the perfect management
02-20-2007, 12:25 PM
#1
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the perfect management
This managment things got me thinking, ive been working with the E-manage for some time now, 3 years, wether the blue or the ultimate. Ive been digging into the total systems in wich the stock ECU controls and theres alot!!! Id like to get in with tunners in general and discuss [not argue] the best settup for a F/I system for an RX-8 application from compiled knowledge, from the ground up. Its seems from a medical standpoint im layed out for the time being and have nothing more challenging to think about. If any moderators would like to bump this to a new thread be my guest but ill start this here for all to see because its a well travled thread. Im going to start with the stock ECU and all of the controls it has. For the most part a M/T and A/T have most of the same controls. The auto just has less unless you have a 6 port A/T. You cant just change out one ECU from car to car, well you can but im not getting into specifics on that part of the puzzle because I dont want my car stolen. Each one of the systems mentioned are indvidule channles if I miss some let me now and ill edit it in. Im making a list and ill explain later about exact function and some of the specs. Like I say feel free to add in what you feel is needed. O and yeh my spelling sucks LOL.
Primary engine controls
1. leading ignition = 2
2. trailing ignition = 2
3. Fuel injectors = 4 for auto and 6 for M/T
4. shutter valves 2 for auto and 3 for M/T
5. fly by wire throttle body/ throttle position sensor
6.Fuel Pump Speed Control
System sensors
1. airflow/ temp.
2. shuttervalve pressure switch 1 and 2
3. knok sensor
4.o2 sensor
5. wideband o2
6. coolent temp sensor
7. crank sensor
8. Cooling Fan Control Relays
Shuttervalve actuators
1. vaccume accuator
2. " "
3. for the M/T an electronic servo for ports 5 and 6
Readings sent to dash/ important ones atleast
1. RPMs
2.water temp
3.oil pressure sensor
4.engine check light
Primary engine controls
1. leading ignition = 2
2. trailing ignition = 2
3. Fuel injectors = 4 for auto and 6 for M/T
4. shutter valves 2 for auto and 3 for M/T
5. fly by wire throttle body/ throttle position sensor
6.Fuel Pump Speed Control
System sensors
1. airflow/ temp.
2. shuttervalve pressure switch 1 and 2
3. knok sensor
4.o2 sensor
5. wideband o2
6. coolent temp sensor
7. crank sensor
8. Cooling Fan Control Relays
Shuttervalve actuators
1. vaccume accuator
2. " "
3. for the M/T an electronic servo for ports 5 and 6
Readings sent to dash/ important ones atleast
1. RPMs
2.water temp
3.oil pressure sensor
4.engine check light
02-20-2007, 03:19 PM
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This is my plan, it might be workable with any management available. At this time im working with the Emanage ultimate. Im starting from scratch pretty much because the only one ive wired up is the blue Emanage. I have plug and play with the ultimate. My aim is making every signal returning to the ECU read as stock. This will show the ECU all is good and still maintain the stock trim and not trip ANY codes at all. I need someone to help out with incorperating the scematics im about to post with the wiring loom from the Emanage exactly like it comes from greaddy. Im holding them as we speak and waiting to find a scanner. If anyone can post them this will get the ball rolling faster. Factory wiring manual B-1a through B-3 and any other diagrams that are incorperated so we can get a visable total diagram up. Im scared to mess with my harrnes at the moment because iv broken many wires from over handeling and dont want to do more repairs then nessisary.
Last edited by Moon Assad; 02-20-2007 at 03:28 PM.
02-20-2007, 03:44 PM
#4
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it's always good to have AMMO before you go to war against the computer.the worst that can happen is they won't see you at all!get all this stuff together at one time were going crazy trying to find answer's .thanks in advance for your trouble's i'm just tossing the brain around again trying to see who comes up with the missing horse power answer!! 
02-20-2007, 03:46 PM
#5
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
Here is a link to the best wiring diagram I have found yet.
http://smrmicro.com/rx8servicemanual/13Electrical.pdf
http://smrmicro.com/rx8servicemanual/13Electrical.pdf
02-20-2007, 04:17 PM
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lets keep the thread short and to the point, so if you rite for instance im signing off or going home, thats fine but delete it when you can. Im going to be online alot working on getting this together.
Last edited by Moon Assad; 02-20-2007 at 04:30 PM.
02-20-2007, 05:13 PM
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Its been a while since ive worked with resistors, and one way diodes so I need a good electrical engineer or 2 that can work with us. I have some connections in MD but im going to need help with that also. Were is slayer.
02-20-2007, 06:02 PM
#14
What, exactly, is the question?
I don't mean that to sound facetious, but I'm not sure what you are asking.
The EMU manual has a wiring diagram (which is on my site) that shows all of the inputs and outputs and what they do.
The FSM has the same for the car (and is also on my site).
Now you just interpolate the two.
If you want to control the fuel pump or the intake valving, you will need to decide how and why - the EMU has relay control and analog signal control. I wouldn't bother, however since the PCM does a pretty good job with both, boosted or not.
The injectors can be wired a multitude of ways, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. There are 6 discrete injection channels that an be wired piggyback or intercept. There is also a set of sub-injection channels that can directly control injectors.
You must decide ahead of time what "auxiliary" functions you want to control since many of the channels on the EMU are "multi-purpose" and can't do two things at once (unless you are very clever).
The ignition can be wired leading or trailing first, but GReddy indicates that you should do it trailing first. I'm not sure why.
You can also wire the MAF, which beyond changing the apparent load and its subsequent injection/timing values, allows you to persuade the PCM to do things without directly intending them to proactively affect the state of tune.
To keep the PCM happy, it needs to be distracted whenever you intend to operate the motor and its various sub-systems outside the load range that it expects - which is to say in boost.
To distract it, over time GReddy has supplied two different "dongles" with the kit, which have been employed in a few different and creative ways.
Currently, they only supply an O2 dongle, which sends a 22:1 A/F signal to the PCM whenever you are in boost.
This has a double effect in that it allows the EMU to add fuel with impunity and, for reasons that aren't obvious, to keep the LTFT from being affected during the time when that dongle is on. This is quite important for tuning stability.
Ultimately (no pun intended), you have to have a clear goal of what you want/need to control and a good understanding of what the PCM already does on its own on its convoluted path to emissions compliance and satisfactory power output.
I don't mean that to sound facetious, but I'm not sure what you are asking.
The EMU manual has a wiring diagram (which is on my site) that shows all of the inputs and outputs and what they do.
The FSM has the same for the car (and is also on my site).
Now you just interpolate the two.
If you want to control the fuel pump or the intake valving, you will need to decide how and why - the EMU has relay control and analog signal control. I wouldn't bother, however since the PCM does a pretty good job with both, boosted or not.
The injectors can be wired a multitude of ways, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. There are 6 discrete injection channels that an be wired piggyback or intercept. There is also a set of sub-injection channels that can directly control injectors.
You must decide ahead of time what "auxiliary" functions you want to control since many of the channels on the EMU are "multi-purpose" and can't do two things at once (unless you are very clever).
The ignition can be wired leading or trailing first, but GReddy indicates that you should do it trailing first. I'm not sure why.
You can also wire the MAF, which beyond changing the apparent load and its subsequent injection/timing values, allows you to persuade the PCM to do things without directly intending them to proactively affect the state of tune.
To keep the PCM happy, it needs to be distracted whenever you intend to operate the motor and its various sub-systems outside the load range that it expects - which is to say in boost.
To distract it, over time GReddy has supplied two different "dongles" with the kit, which have been employed in a few different and creative ways.
Currently, they only supply an O2 dongle, which sends a 22:1 A/F signal to the PCM whenever you are in boost.
This has a double effect in that it allows the EMU to add fuel with impunity and, for reasons that aren't obvious, to keep the LTFT from being affected during the time when that dongle is on. This is quite important for tuning stability.
Ultimately (no pun intended), you have to have a clear goal of what you want/need to control and a good understanding of what the PCM already does on its own on its convoluted path to emissions compliance and satisfactory power output.
02-20-2007, 06:23 PM
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Thats why I asked you to help. OK, im working on making the ECU sense its completly stock, no tricking it or codes. Im sure its not going to be that difficult but I need help with some info and your expertese. I now your putting out a video on tunning and im not having problems with that aspect. Ive pulled 210 HP from 130 stock on 5 psi with no cat and a stock exaust. Im working on not going fat or lean after a week, no cell, everything pretty factory. Everything working. plug and play. So far its to much fooling the computer for my liking.
02-20-2007, 07:08 PM
#16
Well, you have to "trick" it or you will get a code.
That is just how it is. The PCM is very in-control and doesn't like seeing things that are out of range, no matter how well they work.
If you wire the EMU the way it is indicated in the manual, the PCM will not be seeing anything unusual - as long as you stay out of boost.
After that, it is all smoke and mirrors. That is just the way it is in all systems that retain the OEM PCM.
When the AccessPort comes out, that will all change. But, for now, you have to convince the PCM that nothing unusual is going on.
I'm well into the 300's running nearly a BAR of boost with the EMU in charge.
My A/Fs are all perfect and I never get a CEL. What more do you want than that?
If you are feeling guilty about cheating on your PCM, get an Int-X and enjoy the Christmas tree.
That is just how it is. The PCM is very in-control and doesn't like seeing things that are out of range, no matter how well they work.
If you wire the EMU the way it is indicated in the manual, the PCM will not be seeing anything unusual - as long as you stay out of boost.
After that, it is all smoke and mirrors. That is just the way it is in all systems that retain the OEM PCM.
When the AccessPort comes out, that will all change. But, for now, you have to convince the PCM that nothing unusual is going on.
I'm well into the 300's running nearly a BAR of boost with the EMU in charge.
My A/Fs are all perfect and I never get a CEL. What more do you want than that?
If you are feeling guilty about cheating on your PCM, get an Int-X and enjoy the Christmas tree.
02-20-2007, 07:24 PM
#17
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
MazdaManiac - thanks for the very good explination! Can you explain what the RX8 specific ignition chip that comes with the emanage ultimate upgrade kit does?
02-20-2007, 07:29 PM
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The iterceptor has its problems also. I dont own one at this time and im holding out for a while on spending that much money. Im going to work with what I have and do the best I can with it.
Last edited by Moon Assad; 02-20-2007 at 07:31 PM.
02-20-2007, 07:37 PM
#19
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
When the AccessPort comes out, that will all change. But, for now, you have to convince the PCM that nothing unusual is going on.
02-20-2007, 07:55 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Moon Assad
Dont hold me to it but I think is reads a pulse ahead and works off that.
I haven't 'scoped the output to see what is different, but I suspect it just raises the amplitude of the output signal back up to stock levels - it normally attenuates them a volt or so.
