Who would buy a renesis 3 rotor kit?
03-01-2006, 05:54 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Renesis_8
What about a 4 port per rotor renesis, 2 rotor renesis is 3 ports per rotor
rotarygod: what exactly do you mean by siamese -ing the ports? putting 2 holes for one rotor and one slot for the other on the intermediate plate?
03-01-2006, 07:09 AM
#53
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rx8wannahave: we are located in the DC area. as for work our shop has done: alot of rollercoster and theme park stuff. the best example of what we've made that you may be able to relate to is a motion base. have you ever gone into one of those 3D movies where you and 20 or so people are strapped in like a roller coaster, and the entire things moves around with the movie? 36 of them were designed and made by my boss in the 90's (before my employment here). they sold for a quarter million each, so im not talking about the cheap ones. these things are HUGE, and could push you at over 6 g's of force in the x y or z plane. i can get some pictures if you want.
In DC huh, I'm going up to Virginia to visit my wife's sister and I always take a drive up to DC. If you guys are still working on this mind if I stop by and take a look at what you are up to? I don't know if your working on this hush hush or something, so it's cool if I couldn't see the work in progress.
I'm going up in May-June...maybe you will be done by then or maybe not?
Again, I don't know if your work is hush hush but picture of the progress in parts would be GREAT! But...I understand if you can't.
Thank you for working on this...because of the cost I might never be able to get this but like RG stated you might have more than one product here (4-rotor, custom rotary, do-it-yourself kit, etc etc) and I think this makes alot of business sense for your company.
Also, like stated the people building planes really like the rotary engine so that might be another future application/product.
Thanks and please keep us updated as much as you can, it's fun hearing about the work your company is doing.
Come on RG and driveslikejehu...let's have a 3-rotor group hug
(LOL)Note: By the way, you said you are building this thing and only need an 8 to stick the engine in. Does that mean that if this fails...you could simply stick the original Renesis back in there...no harm done? Or, do you have to take apart the original engine to build the custom 3-rotor.
03-01-2006, 08:09 PM
#54
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I can't help but wonder if taking parts from an existing renesis is really the way to go.
ie, (Cost of 100% new engine, minus the sale value of still-intact renesis) versus (Lesser cost of a cobbled-together engine, and a bunch of leftover parts that won't be worth much)
edit: one question. If the plate is aluminum, are you going to have to plate it with iron somehow? Aluminum piston engines have iron sleeves (or that nikasil stuff), is that something you'll have to do on a rotary as well?
ie, (Cost of 100% new engine, minus the sale value of still-intact renesis) versus (Lesser cost of a cobbled-together engine, and a bunch of leftover parts that won't be worth much)
edit: one question. If the plate is aluminum, are you going to have to plate it with iron somehow? Aluminum piston engines have iron sleeves (or that nikasil stuff), is that something you'll have to do on a rotary as well?
Last edited by BaronVonBigmeat; 03-01-2006 at 08:13 PM.
03-02-2006, 06:25 AM
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doing a 20b conversion is really expensive even if you do it your self, you dont know how much it is involve until you do it! and if you want to make it NA it is even more expensive since you got to make headers and put NA rotors in it, I can list the parts but it is in the 10,000 to 12,000 just in parts.
and that is without going over board buyng stuf.
and that is without going over board buyng stuf.
03-02-2006, 04:47 PM
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I would really REALLY like to see a blog made of this project, I normally hate blogs but I'd read that one.
how about moly plating the rotors? GM has moly plated it's ecotec engine if I remember correctly and that would really help if you want to make the seals tighter and reduce losses thru there.
I still wouldn't pay 15k for it, but I sure as hell am interested in the project.
rotaries for airplane engines is probably where you should focus your market, more than auto engines, they are far superior to the piston engines they'd replace. You just need to market it.
how about moly plating the rotors? GM has moly plated it's ecotec engine if I remember correctly and that would really help if you want to make the seals tighter and reduce losses thru there.
I still wouldn't pay 15k for it, but I sure as hell am interested in the project.
rotaries for airplane engines is probably where you should focus your market, more than auto engines, they are far superior to the piston engines they'd replace. You just need to market it.
03-02-2006, 10:10 PM
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we came up with an idea in the shop today to keep cost down.
since many of you are concerned with the initial price, and the gas milage (although not that bad) that would follow this conversion, a cool idea emerged...
WHAT IF the third rotor was only active under heavy throttle? and only 2 rotors were active under normal driving conditions. this would be much much easier to design AND control, because the stock engine could be left almost completely alone, except for the exhaust manifold. imagine a 20B with a 2 rotor intake manifold on the rear 2 rotors, and a second intake manifold on the front rotor, with a completely separate throttle body and control.
gas milage would be the same as it is now, since 90% of the time, you wont be using that 3rd rotor. but when you want the power, its there. the rotor will already be spinning at the same speed as the engine, so barely (maybe one rotor revolution at the most) any lag.
this would only require you to ADD a manifold, rather than replace the entire thing. you would also be able to keep all of the little mazda tricks that they added into the intake system, without us screwing around with it. this would keep the cost down considerably.
ECU would also be much much simpler, because we could basically just add onto the existing ECU (i just found out today we have that capability) for the third rotor.
to keep the thrid rotor from putting an extra load on the engine, the thrid rotor housing would have to be modified slightly. but this is an addition to the engine anyway. when the third rotor is INACTIVE, we would keep the intake completely open, and add a valve on the spark plug side of the housing (much adding trailing spark plugs to a race engine) and leave the valve open, so the rotor doesnt compress any air, just spins around like its supposed to. when the rotor is called however, this valve will close and normal firing order abnd compression will begin. like before, one rotor revolution may be lost in the transistion, but thats nothing in the scheme of things.
the only issue with the design of this is controlling the oil spray into the chamber for the apex seals, since the rotor wont be combusting, the oil wont be burned... but im sure we can come up with something. or maybe someone else can.
just imagine cruising down the highwayin 5th gear... then you drop it into 4th (or 3rd if your really tryin to GO!) and stomp the gas... that thing would GIDDY UP!
just a thought.... lets hear some opinions.
since many of you are concerned with the initial price, and the gas milage (although not that bad) that would follow this conversion, a cool idea emerged...
WHAT IF the third rotor was only active under heavy throttle? and only 2 rotors were active under normal driving conditions. this would be much much easier to design AND control, because the stock engine could be left almost completely alone, except for the exhaust manifold. imagine a 20B with a 2 rotor intake manifold on the rear 2 rotors, and a second intake manifold on the front rotor, with a completely separate throttle body and control.
gas milage would be the same as it is now, since 90% of the time, you wont be using that 3rd rotor. but when you want the power, its there. the rotor will already be spinning at the same speed as the engine, so barely (maybe one rotor revolution at the most) any lag.
this would only require you to ADD a manifold, rather than replace the entire thing. you would also be able to keep all of the little mazda tricks that they added into the intake system, without us screwing around with it. this would keep the cost down considerably.
ECU would also be much much simpler, because we could basically just add onto the existing ECU (i just found out today we have that capability) for the third rotor.
to keep the thrid rotor from putting an extra load on the engine, the thrid rotor housing would have to be modified slightly. but this is an addition to the engine anyway. when the third rotor is INACTIVE, we would keep the intake completely open, and add a valve on the spark plug side of the housing (much adding trailing spark plugs to a race engine) and leave the valve open, so the rotor doesnt compress any air, just spins around like its supposed to. when the rotor is called however, this valve will close and normal firing order abnd compression will begin. like before, one rotor revolution may be lost in the transistion, but thats nothing in the scheme of things.
the only issue with the design of this is controlling the oil spray into the chamber for the apex seals, since the rotor wont be combusting, the oil wont be burned... but im sure we can come up with something. or maybe someone else can.
just imagine cruising down the highwayin 5th gear... then you drop it into 4th (or 3rd if your really tryin to GO!) and stomp the gas... that thing would GIDDY UP!
just a thought.... lets hear some opinions.
Last edited by drivelikejehu; 03-02-2006 at 10:22 PM.
03-03-2006, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by terrypk1
i think i will pay 15000 for everything including parts and labor. but the kit must come with warranty.
03-03-2006, 12:45 AM
#62
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Anyone interested in this kind of swap...please pm me.
I dont have resources for unlimited 20B blocks, so if the customer can provide a block, then the swap can be done no problem.
I'm talking with a couple forum members right now about getting their 8's into the shop soon.
I dont have resources for unlimited 20B blocks, so if the customer can provide a block, then the swap can be done no problem.
I'm talking with a couple forum members right now about getting their 8's into the shop soon.
03-03-2006, 12:46 AM
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Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 07:55 AM.
03-03-2006, 10:03 AM
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The rotor deactivation sounds cool but complicated. Didn't RX8PR say that he gets like, 18 mpg if he can keep his foot off the gas? Anyway, if you've paid $15k for an engine, I doubt that worse gas mileage would matter.
Besides, you've increased displacement by 50%...but does it necessarily follow that mpg is going to fall by a similar amount? You aren't adding significant weight, or any wind resistance, or rolling resistance. And if it's a problem, you could switch to the 4.10 gear and still have a car that's much faster than stock, while keeping RPM's lower than stock.
Besides, you've increased displacement by 50%...but does it necessarily follow that mpg is going to fall by a similar amount? You aren't adding significant weight, or any wind resistance, or rolling resistance. And if it's a problem, you could switch to the 4.10 gear and still have a car that's much faster than stock, while keeping RPM's lower than stock.
Last edited by BaronVonBigmeat; 03-03-2006 at 10:06 AM.
03-03-2006, 10:18 AM
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Well within a 3 rotor you are increasing friction by adding more displacement and a heavier eccentric shaft. Also it should be less thermally efficient, which is already not a strong point of the rotary engine. Those alone I think will adversely decrease gas mileage. I didn't see RX8PR's comment on mileage, I'd be curious to see what MPG he is getting.
edit: just read the displacement on demand idea...I'm by no means an engineer, but this sounds overly complex. I'd just like to see a properly functioning 3 rotor Renesis before I'd put more faith into the added complexity of DOD. To me, a rotary by virtue of so few parts is about keeping it simple.
edit: just read the displacement on demand idea...I'm by no means an engineer, but this sounds overly complex. I'd just like to see a properly functioning 3 rotor Renesis before I'd put more faith into the added complexity of DOD. To me, a rotary by virtue of so few parts is about keeping it simple.
Last edited by Red Devil; 03-03-2006 at 10:23 AM.
03-03-2006, 01:21 PM
#67
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it would be more complex for US, but not for the consumer (you). it would also keep cost down ALOT.
20B's do have a major problem with heat, but GTORX7 uses a pretty large radiator and does fine, even when hes on the track. the Displacement on Demand (i like that name by the way) would really cut down on the heat issue during normal driving. your car more often overheats in stop and go traffic because of no air flow right?
the other issue with doing a strait 3 rotor renesis, is im not sure on which stock intake features we would be able to keep, and which ones we will not, but we arent at that stage yet by any means.
wither way, the longblocks will be the same, so this could be sorted out later when its time to do the manifolds.
20B's do have a major problem with heat, but GTORX7 uses a pretty large radiator and does fine, even when hes on the track. the Displacement on Demand (i like that name by the way
) would really cut down on the heat issue during normal driving. your car more often overheats in stop and go traffic because of no air flow right?the other issue with doing a strait 3 rotor renesis, is im not sure on which stock intake features we would be able to keep, and which ones we will not, but we arent at that stage yet by any means.
wither way, the longblocks will be the same, so this could be sorted out later when its time to do the manifolds.
03-03-2006, 01:41 PM
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I can't take the credit for the "Displacement on Demand" namesake. I think it was first a GM term used for their Cadillac engines back in the 80s.
03-03-2006, 02:03 PM
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you want an intresting and powrful NA rotay with good gas milage?
take a 4 port engine and make it a side port an peripheral port engine, under normal driving conditions it works as a renesis, under hard driving it works as a peripheral race engine with a 10,000 rpm red line
take a 4 port engine and make it a side port an peripheral port engine, under normal driving conditions it works as a renesis, under hard driving it works as a peripheral race engine with a 10,000 rpm red line
03-03-2006, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by therm8
Would the thing still rev to 9k? Seems to me that a 33%+ increase in rotating mass would lower max rpm.
i would think it wouldnt affect it much at all, since all the rotors will still be spinning at the same rate. the shaft might see some extra flex though since its longer therefore easier to twist... but someone else can chime in on this one.
03-06-2006, 10:33 AM
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driveslikeajehu...is this just "idea's" or is actual work being done as we speak?
Just wondering how far along you are, my guess is this is mainly idea's right now (other than the stuff you already said you guys have made)
Just wondering how far along you are, my guess is this is mainly idea's right now (other than the stuff you already said you guys have made)
03-06-2006, 11:09 AM
#74
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Hi all, I was offline for long due to my pc's hard disk failure,then getting new vpc and then software glitches.
I will love a 3 rotor but agree thats too much, especially to get it to us in SA,but why not take a normal 20B, put in high compression rotors, do a good bridgeport or street port with say Microtech LTX 12 engine management and do same idea as that other 3 rotor turbo from earlier.
should be good horses I think, and cheaper and more basic.
I will love a 3 rotor but agree thats too much, especially to get it to us in SA,but why not take a normal 20B, put in high compression rotors, do a good bridgeport or street port with say Microtech LTX 12 engine management and do same idea as that other 3 rotor turbo from earlier.
should be good horses I think, and cheaper and more basic.
03-06-2006, 11:15 AM
#75
Rotary lover
but no turbo, with a very light flywheel, and good exhaust / intake system,
a screamer.
to be honest this is what I am thinking of doing, later when the renesis says no more and no 3 rotor renesis is available at a good price.
a screamer.
to be honest this is what I am thinking of doing, later when the renesis says no more and no 3 rotor renesis is available at a good price.