistake that Maxima owner made was in not wiring the heater to a circuit controlled by the ignition switch. Another mistake was in heating up a tank that probably did not need it. People misuse heaters all the time.
I appreciate the fact that you, and StealthFox, have kept us on top of the potential dangers of nitrous oxide use. I wouldn't want people to become too casual in using it and forget that with power, even horsepower, comes a level of responsibility. Perhaps my dialogue on the issue was becoming a bit irresponsible and I would hate for someone to get hurt due to any misunderstanding.
Don't those photos look like something off of Rotten.com?
Thanks, again, for your input and contributions. What else do we discuss, now?
CRH
I appreciate the fact that you, and StealthFox, have kept us on top of the potential dangers of nitrous oxide use. I wouldn't want people to become too casual in using it and forget that with power, even horsepower, comes a level of responsibility. Perhaps my dialogue on the issue was becoming a bit irresponsible and I would hate for someone to get hurt due to any misunderstanding.
Don't those photos look like something off of Rotten.com?
Thanks, again, for your input and contributions. What else do we discuss, now?
CRH
05-13-2005, 01:46 AM
#85
Stealth, that idea has been pondered and the hardware has been purchased by another member called Horse. The thing is that with the factory PCM there is a threshhold of about a 55-60 h.p. boost from nitrous or a turbo before ignition curve adjustments are necessary. The factory PCM also allows for a cat-removal midpipe and aftermarket intake, too, along with that 55-60 h.p. Once we get into modifying the timing the only hurdle is the seal's ability to hold the housing pressure. The practical use of nitrous with a turbo is usually to spool up an otherwise oversized turbo. I can't see why anybody with a properly sized turbo for street use would need nitrous. The gain made by using nitrous could also be made by adding a few more psi.
Other than show use, am I overlooking something?
CRH
Other than show use, am I overlooking something?
CRH
05-13-2005, 02:11 AM
#86
2010 Prius - Miss the 8
Just saw the setup in person, definitely sounded nice... not sure about the ride, maybe the ones that got a chance tonight at the Tustin meet can chime in on how the car rides now. 
Crazy setup too... wires going all over the place. It's impressive to say the least.
Crazy setup too... wires going all over the place. It's impressive to say the least.
05-13-2005, 10:45 AM
#88
2010 Prius - Miss the 8
Well ya know what I meant... Hoses, wires, gadgets, doohickeys... :P I'm too scared to even deal with the wiring/engine work in this car yet. It's not like it's a Civic where you can take everything apart and put it back together like a Lego set. But nice job, it looked fine, I think the EVO guys were yelling at you to stop showing off.
05-13-2005, 12:21 PM
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Yup, they definatley were intrigued by the idea of a "worthy" 8. They seem like they like the styling of our cars, but don't consider an 8 worthy enough to race. I would probably feel the same way...but now an 8 with Nos, that may be interesting.....
05-13-2005, 12:41 PM
#90
In my area the import crowd, as small as it may be, are starting to sit up and take notice of the fact that the RX-8 has some decent mods available and that with the right ones, these cars are well quick enough to take out most street-driven/daily-driven cars with street tires. The scene as portayed in magazines is far different from the world where the cars are the primary transportation for their owners. In that sense, the RX-8 will prove itself as a much more flexible and practical car than most would think. Look at it this way; the only thing stopping any particular car from being the baddest on the block is that car's mechanical ability to produce certain power levels and the ability to get that power to the ground. As it stands, the RX-8 is already much more capable, mechanically speaking, than 99% of the people out there previously thought. The next 18 months will be quite telling.
BTW, the Renesis engine and RX-8 drivetrain are nowhere near as complicated as one might think. I recently had my whole upper half of the engine removed, inspected, and replaced in 90 minutes with no step-by-step manual available to me and that was the first time I had done it. A few bolts, a couple clamps, some hoses and connectors and it was all done. If you systematize your approach it simplifies the reassembly.
Take my word for it: If you get rid of your cat, add some nitrous and don't be afraid to rev it to 9,500 rpm's not only will you win some races you'll scare the Hell out of those with piston engines. There are those who think because I shoot flames when I shift that I run 11's. If they wanna be stupid I'm not gonna change their minds. :p There is definitely a way to develop a solid reputation for yourself on the street while taking the fewest chances possible and with the right tools you'll also be able to back that reputation up with reality.
CRH
BTW, the Renesis engine and RX-8 drivetrain are nowhere near as complicated as one might think. I recently had my whole upper half of the engine removed, inspected, and replaced in 90 minutes with no step-by-step manual available to me and that was the first time I had done it. A few bolts, a couple clamps, some hoses and connectors and it was all done. If you systematize your approach it simplifies the reassembly.
Take my word for it: If you get rid of your cat, add some nitrous and don't be afraid to rev it to 9,500 rpm's not only will you win some races you'll scare the Hell out of those with piston engines. There are those who think because I shoot flames when I shift that I run 11's. If they wanna be stupid I'm not gonna change their minds. :p There is definitely a way to develop a solid reputation for yourself on the street while taking the fewest chances possible and with the right tools you'll also be able to back that reputation up with reality.
CRH
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 05-13-2005 at 12:46 PM.
05-13-2005, 05:28 PM
#91
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Ha! I didnt know they were talking crap. Ah well, they were just jelouse. I wish I had the chance to race one of em and see what happens. I had a good time though. Good to see so many car enthusiasts.
PS: I told you all I love that purge button!
D:D
PS: I told you all I love that purge button!
D:D
05-14-2005, 02:58 AM
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ok guys, the tanks will not explode as a direct result of nitrous failure, now if you have a fire in your car it will explode... just like if you had a freaking can of hairspray it would explode! alright, people, as long as nitrous is used right.... hell even if its not, THE BOTTLES WILL NOT EXPLODE!!!! And please... for the love of god.. buddah... jesus.... who ever just please dont call it nos... nos is a company... its short for nitrous oxide systems... just call it nitrous, if you are too damn lazy to type that call it n2o. anyways, nitrous is good... nitrous is safe WHEN USED PROPERLY and when used in conjunction with balloons, it can also be interesting (not that i know from personal experience or nothin)
That is all!
That is all!
05-14-2005, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
In my area the import crowd, as small as it may be, are starting to sit up and take notice of the fact that the RX-8 has some decent mods available and that with the right ones, these cars are well quick enough to take out most street-driven/daily-driven cars with street tires. The scene as portayed in magazines is far different from the world where the cars are the primary transportation for their owners. In that sense, the RX-8 will prove itself as a much more flexible and practical car than most would think. Look at it this way; the only thing stopping any particular car from being the baddest on the block is that car's mechanical ability to produce certain power levels and the ability to get that power to the ground. As it stands, the RX-8 is already much more capable, mechanically speaking, than 99% of the people out there previously thought. The next 18 months will be quite telling.
BTW, the Renesis engine and RX-8 drivetrain are nowhere near as complicated as one might think. I recently had my whole upper half of the engine removed, inspected, and replaced in 90 minutes with no step-by-step manual available to me and that was the first time I had done it. A few bolts, a couple clamps, some hoses and connectors and it was all done. If you systematize your approach it simplifies the reassembly.
Take my word for it: If you get rid of your cat, add some nitrous and don't be afraid to rev it to 9,500 rpm's not only will you win some races you'll scare the Hell out of those with piston engines. There are those who think because I shoot flames when I shift that I run 11's. If they wanna be stupid I'm not gonna change their minds. :p There is definitely a way to develop a solid reputation for yourself on the street while taking the fewest chances possible and with the right tools you'll also be able to back that reputation up with reality.
CRH
BTW, the Renesis engine and RX-8 drivetrain are nowhere near as complicated as one might think. I recently had my whole upper half of the engine removed, inspected, and replaced in 90 minutes with no step-by-step manual available to me and that was the first time I had done it. A few bolts, a couple clamps, some hoses and connectors and it was all done. If you systematize your approach it simplifies the reassembly.
Take my word for it: If you get rid of your cat, add some nitrous and don't be afraid to rev it to 9,500 rpm's not only will you win some races you'll scare the Hell out of those with piston engines. There are those who think because I shoot flames when I shift that I run 11's. If they wanna be stupid I'm not gonna change their minds. :p There is definitely a way to develop a solid reputation for yourself on the street while taking the fewest chances possible and with the right tools you'll also be able to back that reputation up with reality.
CRH
also dont count on me disasembling my RENESIS and invalidating my warranty anytime soon and revving to 9500rpm.
and also, bumping up PSI is not an easy task with the RENESIS. they can take a maximum of about 11psi, most kits are nearing that and you will have to replace quite a few components to bump it up "a few" id rather keep mine at very meager 8psi(half bar) and have it a reliable turbo system that puts out 105hp i can daily drive, and have another 55 on tap(plus nawz is soo madd tyte yo)
also i support your idea in changing the 8's reputation, i plan on doing a port and polish job, full bolt ons, turbo, lightweight drivetrain pieces, ECU tuning, and if it can work, nitrous to really go out and set some things straight about the RX-8 and renesis
05-14-2005, 11:38 AM
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in addition, use of nitrous oxide shots over 75psi will be viable in the future once proper ignition timing is done and housing pressure seals are taken care of, correct?
either way i would be intrested in having that stuff done to put a 55 or 75 at most shot on my turbo car for show and for the security of "backup boost"
either way i would be intrested in having that stuff done to put a 55 or 75 at most shot on my turbo car for show and for the security of "backup boost"
05-14-2005, 04:49 PM
#97
With all of the warranty-voiding experimentation I have done, here's what I have discovered;
The Renesis is able to handle far more abuse than previous versions of the rotary. It also seems to handle more abuse than I can and the rev-limiter is conservatively set at 9,750 rpm's.
As to nitrous oxide-the N flash seems to prefer the factory intake and a max of the 55 shot. When I had the M flash I was able to use a Rotary Extreme intake with a Blitz SUS filter and it worked pretty darn good. The N is a little more sensitive so it won't let me use the R.E. with nitrous. Besides, there isn't much(if anything) gained witrh aftermarket intakes. The Racing Beat may be an exception, even with nitrous, but it will be a while before I get one. Jeff Abrams has said that the N flash richens up the A/F and slightly advances the timing(if I understood him correctly) and that may narrow the "window" that allows nitrous or turbo use without major PCM work.
It should be noted that whether using nitrous oxide or the GReddy turbo kit, both mods are limited to 55-60 h.p. boosts without doing major tuning to the A/F ratios and ignition curve. The GReddy kit doesn't modify the ignition curve according to Abrams. It only richens up the mixture a bit by manipulating the engine temp. signal sent to the PCM.
As far as what the Renesis will mechanically handle for boost levels, I have much confidence that levels in the area of 100-125 h.p. can be achieved with PCM tuning. Whether turbo, nitrous, or a combination of the two, that's a level I am comfortable predicting.
The flames I get are normal for a rotary to spew when there is no cat to snuff them out. I removed my cat 35,000 miles ago and have never had a problem. I have also driven to Atlanta, raced for two days in rpm ranges between 7K and 9.5K all day, and driven the car back. It ran well the whole time.
This Summer I will be installing an E-Manage and all the necessary hardware with the hopes of preparing the car for a 100-125 shot of nitrous.
CRH
The Renesis is able to handle far more abuse than previous versions of the rotary. It also seems to handle more abuse than I can and the rev-limiter is conservatively set at 9,750 rpm's.
As to nitrous oxide-the N flash seems to prefer the factory intake and a max of the 55 shot. When I had the M flash I was able to use a Rotary Extreme intake with a Blitz SUS filter and it worked pretty darn good. The N is a little more sensitive so it won't let me use the R.E. with nitrous. Besides, there isn't much(if anything) gained witrh aftermarket intakes. The Racing Beat may be an exception, even with nitrous, but it will be a while before I get one. Jeff Abrams has said that the N flash richens up the A/F and slightly advances the timing(if I understood him correctly) and that may narrow the "window" that allows nitrous or turbo use without major PCM work.
It should be noted that whether using nitrous oxide or the GReddy turbo kit, both mods are limited to 55-60 h.p. boosts without doing major tuning to the A/F ratios and ignition curve. The GReddy kit doesn't modify the ignition curve according to Abrams. It only richens up the mixture a bit by manipulating the engine temp. signal sent to the PCM.
As far as what the Renesis will mechanically handle for boost levels, I have much confidence that levels in the area of 100-125 h.p. can be achieved with PCM tuning. Whether turbo, nitrous, or a combination of the two, that's a level I am comfortable predicting.
The flames I get are normal for a rotary to spew when there is no cat to snuff them out. I removed my cat 35,000 miles ago and have never had a problem. I have also driven to Atlanta, raced for two days in rpm ranges between 7K and 9.5K all day, and driven the car back. It ran well the whole time.
This Summer I will be installing an E-Manage and all the necessary hardware with the hopes of preparing the car for a 100-125 shot of nitrous.
CRH
05-15-2005, 09:30 AM
#99
Thanks, Stealth. Sometimes I wish I had done it the way many others have and just installed a turbo kit(although those guys and I are sharing problems re: the N flash). My friend with the Evo8 reminds me that I am just getting quite used to the current power of the car and am getting bored with it. One of the benefits of using the G-Tech, regardless of what one might think of it's accuracy, is that it removes the subjectivity of the whole process. Just 'cause I am no longer surprised by the power of the car doesn't mean it is slower(necessarily). I previously thought that the N flash cut a couple tenths off the e.t. but I am now thinking I was wrong about that and may have actually lost a bit of power in exchange for a smoother power curve. I think for purposes of tuning that it is better to have a flatter power curve from the factory and then improve on that, rather than sit on a dyno all day trying to fill in holes and gaps.
CRH
CRH
