Question about Bumping the power up on the Renesis
02-13-2006, 11:04 AM
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Question about Bumping the power up on the Renesis
Well I don't want to get into to much details but the question is very simple,
I have a spare renesis motor , and I have the resources to make a turbo manifold and intercooler setup at basicly at a very low cost and i have a large arsenal of turbo's to choose from ( anything from a GT series turbo to your standard T3/T4 Turbonetics turbo's)
The question is , what is the first thing to go on these motors when you run to much boost?
I heard from one of my friends that the prob with the 8's is basicly the housings that are pretty much glass and in many cases there is some problems in the oil seals is this correct?
So what I am asking for what is the weak link of the motor and if there is any way to "beef" up the motor to take a lot of power.
I don't plan on switching to an older generation motor and for sure i am not going to run a 20b... I want to keep the handling characteristics as close to stock as possible.
LIke I said I have the resources to build up the car.. the prob is I am not sure what has to be build up in the motor to take up the power.
I am not posting HP goals since its basicly unrealistic in this case since this car would go into the world of the uknown.. I don't want to claim the highest HP RX-8 or the fastest 1/4 RX-8.. I am looking at a clear balance of handling and the extra "unf" this car is missing and at the same time.. I wouldn't mind the car beating big turbo SRT's in the street either lol
Anyhow your input would be most appreciated.
I have a spare renesis motor , and I have the resources to make a turbo manifold and intercooler setup at basicly at a very low cost and i have a large arsenal of turbo's to choose from ( anything from a GT series turbo to your standard T3/T4 Turbonetics turbo's)
The question is , what is the first thing to go on these motors when you run to much boost?
I heard from one of my friends that the prob with the 8's is basicly the housings that are pretty much glass and in many cases there is some problems in the oil seals is this correct?
So what I am asking for what is the weak link of the motor and if there is any way to "beef" up the motor to take a lot of power.
I don't plan on switching to an older generation motor and for sure i am not going to run a 20b... I want to keep the handling characteristics as close to stock as possible.
LIke I said I have the resources to build up the car.. the prob is I am not sure what has to be build up in the motor to take up the power.
I am not posting HP goals since its basicly unrealistic in this case since this car would go into the world of the uknown.. I don't want to claim the highest HP RX-8 or the fastest 1/4 RX-8.. I am looking at a clear balance of handling and the extra "unf" this car is missing and at the same time.. I wouldn't mind the car beating big turbo SRT's in the street either lol
Anyhow your input would be most appreciated.
02-13-2006, 01:12 PM
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your friend is wrong, the housings are not glass
pick a goal, do the math, size the turbo and build it..there isn't much in the realm of stronger internal parts for the renesis, but I don't know of any documented cases where a properly installed and tuned turbo setup has blown a motor. One guy ran 15.5 psi on the renesis, and it was the turbo that failed, not the motor. you have to throw out the paradigm associated with previous rotaries, and take this on as something entirely different.
I'd model your setup after something that's already been proven...like the SFR or the greddy kit. mazdamaniac fabbed his own t4 kit with great results, and a guy in puerto rico built a kit around a gt30. do a search, all the info is out there.
..also there's a group buy going on for the interceptor-x, the top of the line plug-n-play EMS for the rx-8. you may want to take advantage of that.
pick a goal, do the math, size the turbo and build it..there isn't much in the realm of stronger internal parts for the renesis, but I don't know of any documented cases where a properly installed and tuned turbo setup has blown a motor. One guy ran 15.5 psi on the renesis, and it was the turbo that failed, not the motor. you have to throw out the paradigm associated with previous rotaries, and take this on as something entirely different.
I'd model your setup after something that's already been proven...like the SFR or the greddy kit. mazdamaniac fabbed his own t4 kit with great results, and a guy in puerto rico built a kit around a gt30. do a search, all the info is out there.
..also there's a group buy going on for the interceptor-x, the top of the line plug-n-play EMS for the rx-8. you may want to take advantage of that.
02-13-2006, 05:12 PM
#5
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intake and exhaust ports need some work to increase flow. so a nic eport/polish/smoothing etc job. get some iannettti apex seals. make sure the turbo manifold is port matched. switch all the injectors to the 490s or whatever those blue ones are. think about changing the fuel system to a return system. stock is returnless. might need to up the fuel pressure while your at it. when someone figures it out you will want to upgrade the coils. add fuel pressure , oil pressure, oil temp, water temp, exhaust gas temp sensor/guages and a wider wide band O2.
02-13-2006, 11:53 PM
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My approach has been to watch these forums very closely over the last 3 weeks and read all the back discussion threads on turboed RX8's. I made the decision to FI my RX8 last month (prolly the only person in New Zealand so far as I know..ppl fill me in if Im wrong!). This site has been a wealth of info.
As has been pointed out there is no real issue with the Renesis motor as much as reliability and strength are concerned....is fact most are of the opinion the Renesis is stronger than a 13BREW (stock for stock).
The issue is the ECU. If you take some time and make an effort to read the existing threads as I have done you soon gather this is a bit of a hurdle.....but its not impossible..and there are many different options being explored.
As has been pointed out there is no real issue with the Renesis motor as much as reliability and strength are concerned....is fact most are of the opinion the Renesis is stronger than a 13BREW (stock for stock).
The issue is the ECU. If you take some time and make an effort to read the existing threads as I have done you soon gather this is a bit of a hurdle.....but its not impossible..and there are many different options being explored.
02-14-2006, 12:29 AM
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Pretty much what everyone has said...
Zoom44 went a bit overboard though. The Renesis in just about everyway has been built strong than the 13b-REW. The seals are stronger and seal better. They even help to remove carbon build up! The rotors are not only stronger, but lighter. According to some very knowledgable members, the change to all side ports helps to make the Renesis handle detonation better than any previous rotary. Charles Hill and a couple other members have hit a decent amount of detonation while experimenting/tuning their cars... no blown motors for them. Porting... many think that there isn't much to get on the intake side... between size of the ports and port timing... there is little if anything left. The exhaust ports... the common thought is that some INTERNAL work could be done to smooth them out... work on the 90 degree turn it is said to have.
Your biggest obstacle is the ECU. The best plug-and-play solution available right now is the Interceptor-X. The emanage can do a decent job with it setup how MadDog and MazdaManiac have done. Both have their weaknesses... last I heard there no cruise control with the Interceptor-X and I believe that it supposedly throws CELs too. eManage... well until a fix for the eManage Ultimate comes out... you can only add timing and fully control 1 set of injectors (P2 is recommended)... this partial control is said to be good for +/- 4%... although no LTFT issues have arisen yet. There are supposedly a couple ECU "flash tuners" in the works and there has been some investigation done here on this forum... nothing completed yet.
Turbo manifold... SFR and PTP use a manifold that mounts the turbo in front of the engine... around the battery location (requiring relocating the battery). MazdaManiac has raised his criticisms about this setup... underhood temps and personally I don't find it visually appealing. The GReddy manifold may be a good place to start, but... the space down there is tight. Something bigger than the kit's turbo is going to be tough... although I think a forum member has gotten a GT30R on that manifold. MazdaManiac made his own manifold based off the stock one. His setup required him to mount the turbo at an angle to get it to fit and have proper oil drain.
Speaking of oil drain... getting the GReddy oil pan is probably a good idea. More oil capacity and you don't have to worry about drill the stock oil pan and welding in outlet/inlet.
The stock fuel system... injector wise you are supposedly good up to about 300whp. Others have changed the injectors, but kept the same fuel system and have been doing alright. It may not be necessary to change out the returnless system unless you want crazy power.
Power goals... well a number may not be your goal, but "umph" is. How much "umph"? MazdaManiac and MadDog seem very happy with their amount of power. Seems most are fine with 240-300whp. The turbo people say it has a stronger low-end and it pulls strong on the highway too.
Hope this helps.
Zoom44 went a bit overboard though. The Renesis in just about everyway has been built strong than the 13b-REW. The seals are stronger and seal better. They even help to remove carbon build up! The rotors are not only stronger, but lighter. According to some very knowledgable members, the change to all side ports helps to make the Renesis handle detonation better than any previous rotary. Charles Hill and a couple other members have hit a decent amount of detonation while experimenting/tuning their cars... no blown motors for them. Porting... many think that there isn't much to get on the intake side... between size of the ports and port timing... there is little if anything left. The exhaust ports... the common thought is that some INTERNAL work could be done to smooth them out... work on the 90 degree turn it is said to have.
Your biggest obstacle is the ECU. The best plug-and-play solution available right now is the Interceptor-X. The emanage can do a decent job with it setup how MadDog and MazdaManiac have done. Both have their weaknesses... last I heard there no cruise control with the Interceptor-X and I believe that it supposedly throws CELs too. eManage... well until a fix for the eManage Ultimate comes out... you can only add timing and fully control 1 set of injectors (P2 is recommended)... this partial control is said to be good for +/- 4%... although no LTFT issues have arisen yet. There are supposedly a couple ECU "flash tuners" in the works and there has been some investigation done here on this forum... nothing completed yet.
Turbo manifold... SFR and PTP use a manifold that mounts the turbo in front of the engine... around the battery location (requiring relocating the battery). MazdaManiac has raised his criticisms about this setup... underhood temps and personally I don't find it visually appealing. The GReddy manifold may be a good place to start, but... the space down there is tight. Something bigger than the kit's turbo is going to be tough... although I think a forum member has gotten a GT30R on that manifold. MazdaManiac made his own manifold based off the stock one. His setup required him to mount the turbo at an angle to get it to fit and have proper oil drain.
Speaking of oil drain... getting the GReddy oil pan is probably a good idea. More oil capacity and you don't have to worry about drill the stock oil pan and welding in outlet/inlet.
The stock fuel system... injector wise you are supposedly good up to about 300whp. Others have changed the injectors, but kept the same fuel system and have been doing alright. It may not be necessary to change out the returnless system unless you want crazy power.
Power goals... well a number may not be your goal, but "umph" is. How much "umph"? MazdaManiac and MadDog seem very happy with their amount of power. Seems most are fine with 240-300whp. The turbo people say it has a stronger low-end and it pulls strong on the highway too.
Hope this helps.
02-14-2006, 11:31 AM
#8
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he has a spare engine. so i was basing it basically what i would do in the same situ.
so doing the best job on the ports that can be done plus getting the best seals he can only makes sense. getting the manifold matched to the redone exhaust ports only makes sense. no "one size fits all" manifold. i personally like the forward mounted turbo but i havent seen any data that says its a bad place. if mazda were to do a turbo they would have to place it in front just to put some distance between the turbo and the cat( for fed. mandated cat longevity purposes). id love to see someone do an sts setup on an 8 just to see how its piped and how it flows.
if he has the resources to fab the manifold etc. then he should get his own oil pan made rather than paying the $ to greddy.
so doing the best job on the ports that can be done plus getting the best seals he can only makes sense. getting the manifold matched to the redone exhaust ports only makes sense. no "one size fits all" manifold. i personally like the forward mounted turbo but i havent seen any data that says its a bad place. if mazda were to do a turbo they would have to place it in front just to put some distance between the turbo and the cat( for fed. mandated cat longevity purposes). id love to see someone do an sts setup on an 8 just to see how its piped and how it flows.
if he has the resources to fab the manifold etc. then he should get his own oil pan made rather than paying the $ to greddy.
02-14-2006, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
he has a spare engine. so i was basing it basically what i would do in the same situ.
so doing the best job on the ports that can be done plus getting the best seals he can only makes sense. getting the manifold matched to the redone exhaust ports only makes sense. no "one size fits all" manifold. i personally like the forward mounted turbo but i havent seen any data that says its a bad place. if mazda were to do a turbo they would have to place it in front just to put some distance between the turbo and the cat( for fed. mandated cat longevity purposes). id love to see someone do an sts setup on an 8 just to see how its piped and how it flows.
if he has the resources to fab the manifold etc. then he should get his own oil pan made rather than paying the $ to greddy.
so doing the best job on the ports that can be done plus getting the best seals he can only makes sense. getting the manifold matched to the redone exhaust ports only makes sense. no "one size fits all" manifold. i personally like the forward mounted turbo but i havent seen any data that says its a bad place. if mazda were to do a turbo they would have to place it in front just to put some distance between the turbo and the cat( for fed. mandated cat longevity purposes). id love to see someone do an sts setup on an 8 just to see how its piped and how it flows.
if he has the resources to fab the manifold etc. then he should get his own oil pan made rather than paying the $ to greddy.
MazdaManiac didn't like it for heat issues. I can see them too. I didn't like the ascetics. I like the clean OEM look and that mounting just isn't it.
02-14-2006, 08:44 PM
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yes you are right for CARB purposes but putting it any closer( if they even could) would not allow it to pass the US EPA cat longevity rules. its defintely a tricky issue for Mazda.
i personally think seeing the turbo out in front is more aesthetically pleasing. heat shields can protect the belts and hood. hell put a vented hood on.
i personally think seeing the turbo out in front is more aesthetically pleasing. heat shields can protect the belts and hood. hell put a vented hood on.
02-14-2006, 09:36 PM
#11
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I would say as others have that the biggest issue is the ECU and tuning. The stock seals are plenty strong, but you don't get a second chance as far as detonation goes.
Build the motor, mitigate heat as best you can, and get a good tuner to work with you with a good ECU (the mazsport interceptor comes to mind) and create a good moderately conservative tune.
spend the money, tune it right the first time.
Build the motor, mitigate heat as best you can, and get a good tuner to work with you with a good ECU (the mazsport interceptor comes to mind) and create a good moderately conservative tune.
spend the money, tune it right the first time.
02-14-2006, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
yes you are right for CARB purposes but putting it any closer( if they even could) would not allow it to pass the US EPA cat longevity rules. its defintely a tricky issue for Mazda.
i personally think seeing the turbo out in front is more aesthetically pleasing. heat shields can protect the belts and hood. hell put a vented hood on.
i personally think seeing the turbo out in front is more aesthetically pleasing. heat shields can protect the belts and hood. hell put a vented hood on.
To each his own I suppose. I don't like looking F&F. I like sleeper cars and keeping an OEM look. I also don't appreciate the look of a turbocharger... so I don't really want to see it. It doesn't look "hawt" or "fast" or whatever to me. Mounting it up front just looks like a homemade fab kit in my eyes. Heat shields just look ghetto and are more of a band aid than a solution.
But that is all my opinion.
02-15-2006, 04:52 PM
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thank you guys..
Defintely a good read.. and even though I know I could search the information , I just wanted some input.
Especially the guy that is fabbing the mani will have a better idea on where to locate it.
Has anyone tried running a non plug and play standalone?
btw unf levels are around 350-400whp I could even say 500.. but again I am determining what has to be built or worked on the motor before trying to achieve those power levels..
My SRT is pushing close to 500whp..
but I like the driving style of the 8 its more refined and better built.. but having a few couple 100 extra ponies wouldn't hurt
Defintely a good read.. and even though I know I could search the information , I just wanted some input.
Especially the guy that is fabbing the mani will have a better idea on where to locate it.
Has anyone tried running a non plug and play standalone?
btw unf levels are around 350-400whp I could even say 500.. but again I am determining what has to be built or worked on the motor before trying to achieve those power levels..
My SRT is pushing close to 500whp..
but I like the driving style of the 8 its more refined and better built.. but having a few couple 100 extra ponies wouldn't hurt
Last edited by FastAttack; 02-15-2006 at 04:58 PM.
02-16-2006, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
im not putting a turbo on my car either but i cant say i mind seeing them
for instance
that looks both "hawt" and fast
for instance
that looks both "hawt" and fast
02-16-2006, 10:21 AM
#16
Originally Posted by FastAttack
thank you guys..
Defintely a good read.. and even though I know I could search the information , I just wanted some input.
Especially the guy that is fabbing the mani will have a better idea on where to locate it.
Has anyone tried running a non plug and play standalone?
btw unf levels are around 350-400whp I could even say 500.. but again I am determining what has to be built or worked on the motor before trying to achieve those power levels..
My SRT is pushing close to 500whp..
but I like the driving style of the 8 its more refined and better built.. but having a few couple 100 extra ponies wouldn't hurt
Defintely a good read.. and even though I know I could search the information , I just wanted some input.
Especially the guy that is fabbing the mani will have a better idea on where to locate it.
Has anyone tried running a non plug and play standalone?
btw unf levels are around 350-400whp I could even say 500.. but again I am determining what has to be built or worked on the motor before trying to achieve those power levels..
My SRT is pushing close to 500whp..
but I like the driving style of the 8 its more refined and better built.. but having a few couple 100 extra ponies wouldn't hurt
right now it'd be VERY hard to get that out of a renesis. you'd be better off throwing a 3 rotor in there and running a mild 6-7 psi and that'd nail you 450+ whp right there with time proven longevity and existing equipment.
02-16-2006, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Aseras
right now it'd be VERY hard to get that out of a renesis. you'd be better off throwing a 3 rotor in there and running a mild 6-7 psi and that'd nail you 450+ whp right there with time proven longevity and existing equipment.
Caio's Custom kit
https://www.rx8club.com/australia-new-zealand-forum-37/ozzy-custom-turbo-install-72328/
PTP's kit
https://www.rx8club.com/moved-thread-holding-area-119/new-protechperformance-ptp-rx-8-turbo-kit-44537/
600whp target onthis custom kit.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...=major+project
Other notable projects are the SFR Turbo kit and Some of the Greddy guys with custom or upgraded parts.
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