ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I did a search for "Ignition upgrade", "Ignition",, "Spark", "HKS Twin power", "MSD" and "AEM Twin fire" with marginal results. The latter yielded a DIY by MM about how to install the system but requiring some circuitry experience. I also found numerous threads which all basically yielded the same conclusion, the RX8's ignition is weak and the coils burn out rather easily. Now to my problem...

I recently went to larger sub injectors(1000cc with a calculated map to compensate for them) and higher boost than before and obviously the car requires some tunning(it's rich) but the problem lies in the ignition not being able to light the mixture. when it gets to above 4000 it starts sputering and if I keep on the throttle it will eventually clean out after 6000-6500 rpms but I can still feel it isnt performing like it should. I started messing with the injector maps thinking it could just be a rich condition and I made two maps a way richer one and a way leaner one and when I put the leaner one on the EMU it got better in the non boost region but the problem under boost/fuel remained although slightly improved. When I loaded the rich one it got so rich the engine started sputerring like a rotor was off or something and it died(at idle). I then had to wait for a few hours and it turned on ok which led me to think that the problem was with the ignition. Rich or not the ignition should light the mixture(albeit with some black smoke out the back of the car). Bottom line is I need an upgrade. I do have the same spark plugs I have used since I got the car(which I will replace now) however my coils are good and arent arcing so that isnt the problem. I will start by getting new spark plugs but I have a few questions:

1.what are the benefits of using trailing on both L and T?
2.If I were to want to replace my coils, are there any stronger(spark wise) units that I could replace them with, not requiring an ignition amp to provide more spark?
3.Will the MSD Dis2 Ignition work on the 8.
4. Any suggestions, perhaps new coils, spark plugs and wires would do the trick?
5.Would this work?: http://www.msdignition.com/sci_6.htm


I woudl like to avoid having to create a circuit of any kind.

Thanks in advance for the input.

Chris....Esmeril

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Anyone?

jeffe19007

The MSD Installation instructions say the unit cannot be used with distributer-less ignitions systems.

You are not alone with this issue. A lot of folks are pursuing solutions. I have not heard of anything yet that sounds like a solid solution.

Fanman

Also try this. I have this on my car and it runs well :

http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1954&rsku=0

Installs very quickly.

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

MM and I spoke about this today with CRH. The problem is (A) the stock coils are physically weak and small, and (B) the actual circut for the coils is physically weak. In order to amp it up you need a new coil circurt (which MM is currently [no pun intended] working on).

No, the MSD ignition will not work, it needs a distrubitor.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input guys. I just ordered four trailing spark plugs from Mazsport to start with and I will go from there. I'll then progress to the wires, to the coils and finally to the circuit(ignition amp) as it becomes necesarry. I'll keep you updated.

Chris

SE3P_HKG

You can also look at Okada Projects' Plasma Direct ignition coils!

http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/home.htm

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

WOW! That looks impressive, sounds like what I was looking for. I wish I new a price for them. They even have a version for the 8, nice. I'll check them out. Thanks a million.

Esmeril

Fanman

Charles was taking a look at them. Vivid carries them, but I heard they are like $600-$700 !

Lasse wankel

Anyone have some dyno results on them?

/Lasse

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I attempted to make a run on the dyno yesterday.....My car sucked, not because of Hp but because I couldnt even get it to do a good run....

Three possible problems(probably all of them):

Coils are bad
need new spark plugs(new ones havent arrived yet)

The abs,dsc and car with wet roads light came on halfway through the run and the car just lost power. It spputters and when it doesnt it doesnt have any power anyways.... horrible....I assume this is the famous limp mode. The last run the car barely wanted to make it past 8000 and it stopped by itself, it just didnt have any power. I'm relaly pist about this. The plugs arrive tomorrow and I will see if I can swap my buddies coils as I am almost sure mine are shot because I cant even get it to drive good in at part throttle with no boost. Hopefully this will remedy the problem and tell me if I need new coils. BTW, the engine is fine, its a fuel/ignition problem. I disconnected the battery all night to try and get it out of limp mode and the ABS and DSC lights went off when I turned it on this morning but the little car with the wet road is still on all the time...WTF? any suggestion on what this light means and how to get it off? Thanks in advance

Esmeril

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Ummm?!?! From what I see in your comment it looks like you never turned the DSC off completely before you started your pull. The slippery or wet roads light should have been on before you started. You need to hold the DSC button down for 8 seconds to turn off the DSC completely (well mostly). At this time you will see both the DSC light and the Slippery Road light. You will need to turn off the ignition to reset the DSC.
Try searching on DSC. The complete instructions and details about the modes can be found.

--edited b/c of my lame *** grammar--

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

When you disconnect the battery, the traction system gets reset and looses its reference point. You will have to turn the wheel from lock to lock to give the system its reference points and then restart the car.

Traction control interfering with dynoing doesn't seem spark related. Maybe on the next run, just turn it off before hand.

I have a HKS twin power waiting to go in as it's cheaper than the coils. The HKS is probably a medium ignition upgrade whereas the the coils seem to be a big step up. With 1000CC secondaries, it sounds like you are looking to make some serious power. Good luck with that.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I did turn the wheel lock to lock and the DSC light stopped flashin and went off but the little car on the wavy road was still on. I might just replace my coils with factory ones for now and wait for an upgrade coil pack that isnt 700bucks. We'll see.

BTW, the spark problem is one I've been having on the street for a while now and isnt dyno related. The dyno problem was simply the fact that the car was powerless even when the spark wasnt giving any problems. It was the combination of both that frustrated me.

p.s.you're right about the serious power ....

Chris

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

You're totally right, I only pressed on the button once...I will have to try it the right way later on...Thanks.

mazsportmantis

you said you are using 1000cc fuel injectors. Why did you decide on that size....what are you running for your primary injectors?

trailing spark plugs are a must for a turbo car. it will keep it cool. leading and trailing should only be used NA.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I have factory primary injectors. I chose 1000cc because I didnt want to remap the entire injector map and would have had to if I changed all the injectors. I also wanted enough fuel for 400whp and the only way to do that changing only two injectors is to go at least 900cc. I actually have a couple friends running 850ccprimaries and 1600ccsecondaries on street cars with no problems(FD's). I also know the injectors arent the problem because I was runing at 7-8psi with this setup and had everything working perfectly. Essentially I have it setup so that if I remove the turbo and zero out the entire (1000cc) injector map the car runs normal like it didnt have the EMU.

It was when I upped the boost that the spark started blowing out possibly because of old(32k) coils and spark plugs, it all went to hell and now I cant even get the car to drive good under vacuum because it keeps misfiring, even when the 1000cc injectors are fully closed(I can see that with the map trace function of the EMU). I spoke to Scott and he suggested some special coils he's working on so I am waiting for them to be released. I already bought new trailing sparkplugs from you guys and will replace my factory coils with OEM ones this weekend so I can drive until the new coils come out, it should at least fix the problem temporarily.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

ground your coils directly back to the battery.
olddragger

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

More importantly (since the main "ground" for the coils are actually the spark plugs - hard to get a better ground than that), power the coils directly from a high current location on the loom instead of where they are now, which draws current through a single 18ga wire that has to travel through the PCM first.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

I understand , but wouldnt a better ground help in dissipating that left over electricity?
I was messing around with the old laser thermometer (not as the best way to measure temps) and the coils had a heat soak in the driveway of 160-180F degrees. Thats engine off--- and off x 5 minutes.
Be good for longitivity to move them?
olddragger

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

"Left over electricity"?

Power goes into the coils through a tiny shared wire.
It exits one of two ways:
A tiny portion that acts as the ground for the ignitor transistor and a huge quantity that leaves through the plug wire.

We aren't concerned with the power though the transistor.

Moving the coils to the edge of the airbox tray might not be a bad idea. Where they are now puts them in the convection path of rotor #1, not to mention the conduction pathway afforded by the bracket being attached to the block in general.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

every coil has left over voltage after the spark has occurred.
after the spark, the left over energy(electricity) in the coil races back and forth between the spark plug and open primary circuit. This racing back and forth occurs until the energy is to weak to find a ground. the better the ground the better and faster this dissipation occurs.
Thats how I understand it -- but I am not an expert.
olddragger

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Electricity only flows in one direction - from negative to positive.

In reality, the electrons flow from the negative side of the battery, through the engine block, across the gap, up the plug wire, through the coil windings (where the high voltage is exchanged for 12v at high current) and up a little 18ga wire through a tortured path to the battery positive.

Any oscillation that might occur in the secondary windings aren't going to hurt anything - at least not to the extent that not having a high current path available in the first place is going to do.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I have gotten about 9-10k miles with the turbo on.

Well I dont know if I should be talking about this and no one should take my word as fact but from what I understood when I spoke to Scott at Mazsport, he is working on a direct replacement coil pack that features stronger coils, both heat resistant and current wise. He mentioned they should be considerably cheaper than buying an HKS Twin Power and that he's just working on the plugs/wires to make them a plug-n-play affair. They are supposed to be available over the next month or so. Then again, I dont work for Mazsport and therefore this is just speculation....

Chris...Esmeril