Tudor

I was thinking about using SC and also different intercooling solutions. As I said before I don't want to use FMIC. Two main reasons added weight aft front axle and also there's only enough space for properly sized radiator - no intercooler. UMIC usually suffer from unfavorable air flow – it’s easy to direct air to them but close to impossible to drain that air out of them properly.
Liquid/air IC could be better solution.
I added a couple of pictures of initial Opcon supercharger packaging. One little 3300AX is seating on top of engine. Don’t really like that is so high. On the other side mounting it on the left side of the engine may make overall CGH a bit lower but will add weight of front left corner – already heaviest because of driver. I’ll have to think to find a best compromise. I will run performance simulations to see how different CG locations (resultant of S/C placement) influence on track performance and lap time.
On top of S/C there’s CF airbox with integrated intercooler. It’s a patented Opcon’s Laminova dual core system http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15. I really like possibility to integrate IC with inlet manifold. It has separate cooling circuit with own small radiator and water pump. It could also be integrated with aircon circuit for even higher efficiency.
Air to S/C is fed from under windshield – there’s a high pressure zone. NASCAR guys us this zone for years.
I have some questions – Hey Fred where are you? Still waiting for an email from you.

Throttle body. First and probably best solution is to have 3 of those for each port pare. Individual throttle works great on piston engines – how does it work on Rotary? Also this is usually a NA solution and becomes somewhat irrelevant. It is also expensive.
I also have a wild question – is it possible to place throttle body BEFORE S/C???

Main question – what length should be intake pipes (designated with red arrow on one of the pics.) coming from airbox to engine? Or may be I should say length from throttle body to engine?

BTW this intercooler system seem to suit turbo version as well – I’ll have to model and see how it packages.

Thank You
Ted

rotarygod

Sorry I haven't gotten around to sending you an e-mail. I will.

Individual throttlebody setups have advantages on naturally aspirated cars. For forced induction, they aren't neccessary. On a supercharger like that, you do place the throttlebody in front of it.

As far as the length of the intake runners, with a blower you've always got air traveling to the engine through the blower. Short is good. On a turbo setup you still rely on the engine to do some breathing work when the turbo is not under boost. Long works here. For this setup, I'd be very simplistic about it. Make them as long as they need to be to fit. After the ar gets running, then you can check the powerband and go make changes to them later. It is a prototype at this point after all.

mike1324a

What about using an air to water intercooler on a turbo setup. That could solve your space issue while being able to use a turbo.

Tudor

Mike,
I mentioned just that in last lines of my previous post. Later I'll p[ost some initial turbo packaging with Laminova core liquid/air intercooler.

Cheers
Ted

shaunv74

Or you could go with Richard Paul's design and omit the intercooler all together...

Tudor

Here's a couple of pictures of turbo setup using Laminova intercooler cores integrated in carbon fiber airbox. It makes for very neat compact package.

Fred, does it look OK to you? That square blue thingy is representing htrottle body.

I need some input on ingectors placement and number and shape of intake manifold pipes.

Cheers
Ted

Tudor

Shaunv74,

Problem is that I don't know nothing about Richards S/C. There's hundreds of pages and no actual data - how much will it make? cost?
We do know fairly well what turbos can do. We have an idea what twin screw can do. So I'm going to try both options. If Richard comes out with dicent product superior to others in some major areas than I would gladly try it as well.


Cheers
Ted

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

I'm no expert but I think a turbo would be better for a race application because of sustained high rpm operation, and the renny loves to be revved. Packaging a water/air intercooler would be interesting.
But I love this car. Crazy lightweight and with 350-bhp you will have a better power to weight ratio than a Porsche Carerra GT that has 550-bhp! No to mention it's rigid as all ****.
I can't wait to see this. And given your suspension engineering background, it's going to handle like stink. I love the outboard idea.
I think the styling is spot-on too. A unique look all it's own. Stunning and functional.
You have to keep us updated on this regulary.
Oh, I had one other quesiton- I assume you're going to sell this car as a full turn-key deal, ready to roll and go? I know with the Noble you get less engine and transaxle. Will you make this avaliable less engine/trans so the customer can put in their own engine? Oh yeah, are you going to use the 6-spd manual from the RX-8 as well?
Thanks, I know it's a lot of quesitons. I envy you- I wish I could do your job!

Dave

mike1324a

Oh im sorry. I missed it when i read your post. Very nice looking.

Tudor

Chickenwafer,
Thanks a lot for kind words. I like turbo myself... I don't mind keeping the revs high. I think that with right combination of components lug could be kept at a minimum. It's also lighter and cheaper.
I'm planning two turbo versions - one with around 300rwhp it will use mostly stock renesis and will be cheaper. Another option will use a bigger turbo good for 350rwhp. It will use substancially strengthened renesis (ceramic apex seals, dowel pins etc.)

SC could find it's way in a less track oriented and more civilized version.

First turbo version will use stock tranny. More powerful version will use rear mounted transaxle.

It is close to impossible to import a turn key car in US without spending gazzillion of dollars. So Murena will be imported as Noble - fully assembled car in one crate and powertrain in separate crate. Than authorized dealer/engine builder will install the engine for client. It's a bit of a pain.

Cheers
Ted

shaunv74

Yep completely understand. You would definitely want proven technology that you're already familiar with in something you're going to put your name and reputation on.

Are you planning on using the stock ignition system? Mazsport has seen the limiting factor at 338 RWHP on their turbo car to be the stock ignition system and the spark blowing out.

Tudor

I'll use stock in less powerful version and aftermarket ignition on 350rwhp version.

Cheers
Ted

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Wow Tudor, how did I not see this thread sooner?! GREAT job so far, can't wait to see this project come to life.

slavearm

I just started a savings account for it.

globi

Nice project and hope you'll succeed.

Oh, btw:
If the engine is in the front, you always need a long hood even with a short motor, otherwise 50/50 is difficult to achieve (unless the car was wide enough such that the driver could place his feet next to the engine or the gearbox was placed in the rear).

WaitingforFI

iTrader: (1)

Ted,
Do you have any conceptual images of the inside? Also as with most any car these days, will it have any safety features; airbags, abs, traction control and the like? Also will it have any trunk?

Thank you,
Kevin

mike1324a

Who needs any of that crap?!?

Tudor

WaitingforFI,
Safety is of primary concern. How ever I see it a bit different.

ABS: its main purpose is to prevent wheel locking. Best braking performance is achieved when 5 – 15% (depending on particular tire) slip is present i.e. when tire is rotating slightly slower than if it will freely rolling. When wheels are locked braking performance is reduce by 30% roughly. Worse than that car is becoming uncontrollable. Also if rear wheels are locked than car will spin at slightest provocation (100% of grip potential is used for braking and nothing is left to produce any cornering force). So ABS must be great feature? Well in theory it is but in reality it’s not true. Have you ever tried braking hard (with ABS) on bumpy surface? To make it short current ABS systems are far from perfect and skilled driver is still able to yield max braking performance without ABS assistance. What is necessary is firm braking pedal (close to zero travel) and good front/rear balance.

Air bags: I don’t really believe in them… How often you see people die in cars equipped with multiple airbags in a crash that in racing world will be considered as errr… “nothing major”?
What I believe in is chassis strength and FIA approved safety harness. Carbon fiber monocoque and integrated FEA spec. roll cage are miles safer than any amount of airbags. Also impact absorbing structures – front/rear/sides should take care that human body doesn’t see G loads higher than it can sustain.

Traction control – the way it is implemented in majority of street cars is simply unacceptable. Instead of making the car faster it makes it slower. How ever, when implemented properly it does help a great deal. It is also extremely hard to do right … It will be offered as an option at a later stage.

Murena will have trunk. Not a huge one thought.

All in all Murena is not intended for high volume production. It’s a “driver’s car” and it is designed with reasonably skilled driver in mind. There’s no point buying a car like that if one doesn’t care to learn to drive properly.

Cheers
Ted

WaitingforFI

iTrader: (1)

The reason I ask is: cars such as the Spyker C8 have abs as do other higher end exotics. I know the however Noble does not. I was just wondering how far he was willing to cater to the mainstream crowd. Those items are not crap. Crap is the average driver on the road. I have been forced to use ABS twice since I have moved to Houston, and I’ve only been here 6 months.
As for the traction control is this going to be more of a launch control, like on some Ferrari’s as opposed to the typical cut fuel and turn on the ABS like most manufactures tend to follow these days?
Ted, thank you for your time in answering all of my questions.

mike1324a

I was joking.

globi

Although I agree such a small series doesn't need any of the aids mentioned.
However, traction control as well as ABS is sometimes utilized in racing (where it is allowed). But it's also tuned more agressively than in an everyday car.

Btw this concept also somewhat reminds of this car (small series but no carbon chassis): http://www.wiesmann-mf.com/egtstart.html

Phantom Menace

looks like Mr. Incredible's car.

WaitingforFI

iTrader: (1)

Bump!
Any new news to speak of?

Tudor

Some major changes going on lately. There will be some updates in about 3 weeks time.

Thank You
Ted

WaitingforFI

iTrader: (1)

Thank you