need help understanding supercharger
12-12-2004, 05:37 PM
#1
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need help understanding supercharger
anyone know a place that gives me detaied descriptions/diagrams of a supercharger? ive got an idea and understand the basic concept, but basically need to find something that shows me how to build one in detail
12-12-2004, 07:05 PM
#2
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm
This explains how they work and difference against turbos
This explains how they work and difference against turbos
12-13-2004, 05:51 PM
#6
Does a dead stop mean the engine is off or on. Doesn't matter anyway, nothing will have boost at a dead stop. If your sitting at a stoplight it wouldn't matter if you had 100 turbo's and 100 superchargers all in line hooked to your engine there would be NO "boost".
Even if you sat and ran the engine to redline there would be no boost.
I know it's hard to imagin but if you had a blower off a top fuel dragster on top of your engine there will be no boost at a dead stop. In fact the dragster itself develops no boost while staged.
Theoretical exception would be if your engine is so weak that it required full output just to turn that blower at idle then you would use some boost. But I doubt you are using your Briggs to turn one of those things.
This is because the engine doesn't have to use much power to do that job. Therefore you can't open the throtle far enough to get air density thick enough to be compressed. Before you got that much air in the engine will have blown up from over reving.
The pressure produced by different styles of SC follow different curves. Add to that the curve of the air pump that is the host engine and predicting the boost curve seen by the intake manifold is difficult.
But in any case the resultent curve will be taken under full load and a wide open t/b. There is no load out of gear.
.
Even if you sat and ran the engine to redline there would be no boost.
I know it's hard to imagin but if you had a blower off a top fuel dragster on top of your engine there will be no boost at a dead stop. In fact the dragster itself develops no boost while staged.
Theoretical exception would be if your engine is so weak that it required full output just to turn that blower at idle then you would use some boost. But I doubt you are using your Briggs to turn one of those things.
This is because the engine doesn't have to use much power to do that job. Therefore you can't open the throtle far enough to get air density thick enough to be compressed. Before you got that much air in the engine will have blown up from over reving.
The pressure produced by different styles of SC follow different curves. Add to that the curve of the air pump that is the host engine and predicting the boost curve seen by the intake manifold is difficult.
But in any case the resultent curve will be taken under full load and a wide open t/b. There is no load out of gear.
.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 12-13-2004 at 06:59 PM.
12-13-2004, 06:12 PM
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http://science.howstuffworks.com/turbine3.htm
Take off the turbine part and hook it up to the driveshaft and have that thing blow into your car and thats my kind of supercharger. Why hasn't anyone made one of these for my car yet? Eh Richard?
Take off the turbine part and hook it up to the driveshaft and have that thing blow into your car and thats my kind of supercharger. Why hasn't anyone made one of these for my car yet? Eh Richard?
12-13-2004, 06:37 PM
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Here is a picture of part of the supercharger I have been working on, there is going to be at least 4 stages with stators in between, this is the first stage here, then I put 3 more stacked on in reversing directions. The 4 stage should be able to produce enough PSI to really make a difference.
The wires are actually for the oil and cooling system. Hopefully soon I can put up pics of all 4 stages assembled together.
The wires are actually for the oil and cooling system. Hopefully soon I can put up pics of all 4 stages assembled together.
12-13-2004, 06:57 PM
#10
I'd love to see your flow triangles on that reversing thing. Maybe you should share the engineering with the guy that started this thread. Might work out if you do the engineering and he builds it. Let me be the first to order one, where do I send the deposit?
12-13-2004, 08:07 PM
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No, we used JB Weld, works like a charm.
The bigger problem was getting it to fit in the motorcycle.
Rotors are designed to just stack them together to make as much HP for the application as you want.
The bigger problem was getting it to fit in the motorcycle.
Rotors are designed to just stack them together to make as much HP for the application as you want.
12-26-2004, 12:16 PM
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Kellybrf
If I am able... here are some articles I found while searching the web on this subject. There is some duplication but I think it provides what you've asked for.
I've got 2 other files that system wouldn't take because they were too large. I will try and whittle them down to more manageable size and load them here.
You should be able to unzip them and read them in MS WORD
Hope this helps...
If I am able... here are some articles I found while searching the web on this subject. There is some duplication but I think it provides what you've asked for.
I've got 2 other files that system wouldn't take because they were too large. I will try and whittle them down to more manageable size and load them here.
You should be able to unzip them and read them in MS WORD
Hope this helps...
12-26-2004, 01:21 PM
#20
Hey John, how come I can't unzip these? Maybe I don't know how.
But I'd really like to know how to build a supercharger all by myself from DIY instructions.
I have a nice 2 car garage with a whole box of tools and a drill press. Will I need anything else?
But I'd really like to know how to build a supercharger all by myself from DIY instructions.
I have a nice 2 car garage with a whole box of tools and a drill press. Will I need anything else?
12-26-2004, 02:56 PM
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Hey Richard,
Only time... only time. I've found that a well placed hammer almost always helps the fit. I've also found that having a four car garage is nice. Gives me room for the cars and the tools to boot.
I don't know why you cann't unzip... this just doesn't sound right (in many ways). I zipped the files with WinRAR. Sorry, no DIY instructions here anyway. In your case, it's a big box with CNC machines and such. I'm sure you can figure something out.
Sorry I missed you during sevenstock... would have been fun to talk engines and such.
For the time being I've got my 92 accord torn apart. Pulled the transmission to replace the 3/4 syncros. Damn kids... how do you damage syncros with regular driving???
By the way, I read your response in the other thread on the Eaton superchargers. I think your response was a little misleading. While the CFM may stay about the same from 5 psi to 10 psi boost, the physical airflow is changing because of the change in boost pressure. By my simple calcs, airflow would change from approx 0.64 to 0.74 lbm/sec with a 5psi to 10 psi change in boost pressure. Course estimates say that 5 psi is worth maybe 288 shp while 10 psi might get you into the 336 shp range (if you don't break something first). I haven't backed out the additional parasitic work though.
Enjoy
Only time... only time. I've found that a well placed hammer almost always helps the fit. I've also found that having a four car garage is nice. Gives me room for the cars and the tools to boot.
I don't know why you cann't unzip... this just doesn't sound right (in many ways). I zipped the files with WinRAR. Sorry, no DIY instructions here anyway. In your case, it's a big box with CNC machines and such. I'm sure you can figure something out.
Sorry I missed you during sevenstock... would have been fun to talk engines and such.
For the time being I've got my 92 accord torn apart. Pulled the transmission to replace the 3/4 syncros. Damn kids... how do you damage syncros with regular driving???
By the way, I read your response in the other thread on the Eaton superchargers. I think your response was a little misleading. While the CFM may stay about the same from 5 psi to 10 psi boost, the physical airflow is changing because of the change in boost pressure. By my simple calcs, airflow would change from approx 0.64 to 0.74 lbm/sec with a 5psi to 10 psi change in boost pressure. Course estimates say that 5 psi is worth maybe 288 shp while 10 psi might get you into the 336 shp range (if you don't break something first). I haven't backed out the additional parasitic work though.
Enjoy
12-26-2004, 03:18 PM
#22
Turbine, I was just giving the poster a bad time and I'm going to write him something nice to explain his problem.
On the Eaton, I was just going by their published chart. I think you must have seen them. 5 to 10 psi gives 5% or less additional flow but uses 50% more power and adds 50% more heat. Am I reading their graphs wrong?
On top of that the pattern shows the same for all the models listed. All I was saying is what they were only in words instead of numbers.
EDIT) I just re read what you said and see your point. I am going to go back to their site and see why I was under that impression. I'll report back in a fewmin.
On the Eaton, I was just going by their published chart. I think you must have seen them. 5 to 10 psi gives 5% or less additional flow but uses 50% more power and adds 50% more heat. Am I reading their graphs wrong?
On top of that the pattern shows the same for all the models listed. All I was saying is what they were only in words instead of numbers.
EDIT) I just re read what you said and see your point. I am going to go back to their site and see why I was under that impression. I'll report back in a fewmin.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 12-26-2004 at 03:21 PM.
12-26-2004, 03:29 PM
#23
No, I think I'm right. Their charts read in "inlet flow". If it were outlet flow it would be a different story. Again if I'm wrong I would like to know why.
I just looked it up on the net, would have gotten the address but forgot. It comes right up on Goggle if you ask for eaton supercharger. It's the first chart under the blower diagram.
Now I will go back again and this time do the math because that is what is coming, right?
As to your syncros, wern't you ever a kid?? I know I broke my fathers '56 chevy 6 pick up gearbox a few times. Then I broke my own '53 Studebaker trans so many times that I wound up adapting a '38-'42 Cad 3 speed side shifter to the Stude bellhousing. That never broke, even after supercharging.
Of course the engine broke first.
It is too bad I didn't go to sevenstock but Hymee was up visiting on one day and I had something else domestic for the other.
I just looked it up on the net, would have gotten the address but forgot. It comes right up on Goggle if you ask for eaton supercharger. It's the first chart under the blower diagram.
Now I will go back again and this time do the math because that is what is coming, right?
As to your syncros, wern't you ever a kid??
I know I broke my fathers '56 chevy 6 pick up gearbox a few times. Then I broke my own '53 Studebaker trans so many times that I wound up adapting a '38-'42 Cad 3 speed side shifter to the Stude bellhousing. That never broke, even after supercharging.Of course the engine broke first.
It is too bad I didn't go to sevenstock but Hymee was up visiting on one day and I had something else domestic for the other.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 12-26-2004 at 04:09 PM.
12-26-2004, 05:46 PM
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Richard,
The graphs provide a volumetric flow rate which just reflects the volume flow rate modified by the volumetric efficiency. So the inlet and exit volume flow is assumed to be equal. However, the physical flow rates are changing as you increase from 5 to 10 psi with the 10 psi boost providing higher physical flow. If this was not the case you would never want to make higher boost because it wouldn't buy you anything.
Now back to the fun stuff,
Yes, I was young once. However, I apparently was not as aggressive as you were. Started with a 63 Fairlane 500 (6 cylinder auto). My parents bought it for me by borrowing 185.00$ from me (paid me back with interest) and letting me drive it. Moved up to a 69 Ford Clubwagon Van (another 6 cylinder, with a 3 spd on the column). Beat the snott out of that van but it just kept coming back for more. Only vehicle I've had that I had the brakes fail on. Also had a return spring on the carb fail (whee talk about speed shifting), the steering gearbox spit out or chewed up most of the ball bearings (by the time we finally got the van home we 2 1/2 turns of free play before the wheels would turn... scary). Yep, I burned up the clutch in that bad boy after about 35k miles. Blew up the muffler playing games with the ignition key (whoops). And my dad tells me shortly after I left he had to replace the rear differential (he's story versus mine).
Yep, my kids have been tame in comparison
The graphs provide a volumetric flow rate which just reflects the volume flow rate modified by the volumetric efficiency. So the inlet and exit volume flow is assumed to be equal. However, the physical flow rates are changing as you increase from 5 to 10 psi with the 10 psi boost providing higher physical flow. If this was not the case you would never want to make higher boost because it wouldn't buy you anything.
Now back to the fun stuff,
Yes, I was young once. However, I apparently was not as aggressive as you were. Started with a 63 Fairlane 500 (6 cylinder auto). My parents bought it for me by borrowing 185.00$ from me (paid me back with interest) and letting me drive it. Moved up to a 69 Ford Clubwagon Van (another 6 cylinder, with a 3 spd on the column). Beat the snott out of that van but it just kept coming back for more. Only vehicle I've had that I had the brakes fail on. Also had a return spring on the carb fail (whee talk about speed shifting), the steering gearbox spit out or chewed up most of the ball bearings (by the time we finally got the van home we 2 1/2 turns of free play before the wheels would turn... scary). Yep, I burned up the clutch in that bad boy after about 35k miles. Blew up the muffler playing games with the ignition key (whoops). And my dad tells me shortly after I left he had to replace the rear differential (he's story versus mine).
Yep, my kids have been tame in comparison
12-26-2004, 06:30 PM
#25
John,
I know we should do this by E mail because your gonna make me look stupid. I'll gamble one more comment, then we go to e mail if you think I'm still wrong.
Looking at the M 90 I find that at peak it inhales 525 CFM when discharging it at 5 psi.
Next I find it inhales 550 CFM when discharging it at 10psi. This is std cond air going into the blower. Nothing more can come out, Right?
Next I find that at the same point of 5psi it has 120 F. And 190F at 10psi.
At those points it has used 28HP and 44HP.
I'm dumb, I'm stupid if not stuborn. Tell me again where the extra air came from.
We can convert to lbs/min and it will still come out the same.
All we can have extra is what is left over from the 70F rise.
I know we should do this by E mail because your gonna make me look stupid. I'll gamble one more comment, then we go to e mail if you think I'm still wrong.
Looking at the M 90 I find that at peak it inhales 525 CFM when discharging it at 5 psi.
Next I find it inhales 550 CFM when discharging it at 10psi. This is std cond air going into the blower. Nothing more can come out, Right?
Next I find that at the same point of 5psi it has 120 F. And 190F at 10psi.
At those points it has used 28HP and 44HP.
I'm dumb, I'm stupid if not stuborn. Tell me again where the extra air came from.
We can convert to lbs/min and it will still come out the same.
All we can have extra is what is left over from the 70F rise.