MadDog

Okay, I have a feeling this might turn into quite the discourse. So, pour yourself a nice cup of the grain alcohol of your choice, sit back and relax, while I regale you with tales of 'wildebeasts and angles'. <in honor of Jack Black's opening yesterday...

Most of you know that I have been a proponent of the eManage for use with the GReddy turbo kit for quite some time. Although GReddy did a SHitty job of setting it up for the 8, the eManage has some virtues. Foremost among them is price. At $289 its a hell of a bargain. In the beginning, there were no other EMS options to turn to - at least none that wouldn't require a huge start-up effort. So, some of us started experimenting to find an eManage setup that wouldn't fight so hard with the 8's PCM.

Jeff was first and foremost in this effort. He first identified many of the issues with piggybacking onto the 8's PCM. I did my share of experimenting as well. Together, Jeff and I concieved of the severed injector trick to get around the fuel trim issue. Being a wreckless idiot (there's a reason they call me MadDog!), I was the first person to try it out. I did the logging that let me generate the maps that would be required to run the P2 injectors using the eManage alone. Jeff followed suit and found the same benefits running the severed injectors on his car. All of this experimentation was done at considerable risk to our own cars. Together we demonstrated to the 8 community that the eMangage can be made to work pretty well - up to a point.

So, that brings us up to about 4 months ago. I had been running 10 psi with no real issues using the severed injector setup. The only problem that I had was under large load and high RPM, the PCMs ignition was too advanced. I had some mild pinging that I could never really get rid of with fuel alone. Jeff had been retarding timing for some time using the eManage, but I hadn't. I decided it was time to adjust the timing. At first, I simply adjusted the leading plugs. I didn't even connect the trailing plugs. This worked pretty well, but not well enough. I still got the occasional ping in 5-6th gears under 8+psi and over 6kRPM. Since its a rare condition to be under this kind of load, I probably could have left things alone and been fine. In fact for boost pressures less than that, you probably don't need to adjust the timing at all!

But, I decided that I wanted to go ahead and try to controll all the plugs - not just the leading ones. Again, I found myself having to do some experimentation to figure out how to configure the eManage to have a 4 channel ignition and run the 13bMSP without going to wasted spark mode. Well, this time I wasn't nearly as thorough as I was with the injection issue. I didn't do my homework. I didn't do the data logging that I should have. Nor did I so the benchtop testing that I should have. The results were disasterous.

What I have learned since then, from talking to Greddy, from my own experiences and from the experiences of others is that there is a HUGE issue with lack of isolation between the GReddy RPM extractor dongle and the PCM. In fact, this lack of isolation is the cause of the R flash / eManage incompatibility. Mazda did something in the R flash that apparently changes the grounding plane of the PCM by controlling a transistor differently or something. THe result was that the ignition trigger was pulled down to a single volt or less, and the shape was very distorted. The signal was so poor that the coils simply didn't fire reliably. Hence, people with the R flash get lots of misfires, backfires and general undrivability.

Although I still have the M flash, the problem with the isolation bit me - and hard. When I connected the trailing plugs, there must have been one hellacious loop that was completed. My car misfired, bucked, coughed, jerked and generally drove like crap. I only got one opportunity to take it out, though. Under boost, I think that the ignition signal was so hosed that some plugs were firing out of sequence. I should have taken her back to the corral righ then, but I didn't. The feeling of blowing your engine is one that you know immediately. I wasn't upset, though. It was a risk that I gladly accepted - and one that any of you that have turbo'd 8's should also accept. Although I was pushing the limits and constantly experimenting with my car, that risk is part of the hobby of modding your car. If you aren't at peace with this risk, you're probably trying your best to avoid confronting the reality of it. I have no one to blame but myself for what happened. I'm glad that I could contribute what I did to the knowledge base of this forum. The fun I had was worth the risk - and the eventual costs. BTW: Jeff was a great friend and came over from Phoenix to help with the Renesis replacement. We did in a weekend. It was actually pretty easy! We did it with just a hoist and jack stands.

To be far, I may have had a cracked seal for some time. I had an unfortunate incedent where I overboosted to about 20psi one time!! That was pinging like I hope you never have to hear! It was horrendous! I do believe the Renesis to be fairly resistant to pinging. I had my share of it while experimenting. This was just the final straw.

So, I think I finally found the limits of the eManage. It can run the fuel part of the equation without much difficulty provided you let it drive the P2 injectors independantly of the PCM. Once you start to need to adjust timing, things get hairy. I believe that it can be done, but substantial buffer circuitry would need to be inplace to prevent the interference and ground loops that were my demise. These buffers would also help those with the R flash. In fact, I believe that the new RPM dongle that GReddy has for R flash 8's is supposed to be better isolated. However, it seems that they are getting mixed results with this as well.

As for me, I decided that I wan't willing to continue to probe the limits of the eManage. I wanted the power levels that required ignition retarding, but I wasn't willing to experiment any more. I did a little bit of homework and decided to go with the Interceptor-X. It had the functionality I needed without the overhead of trying to be the first to connect an AEM or a Haltech or some other such EMS. Now, for some folks, the journey is the destination. Figuring out how to get one of these EMSs to work on the 8 would be a hell of a lot of fun, but I wanted to get my 8 back on the road. Scott has already absorbed the cost of all that startup. I didn't feel the need to pioneer another solution.

My Interceptor experience has been very positive. Let me first say that this has probably been the most challenging IntX install Scott has yet had to endure. I live at almost 6000 feet elevation - which presents some challenges in how the injectors are staged and so forth. The difference between me and Scott is almost a full 2psi! So, together we worked through some issues. The IntX is more flexible than most give it credit for. My injectors are now staged differently than most. I also moved my injectors around to take full advantage of this new staging. I have 480cc P1's and 380cc injectors in both the P2 and S slots. Scott did a fantastic job of helping me work through the issues I had with fueling. It was a learning experience for him too! Not everyday you tune cars that are higher than Denver! My favorite line from him was "how do you make power using no air?" haha

[SOAPBOX] i want to emphasize here that no EMS should EVER be installed without a WB02 installed. NO EMS is truely plug and play. If you aren't driving your car straight to the tuner after you install your EMS, regardless of brand, then you should permanently install a WBO2 - or you risk blowing your engine.

Anyhow, I'm quite pleased with the control I now have with the IntX. I had to get used to a new piece of software, but it was well worth the effort to learn this new tuning scheme. Its quite incredible to watch your adjustments take effect in real time. I feel like I'm so much more in control, and I am!! I'm running about 10-11 psi right now and I have yet to hear any pinging at all. I haven't dyno'd yet, but there is certainly MORE power using the IntX than there was at the same boost using the eManage. I'm not sure if its because the intake runners are now held open or because of the improved timing. But, I know its faster!

Here's a little tidbit for you: Last night I took the 8 to the drag strip for the first time EVER. I've never in my life been to a drag strip before. So, I really had no idea what I was doing. My first race was against a stock '06 STi. I had a terrible start! I was spinning all over the place. The STi, with that damn all wheel drive, launched beautifully with a 1.8sec 60ft time! My 60ft was 2.46sec!! The STi easily put 50 feet on me from the start. BUT, I ACTUALLY CAUGHT-UP AND BEAT HIM! haha!

I felt compelled to tell this story for two reasons. First, to alert folks to the dangers of trying to controll timing using the eManage. Until we know more about the isolation required, I'd advise against trying to rig-up the timing control. I believe that Jeff has such a buffer in place, but this problem is more complex to understand and address than the others. It's probably possible to do it, but there seems to be more danger than I feel is reasonable. I believe the safe limit of the eManage is probably about 8psi. After that, you need to controll timing.

Second, I wanted to express support to Scott and his product. The IntX is really a great product. Its been designed to be as close to PnP as you'll ever get. That doesn't meen it doen't need to be tuned, however!! The maps that Scott developed are safe for most, but that's not the point of the IntX. The IntX gives the tuner the ability to totally controll all the parameters. This power, and the fact that Scott has done all the startup for you, is what makes the IntX worth the price. After fighting long and hard for the eManage, I found the limits. It cost me my engine. I'm really, really pleased with the way the IntX is running my engine now. I have it just about dialed-in. My AFRs are just below 12 consistently. Off-boost performance is just as nice. But, all this performance wasn't for free. I've spent considerable time tuning my IntX. The point is that I have complete controll over all the parameters now. That's what gives me the confidence to push up to, and maybe a little past, 10psi - even on those long, 5th and 6th gear pulls. With the added power is added complexity! But, its worth it all the way.

rotarygod

Great review. Finally someone giving Scott the credit he deserve rather than raising the bs flag on him for his work. He gets numbers other haven't because he is thorough and better at it than most people are. He put tons of time and effort into making a great product. He will gladly speak to anyone on the phone to help them out and he'll even travel across the country at no profit just to help his customers. That's great tech support and a fantastic person to support in terms of product and the way he runs his business. The Int-X is better than many give it credit for. It does more than most people think it can and Scott is expanding those capabilities everyday. It's about as painfree as an ecu of that caliber can be. Chances are if someone says the Int can't do something, it probably can but they probably just haven't figured it out yet.

My biggest complaint of the emanage has been lack of proper timing control. The key to rotary tuning lies almost completely in the timing as well as the leading and trailing split. Even controlling timing but not the split isn't terribly useful on a rotary. The trailing does more than many people think it does.

I agree that the emanage can be made to work quite well in some circumstances and that for what it does it is a bargain. It just can't hold it's own to the Int and other full control ecu's though and it never will. You of all people are a great endorsement for each ecu as you have personally used both and done so in more than a just a plug and play fashion. You have helped to make the emanage a useful tool for what it costs and have helped the Greddy turbo owners have a more tunable and reliable ecu. You've also shown them what the limits of it are. Good job for all of your efforts.

zoom44

you meant greddy users with R having misfires backfires and general undrivability, right?

thanks for the post. and all of your efforts

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Just kidding.

You blew your motor? News to me!

Yeah, the ignition thing is tricky. A lot of scope-time.
I'm running the first rotary switch at "8" now. Just playing with it as compared to "4". At this point, the only buffer I'm using is a set of LEDs to the coils (looks neat when the motor is running) and four 1k resistors on the RPM dongle.
I seem to have conquered that demon, but I'm not adverses to a stand-alone at some point. I'll probably roll-my-own, however.

We need to get together again sometime in the next month or so. I'd like you to show me the Int-X software so that I can get a feel for it.
Ring me when you get the time.

adrian-1

Yeah you were, I had you labeled you as the "emangle advocate".


Sorry to hear about your engine. Glad it's running again and equipped with the IntX.
I was one of the first to ditch the emanage for the IntX due to the R-flash mess. I can't describe how easy it was for me to tune my car using the IntX to 12psi. It really is worth every penny.

I've recently sold my turbo/IntX because I plan to sell my car and get something bigger and in the luxury class. 12psi was lots of fun compared to being stock now.

Yes, there's a noticeable difference between the two even at the same boost levels. I believe Scott made 270whp on the dyno with the IntX and stock boost when users with the emanage were only getting 240whp.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The proud father:

Dan 8

Did not realize that Steve Mc Queen was into rotaries

Marlew

Is that Mad Dog Or Mazdamaniac?

MadDog

You suck, Jeff.... But, I"ll give you a call later today. I think it would be worth your while to see the IntX running a Renesis.

We should definitely get together again soon! Maybe Ryan can get out here and we can tear into that blown engine. That would be cool. On the other hand, Phoenix has a plethora of hotties, so maybe I should just drive over there!

BTW everyone, that's the OLD engine. I keep my car that clean!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Sure he was! Didn't you see "Bullitt"?



You suck, Jeff.... [/QUOTE]I think its a good picture!


I think it is more than cool - I think it would be a real opportunity to see what the real net differences are between the two systems and their results.
It will be tought to get Ryan to drive all the way out here, however.



It is nearly impossible to go anywhere in my neighborhood without getting involved in a conversation with some extreme hotness just hanging around.

Sure it is...

MadDog

Jesus Christ! I am laughing my *** off right now!! That is some good work, Jeff! WOO!

do it! DO IT!! Let the hammer drop!!!

Haha!! I litterally cannot stop laughing!!

brillo

Maddog,

sorry to hear about your engine, I'm glad you've got the car back up and running and I hope the interceptor works out for you.

I still give you and Jeff some major props for your work with the emanage, it lead to some interesting discoveries and its possible with Jeff's tenacity that he can work out the issues.

There is no magic solution to EMS because we all live in the real world where money is a factor. Its possible the emanage couldbe made to work for low boost situations reasonably well, and for the cost, that would be quite a coup.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you can tune your car with the interceptor since you really attached the emanage with a vengance.

MadDog

Oh yeah. The IntX is working out just fine and dandy. I've had it running now for a few weeks. I wanted to wait a while before posting just to avoid having to post a retraction. As far as I'm concerned, its the real deal. I'm going to dyno soon, but judging by the way I caught that 06 STi in th 1/4 mile, I'm pretty happy with the power already!

To Jeff's credit, is definitely more tenacious than I. He's running the ignition timing and has been from some time. He had the foresight to rig-up that simple buffer before connecting the RPM dongle to his custom setup. So, it can be made to work. In opinion, though, it was starting to become more of a patchwork of bandaids than an integrated solution. The IntX is an integrated solution. If you want to run <8 psi, you can probably do so with fuel alone and do it with the eManage. But, I think you'll always be on the edge of things. For boost > 8psi, I think you really need to be in complete control. Enter the IntX

OfficerFarva

Major question to Maddog, as well as all other's out there who feel like they can help. I don't wanna thread jack here, but my story is relevant. As alot of u alrdy know, I had the R Flash on my car which caused alot of the emanage probs when I first installed the turbo. Result=blown motor. Then my motor was rebuilt, still however on R flash and using emanage. I noticed Maddog said that the main reason for the PCM and E-mange not liking eachother on this Flash is due to the way the PCM controlled the transistor differently and the ign trigger was down to or below one volt. I had major backfire issues which I felt were normal considering alot of others had the same issue. Then I had trouble starting, so I got the new starter kit. Worked wonderfully for about 3 weeks, and back to the same ol BS. Then, my E-brake light kept comming on while I was driving. I didn't htink much of it, searched the forum and found no useful info. Checked the manual, and it could be 1 of 2 things. Either fluid level is low or there is a serious electrical problem. Could it have been E-manage related since the different flash controlled a transistor differently? Anyway, once the car started it would idle badly, but run well. I would get several flashing CELs, but the only code that was pulled was a too rich code, so I figured the flashing CEls could have been saying that. Replaced my leading plugs to Densos and notice that the leading plug in the rear rotor was significantly darker, hinitng missifres. Then, one day driving down the road w/ the Ebrake light on for sum unknown reason the car turned off. Pulled over, and Egi comp 1 fuse was blown. Replaced it, and it cranked up and drove just like it had been doing before. I didn't know if it was related to that E-brake light or not, but now my suspicions were more, well, uh, suspicious... Then I ordered the IntX. I'm afraid the damage was alrdy done however. Installed it, cranked it up and after about 15 seconds it caught, and then would die at idle. Now, It won't crank at all. Scott was more than helpfull with me, and stayed on the phone as we tried more agressive timing w/ the crank map. Since that did nothing, we feared a blown motor all over again. I didn't sweat it too bad, cus the new motor is warranted by the guys who built it. But, now I'm wondering if my coils and wires are fried, and if replacing them might be a step in the right direction, or if this damage could be far worse. If any1 has any thoughts, it's greatly appreciated. Once again, I don't mean to thread jack, but Ive posted this ? before in the issues and problems, done searches and it's been to no use. Thanks again.

MadDog

Where is the question in all of that? Just get a compression check and be done with it.

OfficerFarva

The compression check will give usless results if it's an electircal problem and won't crank do the the coils and wires. That's the ? in all the rambling. Could the emanage have fried the wires and coils, triggering the E-brake light and blown fuse??

swoope

iTrader: (5)

compression check with tell if you have blown a seal... period...

it does not care about coils elec syst... it is a pressure test.

beers

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The problem OffFarv is dealing with is pretty typical, actually -
Too many variables.
This is why so many people have failures. Even really capable and adept people.

The real trick in tuning any car is avoiding multiple questions. Always go one thing at a time.

Verify your compression.
Verify your coil resitances.
Verify your ignition firing.
Verify your injector function.
Verify your resistances across your harness.
Check every connector for correct voltage and resistance in and out of circuit.
Check your hoses.
Check your vacuum.
Ect.

Do things one at a time and don't change ANYTHIG regardless of your findings until you get to the end of the check list. Just because you aren't getting a proper resitance to ground through an injector wire doesn't mean you have a bad injector and so forth.

One thing that comes to mind is the air pump dongle that Greddy added. I have one too. However, mine is wired differently so my pump does not fire when I switch the engine off. Does yours? I bet not. How long does it run? 10 seconds? 30 seconds? Continuously?
If your pump fries an armature winding, it will present an enormous short to your EGI during cold cranking. Won't throw a CEL, though.

Make a list of all the things there are to check (the manual is really good at this) and check them one at a time.

adrian-1

maddog: so what was your 1/4 mile time? and the scooby's?

MadDog

MM you're mellowing!

I was just too tired and impatient to make this point.

Farva, if your honestly thinking you have a blown seal, then TEST FOR IT!! If it reads normal pressure, MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE!

epitrochoid

welcome to the dark side

you were right about the interceptor being able to tune in an additional 30whp on an untouched wastegate: http://home.cfl.rr.com/epitrochoid/rx8dyno.jpg (blue lines are stock boost, and an untouched int-x map...i live at the same altitude and climate as mazsport, so it's safe enough)

obviously i had already bought the unit when we did this pull, but when I saw these figures I was really sold!

MadDog

Haha Being my first drag race ever, I'm too embarassed to post the time. But, I crossed at 99mph.

Red Devil

Thanks for the write-up. Very informative for those of us that have been reading you and MM's work.

Not to beat it into the ground, but 99mph, so like a 13.8? Just curious, what kind of tires/width and suspension do you have?

MadDog

Yeah, like I said. My launch was horrible...

I'm running 245/40 BFGoodrich KDW2's. Stock suspension. Temps at race time were in the 90's. The raceway is at 5300 feet elevation.

As anther data point, I later raced a modified 06 STi. This guy had a tuned Cobb EMS and a turbo back exhaust. I don't know how much boost he was running with the Cobb. His launch was excellent. I managed to keep that spacing all the way down the track. He didn't put any distance on me after the launch.

misterwilson007

MadDog....are those aftermarket coils on your engine? If so, what type?