Need GReddy Profec B Spec-II help
10-04-2009, 02:22 PM
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Need GReddy Profec B Spec-II help
I've had my car running for a while now, and while I'm still waiting on an updated tune from Jeff (hint!) I decided I really need to sort out the boost controller now. Because of all the problems we had on the dyno, including a malfunctioning MAF Jeff didn't make a lot of adjustments to the boost controller and it needs to be straightened out.
I'm getting little to no boost in 1st gear, and boost is coming on late in the rpms for all gears. This isn't a big deal while I'm finishing getting it tuned, but it won't hurt me to get it set properly while the tune is worked on. Any advice with viable settings for the thing would be helpful. I'm not really familiar with making changes to the BC, but I am targetting 10-11 psi. That is what I was running in the upper ranges before, although it wasn't coming on until late in the rpms.
I'm getting little to no boost in 1st gear, and boost is coming on late in the rpms for all gears. This isn't a big deal while I'm finishing getting it tuned, but it won't hurt me to get it set properly while the tune is worked on. Any advice with viable settings for the thing would be helpful. I'm not really familiar with making changes to the BC, but I am targetting 10-11 psi. That is what I was running in the upper ranges before, although it wasn't coming on until late in the rpms.
10-04-2009, 03:51 PM
#2
Look at Kane's thread for setting up the Boost Controller.
Cliff notes: Basically put the start boost about 1psi LESS than the PSI you want to run. This will cause you to peak then taper boost. Use the Set to hold boost, then the Gain to adjust any dips.
Kane's thread goes much more in-depth tho, with pictures too!
Cliff notes: Basically put the start boost about 1psi LESS than the PSI you want to run. This will cause you to peak then taper boost. Use the Set to hold boost, then the Gain to adjust any dips.
Kane's thread goes much more in-depth tho, with pictures too!
10-04-2009, 04:51 PM
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I've read Kane's thread, which is pretty helpful, but I don't know an easy way to see my boost curve. I have a boost gauge, but it doesn't go to a datalogger so unless I get my wife to ride shotgun and pen down values at various RPMS, I don't have an easy way to see the curve. What is the accepted way of monkeying with this?
Also, my boost curve varies hugely between gears, currently showing minimal boost in 1st, but up to 11 lbs in upper gears.
Also, my boost curve varies hugely between gears, currently showing minimal boost in 1st, but up to 11 lbs in upper gears.
10-04-2009, 10:43 PM
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Alright, I did some research on the web including Kane's thread and some other resources to learn about the settings on the Profec B. I felt comfortable enough to make a few changes to the BC before I drove home from my folks place tonight.
A few things I noticed... first of all, the design of the Profec B is really lousy. Setting your SET (boost pressure) by specifying a percentage of maximum flow is really stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if this decision alone is responsible for a lot of blown engines. My SET was configured at 35% from the dyno session with Jeff, so I left it alone initially.
The main thing I was concerned with was boost response, so I changed the SET GAIN (Start Boost). It was set really low (although not 0) which explains my poor boost response. Because I wasn't sure exactly the boost pressure 35% SET would result in with the settings changed I raised it to 44 kPa. I know I have been able to reach 11 psi (76 kPa) with the current settings so this gave me plenty of window to remove the possibility of surge.
The next thing I noticed is how insanely huge a difference changing the SET GAIN makes. My boost was spooling up very fast and instead of hesitating or falling off was moving smoothly up, and wasn't stopping at 10 psi. I didn't push it, so I was shifting before boost rose past 10 psi, but my guess is that 35% is too aggressive for what I want, so I lowered it to 31% SET. My current numbers are:
SET: 31%
SET GAIN (Start Boost): 41 kPa
Target Boost: 69 kPa (just over 10 psi)
WARNING: 76 kPa
LIMITER: 4%
This should give me a bit less max boost (hopefully ~10 psi) with snappier response time, and a 1 psi range for the warning to kick in and drop the boost by 4%. I did not make any changes to the GAIN setting, and forgot to record what Jeff had it set at. I did not notice any falloff of the boost during my runs on the way home, boost was rising steadily. I'll keep an eye on it with the change in SET.
Please let me know if anything in these numbers is crazy or I made a major mistake in setting this up. I just started reading about electronic boost controllers today, and started making minor changes to try and get the car where I want it. If there are any suggestions I'm all ears. I also noticed there is no way to control the variable boost response through the gears with this EBC, which is unfortunate.
A few things I noticed... first of all, the design of the Profec B is really lousy. Setting your SET (boost pressure) by specifying a percentage of maximum flow is really stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if this decision alone is responsible for a lot of blown engines. My SET was configured at 35% from the dyno session with Jeff, so I left it alone initially.
The main thing I was concerned with was boost response, so I changed the SET GAIN (Start Boost). It was set really low (although not 0) which explains my poor boost response. Because I wasn't sure exactly the boost pressure 35% SET would result in with the settings changed I raised it to 44 kPa. I know I have been able to reach 11 psi (76 kPa) with the current settings so this gave me plenty of window to remove the possibility of surge.
The next thing I noticed is how insanely huge a difference changing the SET GAIN makes. My boost was spooling up very fast and instead of hesitating or falling off was moving smoothly up, and wasn't stopping at 10 psi. I didn't push it, so I was shifting before boost rose past 10 psi, but my guess is that 35% is too aggressive for what I want, so I lowered it to 31% SET. My current numbers are:
SET: 31%
SET GAIN (Start Boost): 41 kPa
Target Boost: 69 kPa (just over 10 psi)
WARNING: 76 kPa
LIMITER: 4%
This should give me a bit less max boost (hopefully ~10 psi) with snappier response time, and a 1 psi range for the warning to kick in and drop the boost by 4%. I did not make any changes to the GAIN setting, and forgot to record what Jeff had it set at. I did not notice any falloff of the boost during my runs on the way home, boost was rising steadily. I'll keep an eye on it with the change in SET.
Please let me know if anything in these numbers is crazy or I made a major mistake in setting this up. I just started reading about electronic boost controllers today, and started making minor changes to try and get the car where I want it. If there are any suggestions I'm all ears. I also noticed there is no way to control the variable boost response through the gears with this EBC, which is unfortunate.
10-04-2009, 11:54 PM
#5
I'm not positive but don't you have 3 boost control options?:
-Start Boost
-Set
-Gain
At least that how it is on my GReddy E-01 EBC
I would bump the Start Boost up a little. The longer you can delay signal to the w/g actuator the faster your turbo will spool (generally)
The by far easiest and safest way to do this is to turn your SET and GAIN to 0. Then if you are shooting for 10psi, put your START BOOST to 9psi and watch for a small spike. You could do 8.5psi or so. You will hit 9.5-10.5psi then boost will fall off fast.
Then go back to your SET and start dialing it up. Like Kane says, aim small miss small, so make small changes so you don't overshoot anything. At first move the SET by gains of 10 (eg. 10, 20, 30...) then when you getting closer to holding that 10psi (or whatever boost you want) start making small changes, like multiples of 5, then when you are really close just makes changes 1 or 2 clicks at a time.
Once you have your SET finalized you can now go back and "Fill in the gaps" and adjust the GAIN to make it a steady hold of boost throughout the RPM band.
Hope this helps
-Start Boost
-Set
-Gain
At least that how it is on my GReddy E-01 EBC
I would bump the Start Boost up a little. The longer you can delay signal to the w/g actuator the faster your turbo will spool (generally)
The by far easiest and safest way to do this is to turn your SET and GAIN to 0. Then if you are shooting for 10psi, put your START BOOST to 9psi and watch for a small spike. You could do 8.5psi or so. You will hit 9.5-10.5psi then boost will fall off fast.
Then go back to your SET and start dialing it up. Like Kane says, aim small miss small, so make small changes so you don't overshoot anything. At first move the SET by gains of 10 (eg. 10, 20, 30...) then when you getting closer to holding that 10psi (or whatever boost you want) start making small changes, like multiples of 5, then when you are really close just makes changes 1 or 2 clicks at a time.
Once you have your SET finalized you can now go back and "Fill in the gaps" and adjust the GAIN to make it a steady hold of boost throughout the RPM band.
Hope this helps
10-05-2009, 10:40 AM
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On the Profec B spec 2 the options are named stupid things, its SET and SET GAIN which is Start Boost... I found this thread: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-how...b-spec-ii.html on the Evo forums that helped figure out what was what. I'll bump my start boost up a bit to see how I can increase the response. One thing about the way it is currently set up now, I have no boost spikes that I've seen. Boost rises predictably, so if I'm overshooting my target boost I throttle off. I'll check what my gain settings are at. Thanks for the help guys. 
10-06-2009, 12:58 AM
#8
There are a couple different ways of doing this. Some set the START BOOST first, then the SET, then the GAIN, then make small adjustments. Others do the SET first (leaving START BOOST at a low number), then START BOOST, then GAIN. Usually some small level of fiddling is required afterwards as has been mentioned already. Some people want a small spike, others don't.
Read up on EBC's more, I did go into a really lengthy and technical discussion in Kane's thread about what SET, SET GAIN (start boost), and GAIN actually mean. SET has nothing to do with what boost pressure you want for your car. There are no settings in the Profec Spec II that directly tell the EBC what peak boost you desire. What SET does is indicate how often the boost control solenoid should be cycled on or off. It is no different than the way that fuel injectors are cycled on or off.
Here are some boost control settings from a factory Subaru AP map.
On the bottom is a solenoid duty vs throttle position map. That is the equivalent of both the SET and the START BOOST settings in the Profec--the cells where the duty is very high corresponds to the wastegate being held shut, kind of like START BOOST. On the top there is a boost target map. The boost target map is used for the gain control in the ECU and tells the ECU what pressure it should attempt to achieve using its closed-loop logic. It's kind of like how the PCM knows to target 14.7:1 under emissions controlled operation. There is no direct equivalent to this boost target map in the Profec; it simply does not have that level of complexity and adjustability, but some EBC's like the AVC-R do.
These are other correction maps in the Subaru AP. One is for changes in IAT, another is for different rpms. The two gain settings correspond to the gain setting in the Profec. The Profec makes assumptions about what boost you are trying to achieve using calculus. More adjustable EBC's tell the controller directly. The AEM EMS and other standalones have similar types of maps.
You can see then that Profec Spec II is a simplified/dumbed down version of OEM designs.
Setting your SET (boost pressure) by specifying a percentage of maximum flow is really stupid.
Here are some boost control settings from a factory Subaru AP map.
On the bottom is a solenoid duty vs throttle position map. That is the equivalent of both the SET and the START BOOST settings in the Profec--the cells where the duty is very high corresponds to the wastegate being held shut, kind of like START BOOST. On the top there is a boost target map. The boost target map is used for the gain control in the ECU and tells the ECU what pressure it should attempt to achieve using its closed-loop logic. It's kind of like how the PCM knows to target 14.7:1 under emissions controlled operation. There is no direct equivalent to this boost target map in the Profec; it simply does not have that level of complexity and adjustability, but some EBC's like the AVC-R do.
These are other correction maps in the Subaru AP. One is for changes in IAT, another is for different rpms. The two gain settings correspond to the gain setting in the Profec. The Profec makes assumptions about what boost you are trying to achieve using calculus. More adjustable EBC's tell the controller directly. The AEM EMS and other standalones have similar types of maps.
You can see then that Profec Spec II is a simplified/dumbed down version of OEM designs.
Last edited by arghx7; 10-06-2009 at 01:01 AM.
10-06-2009, 11:35 AM
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Ahhh, that makes a lot more sense now. I would have thought for an aftermarket BC that the Profec B would have options that were a little more "end-user" friendly, but I actually looked through the manual more closely last night and it made a lot more sense. Thanks for all of the pictures. :D I'm still making some adjustments right now, but I'm following the "make small changes" rule.
10-06-2009, 01:43 PM
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Dear god, my car drives amazingly now... I still need some tweaking, but the changes I've made so far are absolutely night and day. It's as big a change from going NA to turbo in the first place. I didn't have a lot to compare my car against originally, but feeling the car now I feel like an idiot. The turbo is fully spooled early, and has a wide band of power. I was overshooting my target boost value so I tweaked the SET and GAIN values a bit today... my GAIN value was cranked really high from the original settings Jeff had used on the dyno, so I turned the GAIN down by 15% and the SET up by 2%. This is giving me about 10 psi with an 11 psi warning. God DAMN the car is fast now. I can't imagine how fast the thing must feel with 14 psi...
10-06-2009, 07:54 PM
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I can see there is really an art to setting these things up... I had perfect response with a very linear boost curve, but it was still going above my target psi value. I'm keeping a close eye on the boost gauge and have the warning/limit set on the EBC so no problems, its just going above the desired pressure. I tried dropping the GAIN value and tweaking the SET a bit more, but it lost the boost response I had with the previous settings. I think my GAIN is still set too high and SET too low. Start Boost seems good, the spoolup is damn near instantaneous with no boost spikes. I'm going to drop the GAIN back to nearly 0 and try and get the SET value where I want it as you guys said originally.
10-06-2009, 09:17 PM
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Did you get your transmission sorted out chicken? I actually have my boost turned down a bit right now as I'm sorting this, aiming for about 10 psi. Once I get used to that, we'll see.
10-07-2009, 01:29 AM
#15
I can see there is really an art to setting these things up... I had perfect response with a very linear boost curve, but it was still going above my target psi value. I'm keeping a close eye on the boost gauge and have the warning/limit set on the EBC so no problems, its just going above the desired pressure. I tried dropping the GAIN value and tweaking the SET a bit more, but it lost the boost response I had with the previous settings. I think my GAIN is still set too high and SET too low. Start Boost seems good, the spoolup is damn near instantaneous with no boost spikes. I'm going to drop the GAIN back to nearly 0 and try and get the SET value where I want it as you guys said originally.
10-08-2009, 02:59 PM
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Alright, I've been fighting with my configuration for about a week now and have continued to have problems. I went out with my wife for about an hour and did continuous 3rd and 4th gear pulls on a slight incline on a long straight open road. I would call out changes to the EBC to her and she would change them. I would drop the speed down and do another WOT pull, and make further adjustments.
I was very happy with the response of the turbo and the boost curve, but regardless of what changes I made I would continue to overshoot my boost target. Today I dropped all of the settings to 0 and began again from scratch with just the START BOOST. I was still having overboosting problems... so I decided to just turn the EBC off entirely. Guess what? I'm still going over my boost target.
What is the MM actuator that comes with the 3071R set up for? I thought it was a 9 PSI actuator that would give ~7 PSI without a BC?? Either it is incorrectly installed, tightened down beyond reason or something funny is going on because without the GReddy Profec I hit nearly 12 PSI before I throttled off with no sign of dropoff.
Any suggestions? I can't really make any modifications to the BC to sort this out if the WG alone is putting me over my boost target. I either need to drop the boost manually, or just say **** it and go with a higher target boost and see where this thing tops out.
I was very happy with the response of the turbo and the boost curve, but regardless of what changes I made I would continue to overshoot my boost target. Today I dropped all of the settings to 0 and began again from scratch with just the START BOOST. I was still having overboosting problems... so I decided to just turn the EBC off entirely. Guess what? I'm still going over my boost target.
What is the MM actuator that comes with the 3071R set up for? I thought it was a 9 PSI actuator that would give ~7 PSI without a BC?? Either it is incorrectly installed, tightened down beyond reason or something funny is going on because without the GReddy Profec I hit nearly 12 PSI before I throttled off with no sign of dropoff.
Any suggestions? I can't really make any modifications to the BC to sort this out if the WG alone is putting me over my boost target. I either need to drop the boost manually, or just say **** it and go with a higher target boost and see where this thing tops out.
10-08-2009, 04:06 PM
#18
Assuming everything was hooked up correctly, you must have a high flowing exhaust that is overwhelming the wastegate. You are running no cat? This is not uncommon on an uncorked rotary. It's hard enough to control boost with external gates. With no boost controller I couldn't consistently hold the 10psi on an HKS 40mm external wastegate dumped to atmosphere. That was on a T04S 60-1, basically the BNR compressor wheel but with a much higher flowing housings and a bigger turbine wheel. My exhaust was full 3" from the turbo back with straight midpipe and 3" RB dual exhaust for the 2nd gen Rx-7. I ended up switching to a better manifold, larger Tial 44mm wastegate, and a 13psi spring so I could run 16psi easily.
Try increasing the tension in the wastegate actuator progressively. First see if you can get it to hold 10psi without a boost controller. Otherwise you will have to choke down the exhaust in some way. Keep your timing maps conservative at this point. At 10 psi I'd do 12-15 degrees leading advance with 15 split, AFR's in the low 11's, with four 9 heat range plugs.
Try increasing the tension in the wastegate actuator progressively. First see if you can get it to hold 10psi without a boost controller. Otherwise you will have to choke down the exhaust in some way. Keep your timing maps conservative at this point. At 10 psi I'd do 12-15 degrees leading advance with 15 split, AFR's in the low 11's, with four 9 heat range plugs.
Last edited by arghx7; 10-08-2009 at 04:15 PM.
10-08-2009, 05:53 PM
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Assuming everything was hooked up correctly, you must have a high flowing exhaust that is overwhelming the wastegate. You are running no cat? This is not uncommon on an uncorked rotary. It's hard enough to control boost with external gates. With no boost controller I couldn't consistently hold the 10psi on an HKS 40mm external wastegate dumped to atmosphere. That was on a T04S 60-1, basically the BNR compressor wheel but with a much higher flowing housings and a bigger turbine wheel. My exhaust was full 3" from the turbo back with straight midpipe and 3" RB dual exhaust for the 2nd gen Rx-7. I ended up switching to a better manifold, larger Tial 44mm wastegate, and a 13psi spring so I could run 16psi easily.
Try increasing the tension in the wastegate actuator progressively. First see if you can get it to hold 10psi without a boost controller. Otherwise you will have to choke down the exhaust in some way. Keep your timing maps conservative at this point. At 10 psi I'd do 12-15 degrees leading advance with 15 split, AFR's in the low 11's, with four 9 heat range plugs.
Try increasing the tension in the wastegate actuator progressively. First see if you can get it to hold 10psi without a boost controller. Otherwise you will have to choke down the exhaust in some way. Keep your timing maps conservative at this point. At 10 psi I'd do 12-15 degrees leading advance with 15 split, AFR's in the low 11's, with four 9 heat range plugs.
With the modifications I had made on the EBC I was getting incredibly fast response from the turbo and having no dropoff of power whatsoever, I was just continuing to get boost pressures in excess of 11 PSI. My targetted boost pressure was 10 PSI/69 kPa and even with the boost controller completely turned off I'm overshooting this easily. With just the wastegate I hit 12 PSI today...
The only thing I can think of is that the wastegate is not correctly opening at all. That would give me a positive feedback loop where the boost will continue to rise forever until the turbo cannot physically flow more or something breaks (which is more likely). As the actuator that Jeff includes with the 3071R is not designed to hit the boost pressures I'm seeing, I'm pretty sure that it is failing to engage unless someone has a better explanation.
My exhaust flow is unrestricted with a catless non-resonated midpipe and a 3'' HKS single outlet behind that, but I don't expect that is a contributing factor to my problem since that would be working against the problem I'm having. Jeff is still working on my tune as I'm running a bit leaner than I like in 1st and 2nd and too rich over 305 g/s especially in the upper gears. The car is drivable with the current tune though, I just cannot go past a certain point in revs at WOT because the boost goes dangerously high.
10-08-2009, 06:47 PM
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Preloaded too much maybe; not opening at all would be my guess. I've taken it up to 12 psi a couple of times now and it doesn't show any sign of leveling off... a 9 psi w/g should not be hitting those numbers regardless of the pre-load without a modification to the actuator I would think.
10-08-2009, 06:48 PM
#22
check to see how much tension there is on the wastegate due to the actuator. there may be too much preload. it would cause overboosting.
i doubt that the wastegate is not opening, rather too much tension and less travel in the arm will reduce the wastegates responsiveness and cause overboosting.
i doubt that the wastegate is not opening, rather too much tension and less travel in the arm will reduce the wastegates responsiveness and cause overboosting.
10-08-2009, 08:45 PM
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Yeah, I'll try and get it jacked up Saturday... its funny because when Jeff was trying to tune the car because of the MAF problems he couldn't get it above 8.5 PSI. He thought the wastegate actuator probably needed to be tightened up, but once I sorted out the MAF pipes far the opposite seems to be true. I'll let you know what I find when I get under there.
10-10-2009, 03:33 PM
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Ugh. I managed to get some time to jack the car up today... and I think I'm done putting this car up on jackstands until I get a better jack. Currently the car is so low to get it up on stands I need to use the mini-garbage-jack that comes with the car, then use another larger jack that won't fit under the car otherwise, then put the jackstands down. Also because of the location of the turbo I needed to raise both sides of the car substantially to get my fat head under there. Then I found that while I could see and even touch the actuator, I couldn't for the life of me adjust the bar without either removing the support strut (which I didn't have time for) or putting it up on an actual lift. There is no play on the actuator bar, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Either the actuator is tightened down too tight, the actuator itself is broken, or the boost controller valve that its plumbed through for vacuum is broken. I have to leave early tomorrow for work in Tampa so I won't get to monkey with this more until I get back, but I think I'm going to swap the vacuum line for the actuator to the VFAD instead of going through the boost controller valve just in case that is causing the problem. If I'm still overboosting then its definitely a problem with the actuator and I will get it up on a lift and see if I can get the rod adjusted. If that doesn't work then the actuator itself is probably bad and I need to bug Jeff for a replacement.
Either the actuator is tightened down too tight, the actuator itself is broken, or the boost controller valve that its plumbed through for vacuum is broken. I have to leave early tomorrow for work in Tampa so I won't get to monkey with this more until I get back, but I think I'm going to swap the vacuum line for the actuator to the VFAD instead of going through the boost controller valve just in case that is causing the problem. If I'm still overboosting then its definitely a problem with the actuator and I will get it up on a lift and see if I can get the rod adjusted. If that doesn't work then the actuator itself is probably bad and I need to bug Jeff for a replacement.