From Renesis To 13B-Rew
10-04-2005, 11:13 AM
#26
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not fact? provide me a shred of evidence that the renesis was developed as an FI motor... yeah.. didnt think so. if the FI ferries are real, they need to come pay me a visit.
denward
denward
10-04-2005, 11:15 AM
#27
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I totally agree. To make such statements about the Renesis's lack of potential is fallacious. I believe 400 will be topped sooner than ppl think. I seem to remember a lot of muscle-car-heads saying " Front-wheel drivers will never reach the same e. t.'s that RWD's can. " OK. They did. " Well! They'll never make single-digit passes!" We all know how that story ends. Technology, folks. Even kung-fu masters take aspirin for a headache instead of running out to the forest to find some herbs. Yes, I can cite an example.
Last edited by 280RX-8; 10-04-2005 at 11:19 AM. Reason: I type too slowly. Posted after gh0st's last.
10-04-2005, 11:29 AM
#28
Originally Posted by gh0st
not fact? provide me a shred of evidence that the renesis was developed as an FI motor... yeah.. didnt think so. if the FI ferries are real, they need to come pay me a visit.
denward
denward
10-04-2005, 12:15 PM
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now you are just being plain stupid. look under your hood you moron! do you see any turbos?! granted it doesnt mean that it cant be turboed or mazda wont turbo it, but your car directly reflects mazdas vision. WTF man. youve got to be kidding me.
if you think the renesis can indeed out power the 13b-rew then fine. thats your opinion. until someone does it, youve got no leg to stand on in terms of proof. you can have your opinions but dont try to tell me that my NA car wasnt designed to be NA car and FDs werent designed for FI.
denward
if you think the renesis can indeed out power the 13b-rew then fine. thats your opinion. until someone does it, youve got no leg to stand on in terms of proof. you can have your opinions but dont try to tell me that my NA car wasnt designed to be NA car and FDs werent designed for FI.
denward
10-04-2005, 12:47 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by 280RX-8
I totally agree. To make such statements about the Renesis's lack of potential is fallacious. I believe 400 will be topped sooner than ppl think.
10-04-2005, 12:54 PM
#31
So, you're saying that the 13B was designed for forced induction when it was originally released as a naturally aspirated engine like the Renesis was right? The 13B-REW is merely a twin-turbocharged version of the 13B. Basically, 13B + twin turbo = 13B-REW.
By your statements, you're saying that the Renesis isn't an FI developed engine because there was no FI released with it from the factory. By the same logic, the 13B is not an FI developed engine since it also was released without FI from the factory originally. Since the 13B-REW is simply a 13B with twin turbos, that means the factory turbos were never intended to to develop as much power as it was originally intended to since the 13B was released without FI in mind. You are contradicting yourself.
Also, resorting to name calling pretty much shows that you're frustrated with your inability to convey your own thoughts in a clear, lucid manner. You haven't got any argument other than your own opinion.
By your statements, you're saying that the Renesis isn't an FI developed engine because there was no FI released with it from the factory. By the same logic, the 13B is not an FI developed engine since it also was released without FI from the factory originally. Since the 13B-REW is simply a 13B with twin turbos, that means the factory turbos were never intended to to develop as much power as it was originally intended to since the 13B was released without FI in mind. You are contradicting yourself.
Also, resorting to name calling pretty much shows that you're frustrated with your inability to convey your own thoughts in a clear, lucid manner. You haven't got any argument other than your own opinion.
10-04-2005, 01:20 PM
#32
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Damn I'm not here for 3 days and look what happens! Be nice people. We all have opinions.
First of all, I really like the comment that says "provide me a shred of evidence that the renesis was developed as an FI motor... yeah.. didnt think so". This cracks me up. Provide me a shred of evidence that is wasn't!!! How do you know it wasn't? Do you work for Mazda? We've been talking theory. I know some people hate theory but these are usually the people that don't know anything about it and need an excuse to justify it. Typically the people that argue against theory are those who have nothing to prove their own statements. (not even theory!) The fact is that theory is more sound than guessing. Guessing is also an opinion which we all have so even that should be taken with a grain of salt before being so quickly insulted. Yes some of us are guessing and that is being made very clear. The people who guess based on theory, knowhow, and some form of experience are ahead of those who guess with nothing to back it up. Here are some facts. The Renesis engine was designed with larger ports and stronger seals. THis means it is tougher and breathes better than the 13B. What are a couple of very important traits in a forced inducted engine? Possibly breathing and strength? They also made 2 different versions of the engine with drastically different port timings. If I recall correctly the same thing happened with the 2nd gen RX-7 and then a year after it debuted we saw a Turbo II. Not saying we will see a turbo RX-8. After the engineering failure that the 3rd gen was (although a very beautiful one), who knows if we will ever see another turbo rotary from Mazda? Maybe we will maybe we won't. The whole point though is that the Renesis has been designed better with stronger parts and better breathing ability and this is over the last 13B which was a turbo BTW. Look how many people are rebuilding 13B's using Renesis stationary gears and bearings because they are hardened and better. Look how many people have boosted 12A's and originally nonturbo 13B's. This has been done over and over again with great results. How do we know that Mazda didn't actually build the Renesis with forced induction in mind but just didn't add it? It would be far easier to build a stronger motor and then make it more powerful later than it would be to build a weak engine and try to upgrade it later. How do we know this wasn't the case? There is no more evidence to say that it wasn't done this way that there is to say that it was. Since the Renesis is a better engine than the 13B, it is conceivable that it would do very well turbocharged. If you can get higher horsepower numbers with a worse engine, you should be able to do it with a better engine as well. How hard would it be for Mazda to come out with a set of lower compression rotors for the engine? They made 2 different port configurations. They made different compression ratios for past engines. What's so hard about doing it again if they need to? Nothing! It would be very easy to add these to an engine that is already strong enough to handle it. Judging by what they have improved, it can definitely handle it. We don't actually know that we will see a boosted Renesis from Mazda though. Maybe, maybe not. Even if we don't, it is ludicrous to say it can't handle boost. Only inexperience with boost would make a claim like this.
It's true that with the higher compression ratio we should theoretically hit the power limit on pump gas faster than with lower compression. Probably will. Keep in mind though that Rotary Perfomance has built many streetported 3rd gen RX-7's with the 9.7:1 compression ratio rotors (designed for a NON TURBO 89-91 RX-7) and run them just fine at over 400 rwhp on pump gas. Turbo lag is lowered, response is better, and off boost power and economy are improved. Also keep in mind that the 13B has port overlap that the Renesis doesn't. This means the 13B has more exhaust gas dilution than the Renesis which means a hotter intake charge with less oxygen. This should be good for something on the Renesis. A certain boost number in psi is a worthless thing to judge. Look at the sister forum to see how many people ask how many psi they can run. Worthless info. It tells us nothing. A higher compression engine can run less boost and get more power up to a point. Where is the limit for the Renesis? Don't know yet. Not sure we truly know the limit for a 13B as people keep blowing them up at ALL power levels. Tuning? My money is somewhere above 400 rwhp on pump gas with good tuning and I'm sure we'll see it. That's plenty for most RX-8 owners. (Disclaimer: That last part is called an opinion! Draw your own conclusions).
First of all, I really like the comment that says "provide me a shred of evidence that the renesis was developed as an FI motor... yeah.. didnt think so". This cracks me up. Provide me a shred of evidence that is wasn't!!! How do you know it wasn't? Do you work for Mazda? We've been talking theory. I know some people hate theory but these are usually the people that don't know anything about it and need an excuse to justify it. Typically the people that argue against theory are those who have nothing to prove their own statements. (not even theory!) The fact is that theory is more sound than guessing. Guessing is also an opinion which we all have so even that should be taken with a grain of salt before being so quickly insulted. Yes some of us are guessing and that is being made very clear. The people who guess based on theory, knowhow, and some form of experience are ahead of those who guess with nothing to back it up. Here are some facts. The Renesis engine was designed with larger ports and stronger seals. THis means it is tougher and breathes better than the 13B. What are a couple of very important traits in a forced inducted engine? Possibly breathing and strength? They also made 2 different versions of the engine with drastically different port timings. If I recall correctly the same thing happened with the 2nd gen RX-7 and then a year after it debuted we saw a Turbo II. Not saying we will see a turbo RX-8. After the engineering failure that the 3rd gen was (although a very beautiful one), who knows if we will ever see another turbo rotary from Mazda? Maybe we will maybe we won't. The whole point though is that the Renesis has been designed better with stronger parts and better breathing ability and this is over the last 13B which was a turbo BTW. Look how many people are rebuilding 13B's using Renesis stationary gears and bearings because they are hardened and better. Look how many people have boosted 12A's and originally nonturbo 13B's. This has been done over and over again with great results. How do we know that Mazda didn't actually build the Renesis with forced induction in mind but just didn't add it? It would be far easier to build a stronger motor and then make it more powerful later than it would be to build a weak engine and try to upgrade it later. How do we know this wasn't the case? There is no more evidence to say that it wasn't done this way that there is to say that it was. Since the Renesis is a better engine than the 13B, it is conceivable that it would do very well turbocharged. If you can get higher horsepower numbers with a worse engine, you should be able to do it with a better engine as well. How hard would it be for Mazda to come out with a set of lower compression rotors for the engine? They made 2 different port configurations. They made different compression ratios for past engines. What's so hard about doing it again if they need to? Nothing! It would be very easy to add these to an engine that is already strong enough to handle it. Judging by what they have improved, it can definitely handle it. We don't actually know that we will see a boosted Renesis from Mazda though. Maybe, maybe not. Even if we don't, it is ludicrous to say it can't handle boost. Only inexperience with boost would make a claim like this.
It's true that with the higher compression ratio we should theoretically hit the power limit on pump gas faster than with lower compression. Probably will. Keep in mind though that Rotary Perfomance has built many streetported 3rd gen RX-7's with the 9.7:1 compression ratio rotors (designed for a NON TURBO 89-91 RX-7) and run them just fine at over 400 rwhp on pump gas. Turbo lag is lowered, response is better, and off boost power and economy are improved. Also keep in mind that the 13B has port overlap that the Renesis doesn't. This means the 13B has more exhaust gas dilution than the Renesis which means a hotter intake charge with less oxygen. This should be good for something on the Renesis. A certain boost number in psi is a worthless thing to judge. Look at the sister forum to see how many people ask how many psi they can run. Worthless info. It tells us nothing. A higher compression engine can run less boost and get more power up to a point. Where is the limit for the Renesis? Don't know yet. Not sure we truly know the limit for a 13B as people keep blowing them up at ALL power levels. Tuning? My money is somewhere above 400 rwhp on pump gas with good tuning and I'm sure we'll see it. That's plenty for most RX-8 owners. (Disclaimer: That last part is called an opinion! Draw your own conclusions).
10-04-2005, 04:02 PM
#35
Spinning Aint Winning
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OK, the Verdict is in.... Thanks to everyone for all your input regarding both engines 
. However I've decided to stick with the Renesis for producing my goal of around 400hp. I have already orderd the parts to hopefully make this happen or at least get me in the ball park 
.
Parts List
Greddy Turbo Kit
Interceptor-X EMS "E-manage is going BYE-BYE
"
ZEX Wet Kit "Already Installed"
Greddy RS BOV
Greddy Oil Pan
Greddy "E-01" Boost Controller
RX-7.com - "Supercat" Mid Pipe
SR Pullys "Already Installed"
SR Aluminum Fly wheel & Extreem Clutch set
SR Aluminum Radiator
PS- Thanks RG for hooking me up with Curt at CCS Motors, He seems to really know his stuff and has a kick *** shop :D . The install should take place next week & will hopfully have some dyno #'s late next week. I'll post them as soon as I can.
. However I've decided to stick with the Renesis for producing my goal of around 400hp. I have already orderd the parts to hopefully make this happen or at least get me in the ball park .Parts List
Greddy Turbo Kit
Interceptor-X EMS "E-manage is going BYE-BYE
"ZEX Wet Kit "Already Installed"
Greddy RS BOV
Greddy Oil Pan
Greddy "E-01" Boost Controller
RX-7.com - "Supercat" Mid Pipe
SR Pullys "Already Installed"
SR Aluminum Fly wheel & Extreem Clutch set
SR Aluminum Radiator
PS- Thanks RG for hooking me up with Curt at CCS Motors, He seems to really know his stuff and has a kick *** shop :D . The install should take place next week & will hopfully have some dyno #'s late next week. I'll post them as soon as I can.
10-04-2005, 05:41 PM
#37
Registered
Originally Posted by RX10000RPM
OK, the Verdict is in.... Thanks to everyone for all your input regarding both engines . However I've decided to stick with the Renesis for producing my goal of around 400hp. I have already orderd the parts to hopefully make this happen or at least get me in the ball park .
Parts List
Greddy Turbo Kit
Interceptor-X EMS "E-manage is going BYE-BYE "
ZEX Wet Kit "Already Installed"
Greddy RS BOV
Greddy Oil Pan
Greddy "E-01" Boost Controller
RX-7.com - "Supercat" Mid Pipe
SR Pullys "Already Installed"
SR Aluminum Fly wheel & Extreem Clutch set
SR Aluminum Radiator
PS- Thanks RG for hooking me up with Curt at CCS Motors, He seems to really know his stuff and has a kick *** shop :D . The install should take place next week & will hopfully have some dyno #'s late next week. I'll post them as soon as I can.
. However I've decided to stick with the Renesis for producing my goal of around 400hp. I have already orderd the parts to hopefully make this happen or at least get me in the ball park .Parts List
Greddy Turbo Kit
Interceptor-X EMS "E-manage is going BYE-BYE
"ZEX Wet Kit "Already Installed"
Greddy RS BOV
Greddy Oil Pan
Greddy "E-01" Boost Controller
RX-7.com - "Supercat" Mid Pipe
SR Pullys "Already Installed"
SR Aluminum Fly wheel & Extreem Clutch set
SR Aluminum Radiator
PS- Thanks RG for hooking me up with Curt at CCS Motors, He seems to really know his stuff and has a kick *** shop :D . The install should take place next week & will hopfully have some dyno #'s late next week. I'll post them as soon as I can.
Nitrous scares me when used with a turbo so be careful with that! Tune it VERY carefully.
10-04-2005, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Damn I'm not here for 3 days and look what happens! Be nice people. We all have opinions.
First of all, I really like the comment that says "provide me a shred of evidence that the renesis was developed as an FI motor... yeah.. didnt think so". This cracks me up. Provide me a shred of evidence that is wasn't!!! How do you know it wasn't? Do you work for Mazda? We've been talking theory. I know some people hate theory but these are usually the people that don't know anything about it and need an excuse to justify it. Typically the people that argue against theory are those who have nothing to prove their own statements. (not even theory!) The fact is that theory is more sound than guessing. Guessing is also an opinion which we all have so even that should be taken with a grain of salt before being so quickly insulted. Yes some of us are guessing and that is being made very clear. The people who guess based on theory, knowhow, and some form of experience are ahead of those who guess with nothing to back it up. Here are some facts. The Renesis engine was designed with larger ports and stronger seals. THis means it is tougher and breathes better than the 13B. What are a couple of very important traits in a forced inducted engine? Possibly breathing and strength? They also made 2 different versions of the engine with drastically different port timings. If I recall correctly the same thing happened with the 2nd gen RX-7 and then a year after it debuted we saw a Turbo II. Not saying we will see a turbo RX-8. After the engineering failure that the 3rd gen was (although a very beautiful one), who knows if we will ever see another turbo rotary from Mazda? Maybe we will maybe we won't. The whole point though is that the Renesis has been designed better with stronger parts and better breathing ability and this is over the last 13B which was a turbo BTW. Look how many people are rebuilding 13B's using Renesis stationary gears and bearings because they are hardened and better. Look how many people have boosted 12A's and originally nonturbo 13B's. This has been done over and over again with great results. How do we know that Mazda didn't actually build the Renesis with forced induction in mind but just didn't add it? It would be far easier to build a stronger motor and then make it more powerful later than it would be to build a weak engine and try to upgrade it later. How do we know this wasn't the case? There is no more evidence to say that it wasn't done this way that there is to say that it was. Since the Renesis is a better engine than the 13B, it is conceivable that it would do very well turbocharged. If you can get higher horsepower numbers with a worse engine, you should be able to do it with a better engine as well. How hard would it be for Mazda to come out with a set of lower compression rotors for the engine? They made 2 different port configurations. They made different compression ratios for past engines. What's so hard about doing it again if they need to? Nothing! It would be very easy to add these to an engine that is already strong enough to handle it. Judging by what they have improved, it can definitely handle it. We don't actually know that we will see a boosted Renesis from Mazda though. Maybe, maybe not. Even if we don't, it is ludicrous to say it can't handle boost. Only inexperience with boost would make a claim like this.
It's true that with the higher compression ratio we should theoretically hit the power limit on pump gas faster than with lower compression. Probably will. Keep in mind though that Rotary Perfomance has built many streetported 3rd gen RX-7's with the 9.7:1 compression ratio rotors (designed for a NON TURBO 89-91 RX-7) and run them just fine at over 400 rwhp on pump gas. Turbo lag is lowered, response is better, and off boost power and economy are improved. Also keep in mind that the 13B has port overlap that the Renesis doesn't. This means the 13B has more exhaust gas dilution than the Renesis which means a hotter intake charge with less oxygen. This should be good for something on the Renesis. A certain boost number in psi is a worthless thing to judge. Look at the sister forum to see how many people ask how many psi they can run. Worthless info. It tells us nothing. A higher compression engine can run less boost and get more power up to a point. Where is the limit for the Renesis? Don't know yet. Not sure we truly know the limit for a 13B as people keep blowing them up at ALL power levels. Tuning? My money is somewhere above 400 rwhp on pump gas with good tuning and I'm sure we'll see it. That's plenty for most RX-8 owners. (Disclaimer: That last part is called an opinion! Draw your own conclusions).
First of all, I really like the comment that says "provide me a shred of evidence that the renesis was developed as an FI motor... yeah.. didnt think so". This cracks me up. Provide me a shred of evidence that is wasn't!!! How do you know it wasn't? Do you work for Mazda? We've been talking theory. I know some people hate theory but these are usually the people that don't know anything about it and need an excuse to justify it. Typically the people that argue against theory are those who have nothing to prove their own statements. (not even theory!) The fact is that theory is more sound than guessing. Guessing is also an opinion which we all have so even that should be taken with a grain of salt before being so quickly insulted. Yes some of us are guessing and that is being made very clear. The people who guess based on theory, knowhow, and some form of experience are ahead of those who guess with nothing to back it up. Here are some facts. The Renesis engine was designed with larger ports and stronger seals. THis means it is tougher and breathes better than the 13B. What are a couple of very important traits in a forced inducted engine? Possibly breathing and strength? They also made 2 different versions of the engine with drastically different port timings. If I recall correctly the same thing happened with the 2nd gen RX-7 and then a year after it debuted we saw a Turbo II. Not saying we will see a turbo RX-8. After the engineering failure that the 3rd gen was (although a very beautiful one), who knows if we will ever see another turbo rotary from Mazda? Maybe we will maybe we won't. The whole point though is that the Renesis has been designed better with stronger parts and better breathing ability and this is over the last 13B which was a turbo BTW. Look how many people are rebuilding 13B's using Renesis stationary gears and bearings because they are hardened and better. Look how many people have boosted 12A's and originally nonturbo 13B's. This has been done over and over again with great results. How do we know that Mazda didn't actually build the Renesis with forced induction in mind but just didn't add it? It would be far easier to build a stronger motor and then make it more powerful later than it would be to build a weak engine and try to upgrade it later. How do we know this wasn't the case? There is no more evidence to say that it wasn't done this way that there is to say that it was. Since the Renesis is a better engine than the 13B, it is conceivable that it would do very well turbocharged. If you can get higher horsepower numbers with a worse engine, you should be able to do it with a better engine as well. How hard would it be for Mazda to come out with a set of lower compression rotors for the engine? They made 2 different port configurations. They made different compression ratios for past engines. What's so hard about doing it again if they need to? Nothing! It would be very easy to add these to an engine that is already strong enough to handle it. Judging by what they have improved, it can definitely handle it. We don't actually know that we will see a boosted Renesis from Mazda though. Maybe, maybe not. Even if we don't, it is ludicrous to say it can't handle boost. Only inexperience with boost would make a claim like this.
It's true that with the higher compression ratio we should theoretically hit the power limit on pump gas faster than with lower compression. Probably will. Keep in mind though that Rotary Perfomance has built many streetported 3rd gen RX-7's with the 9.7:1 compression ratio rotors (designed for a NON TURBO 89-91 RX-7) and run them just fine at over 400 rwhp on pump gas. Turbo lag is lowered, response is better, and off boost power and economy are improved. Also keep in mind that the 13B has port overlap that the Renesis doesn't. This means the 13B has more exhaust gas dilution than the Renesis which means a hotter intake charge with less oxygen. This should be good for something on the Renesis. A certain boost number in psi is a worthless thing to judge. Look at the sister forum to see how many people ask how many psi they can run. Worthless info. It tells us nothing. A higher compression engine can run less boost and get more power up to a point. Where is the limit for the Renesis? Don't know yet. Not sure we truly know the limit for a 13B as people keep blowing them up at ALL power levels. Tuning? My money is somewhere above 400 rwhp on pump gas with good tuning and I'm sure we'll see it. That's plenty for most RX-8 owners. (Disclaimer: That last part is called an opinion! Draw your own conclusions).
Thats one helluva verbose, (but more detailed) way of reiterating what I posted before..
Nice read though :D
10-04-2005, 08:48 PM
#39
Need'd a Turbo
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Will the greddy kit make that much. I know there is a mazsport uprade in the works and it will break 300whp but i dont think it will reach 400. Im not sure what nitrous will give you though (im not into nitrous).
10-04-2005, 09:16 PM
#41
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I think Scott can get it tuned in the 310-325hp range with the higher flow turbo upgrade. Maybe more? This would be with the stock fuel system! Not to bad! Any more than this you would need some fuel upgrades for sure!! 
Just my thoughts!
Just my thoughts!
10-04-2005, 10:51 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by guitarjunkie28
why doesn't anyone listen when i say gt35r?
10-05-2005, 08:55 PM
#45
screw the 13b - go with the LS1 - same price for the swap, WAY more torque and better power delivery
plus, reliability
PLUS it weighs less than the 13b
I've talked to hinson supercars about it - they'll do it for you
www.hinsonsupercars.com
plus, reliability
PLUS it weighs less than the 13b
I've talked to hinson supercars about it - they'll do it for you
www.hinsonsupercars.com
10-05-2005, 10:23 PM
#47
Need'd a Turbo
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less weight.... i doubt it. not to mention the engine is part of the magic. why would you get rid of one of the best parts of the car!?!
Last edited by mike1324a; 10-05-2005 at 10:28 PM.
10-05-2005, 10:34 PM
#49
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i dont know about weighing less than a 13b but i assume you did your homework in which case WOW
i thouht the ls1 was quite a bit heavier(still a light engine though)
either way the ls1 is too big to be placed the same was the 13b so goodbye weight balance, hello engine that should be in a muscle car and not a well balanced good handling sportscar...
i thouht the ls1 was quite a bit heavier(still a light engine though)
either way the ls1 is too big to be placed the same was the 13b so goodbye weight balance, hello engine that should be in a muscle car and not a well balanced good handling sportscar...