Power Enterprises Supercharger at SEMA
11-06-2005, 01:40 PM
#28
Go Texas Longhorns!
a light boost s/c simply doesn't need it down there to be effective. The air is already cooler to begin with not being pumped through a superhot turbo.
everyone is so use to thinking about the issues with turbos, especially rotary turbos here that people are going to have to change there way of thinking slighty when working with a supercharger.
This simplifies the install and cost I'm sure. Sure a front mount would work, but this seems like perfectly good compromise between cooling and ease of install.
everyone is so use to thinking about the issues with turbos, especially rotary turbos here that people are going to have to change there way of thinking slighty when working with a supercharger.
This simplifies the install and cost I'm sure. Sure a front mount would work, but this seems like perfectly good compromise between cooling and ease of install.
11-06-2005, 03:07 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by mike1324a
I still dont see why someone would put the intercooler there and not up front where it can actually get lot of cool air not just a little.
Piping, packaging, cooling for car (we learned in the 90's blocking the radiator with a fmic can be bad), and that location pulls plenty of cool air.
11-06-2005, 10:43 PM
#30
Brian, did you check which Roots they were using?
Roots blowers get a lot of smack talk over efficiency issues, but the M45 cold side install on my Miata rocked - instant throttle response and a flat torque curve all the way to the (7000 rpm) redline. No intercooler required.
Subjectively, it made the Miata feel a lot like an RX-8 - a broad torque curve that pulled straight to the redline (but it was a little quicker than a stock '8). It just felt like I had a bigger engine under the hood. No boost onset issues - just more torque.
If somebody could do that for the '8 it would be awesome. I don't know if this kit does it but I can hope...
Roots blowers get a lot of smack talk over efficiency issues, but the M45 cold side install on my Miata rocked - instant throttle response and a flat torque curve all the way to the (7000 rpm) redline. No intercooler required.
Subjectively, it made the Miata feel a lot like an RX-8 - a broad torque curve that pulled straight to the redline (but it was a little quicker than a stock '8). It just felt like I had a bigger engine under the hood. No boost onset issues - just more torque.
If somebody could do that for the '8 it would be awesome. I don't know if this kit does it but I can hope...
11-07-2005, 10:40 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by brillo
a light boost s/c simply doesn't need it down there to be effective. The air is already cooler to begin with not being pumped through a superhot turbo.
everyone is so use to thinking about the issues with turbos, especially rotary turbos here that people are going to have to change there way of thinking slighty when working with a supercharger.
This simplifies the install and cost I'm sure. Sure a front mount would work, but this seems like perfectly good compromise between cooling and ease of install.
everyone is so use to thinking about the issues with turbos, especially rotary turbos here that people are going to have to change there way of thinking slighty when working with a supercharger.
This simplifies the install and cost I'm sure. Sure a front mount would work, but this seems like perfectly good compromise between cooling and ease of install.
11-07-2005, 01:45 PM
#32
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This just happened to be the first booth I went to as I walked into SEMA! I have some more pictures of it I can post up once I get off work. I talked with Chris from power about it for awhile. The s/c that's on there now isn't the one they are going to market it with. They are going with their "own" version of a s/c. He really didn't say what that meant. Since they are local to me he did say I could go down for a drive sometime, but I think he did say they are shipping the car to Japan for something sometime soon.
As far as installs go he said their tech who was there did it in 45 mins! Although he had done a few prior to that
Price and schedule was pretty much as said before: $3.5k+ retail, Early 2006
These guys did the dev work on the 350z twin turbo kit on my friends car, they seem to do pretty good work.
As far as installs go he said their tech who was there did it in 45 mins! Although he had done a few prior to that
Price and schedule was pretty much as said before: $3.5k+ retail, Early 2006
These guys did the dev work on the 350z twin turbo kit on my friends car, they seem to do pretty good work.
11-07-2005, 02:35 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by cerveza27
This just happened to be the first booth I went to as I walked into SEMA! I have some more pictures of it I can post up once I get off work. I talked with Chris from power about it for awhile. The s/c that's on there now isn't the one they are going to market it with. They are going with their "own" version of a s/c. He really didn't say what that meant. Since they are local to me he did say I could go down for a drive sometime, but I think he did say they are shipping the car to Japan for something sometime soon.
As far as installs go he said their tech who was there did it in 45 mins! Although he had done a few prior to that
Price and schedule was pretty much as said before: $3.5k+ retail, Early 2006
These guys did the dev work on the 350z twin turbo kit on my friends car, they seem to do pretty good work.
As far as installs go he said their tech who was there did it in 45 mins! Although he had done a few prior to that
Price and schedule was pretty much as said before: $3.5k+ retail, Early 2006
These guys did the dev work on the 350z twin turbo kit on my friends car, they seem to do pretty good work.
Looking forward to there release, strange wonder what they meant saying they were doing their own version? Maybe a twin screw instead? Looks like the beginning of 06 is going to a great year for fi, with this and pettit's s/c coming out. Decisions, decisions.
11-07-2005, 06:57 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by IZoomZoomI
Looks like the beginning of 06 is going to a great year for fi, with this and pettit's s/c coming out. Decisions, decisions.
45 minutes? Now that's bolt-on.
-Mr. Wigggles
11-07-2005, 07:36 PM
#35
Bummed, but bring on OU!
This stock ecu thing has me wondering. Is that stock programming? Or a reflash? 4.5psi with that hp #? Must flow some serious air. Which brings me back to the ecu question.
11-07-2005, 07:43 PM
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One of the things I just thought about and noticed was that they claim 260hp with .45 kg/cm^3, which is about 6.4 lbs of boost, a little more than the 4.5 they said. I have some closeups I will check when I get back home.
11-07-2005, 07:52 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by GeorgeH
Roots blowers get a lot of smack talk over efficiency issues, but the M45 cold side install on my Miata rocked - instant throttle response and a flat torque curve all the way to the (7000 rpm) redline. No intercooler required.
11-07-2005, 07:55 PM
#39
Originally Posted by cerveza27
The way he described it to me it sounded like it was just the stock ECU.
In fact, other than the SC, IC, drive pulley overlay and the IM spacers, the power train was completely stock. I am VERY sceptical that this works well.
Here is one pic of the unit. I have it in higher-res if someone needs it.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 11-07-2005 at 07:58 PM.
11-07-2005, 09:30 PM
#40
Originally Posted by rotarygod
While this doesn't specifically apply to all roots blowers, the Eaton blowers are very easy to "port" to increase the efficiency of. There is a certain way to do it but it isn't hard and is a nice power increase. There is alot to a positive displacement supercharger install that affects power output. You'd be surprised at how easy they are to improve. The Jackson Racing kits are actually done fairly poorly from an efficiency stadnpoint but they work and are reliable. As a general rule with these types of superchargers, you use the largest throttlebody as you can. The inlet and outlets of the blower are also extremely important in shape and area as are the tubes to and from them. While they may still never be the most powerful form of forced induction out there, the Eaton blowers are capable of so much more than most people think they are.
The CS kit comes with a custom intake manifold and mounts the blower right over the intake ports (hence the phrase "cold side"). With this kit I can spin the blower slower than the stock JR kit but make more power. Super short intake runners and just the right intake manifold volume means superb power and throttle response. It's really amazing. The JR kit just sort of gives up in high rpms but the CS kit keeps on pulling. Some guys bump the rev limiter to make even more power. And yes, the big throttle body is a popular upgrade as well (but I never had one).
BR was considering making a blower kit for the RX-8 but backed out. Too bad, as they really know their stuff.
11-07-2005, 11:26 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
The only "math" I am concered about are the A/F ratios which can't possibly be right without some sort of fuel management, especially at 6 PSI of boost or so.
11-08-2005, 01:04 AM
#45
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Bizarre in that 200 hp doesn't conform to crank hp (238) or wheel hp (180 whp average). I'm not sure if that is hp gain at the crank or the wheels. 260 to the wheels is an approximate 80 whp gain on most average RX8's. I would be extremely skeptical of an 80 whp gain from 4.5 psi of boost, especially with that small of an IC. The SC doesn't look like it is particularly large either. If they are claiming a 60 whp gain then that would be closer to 240 whp for most RX8's.
11-08-2005, 10:29 AM
#46
The blower is an Eaton M45, which is small, but probably OK for such low boost.
The flyer claims 6.5 PSI, not 4.5 PSI.
200 HP at the wheels does seem high - most people who dyno at 170 - 180 probably have 200 at the crank. 260 at the wheels is close to what the Greddy turbo will give the average RX-8 and that is with fuel management and about 8 PSI.
The flyer claims 6.5 PSI, not 4.5 PSI.
200 HP at the wheels does seem high - most people who dyno at 170 - 180 probably have 200 at the crank. 260 at the wheels is close to what the Greddy turbo will give the average RX-8 and that is with fuel management and about 8 PSI.
11-08-2005, 10:51 AM
#47
An M45 seems awfully small for a Renesis. Typical outputs for an M45 in the Miata world are 170-180 rwhp for a well designed system, 200 if you go to heroic efforts. I can't imagine using an M45 to produce 260 rwhp. It just doesn't want to flow that much air (at least, at reasonable temperatures). Even on the Miata people are moving to the M62.
Of course, rotaries are different than piston engines, but an M45 just seems too small to me to make this much power. A mid-range torque boost sure, but a force-fed Renesis needs a lot of air at 9,000 rpm. Perhaps they are just spinning the crap out of that poor little M45 and using the intercooler to cool the charge, but based on my experience you'd be better off with a larger blower and no IC, at least at lower boost levels.
Of course, rotaries are different than piston engines, but an M45 just seems too small to me to make this much power. A mid-range torque boost sure, but a force-fed Renesis needs a lot of air at 9,000 rpm. Perhaps they are just spinning the crap out of that poor little M45 and using the intercooler to cool the charge, but based on my experience you'd be better off with a larger blower and no IC, at least at lower boost levels.
11-08-2005, 12:16 PM
#48
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Do we know this car even runs properly? Maybe they just bolted something on for SEMA to show the masses and the real work happens when the car is sent back to Japan with their own blower? Maybe this spec sheet is just a speculation sheet? I give them the same benefit of the doubt as the other 185356433 poeple working on a blower for the 8. If enough people are trying to build it, one of them will work.
11-08-2005, 12:18 PM
#49
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I will make a point that this is the best packaging I have yet to see and hope it works for that reason alone. I thin they mean 260 crank hp and not to the wheels which is fine by me. I am not looking for big power and like the idea of being able to remove the setup just as quickly as I installed it. I am hoping the same can be said for RP too.
11-08-2005, 12:24 PM
#50
<shrug> I could see it working, if it's 260 hp at the crank they are claiming. I just don't think it's an optimal setup for the Renesis. But then my take on this is based on pistion engine FI, not rotary, so I might be off-base.
And, it probably is realtively easy for them to change over to an M62 once they have the packaging is established with the M45. I agree, it does look nice. I hope they produce a well-sorted kit.
And, it probably is realtively easy for them to change over to an M62 once they have the packaging is established with the M45. I agree, it does look nice. I hope they produce a well-sorted kit.