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How to make your Renesis turbo or SC engine last
Firstly , I am not claiming I know the secret to this - I just thought it worthwhile discussing as I'm getting my engine rebuilt right now and would like to make this one last.
Here are some things that I have done and will do to get the best life I can from my next rebuild : * Esmeril racing Apex seals - supposed to deform rather than break . Believe me you don't want your seals to break . You may get away with just losing a housing if you are lucky but lunching half the motor is quite on the cards . * Dowell pin motor -to prevent cracking of front iron around dowell pin . *Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings *Slight increase of side exhaust port size - to take some flow away from centre siamese port (I melted the divider) . This is just an idea i'm trying . *Conservative tune 11.5afrs or below *Upgrade cooling system - extra radiator *5w40 synthetic oil *stay within efficiency range of turbo - 333whp was nice but my turbo is really only good for 300 under sustained boost without meth injection . criticisms and suggestions welcome . |
Easiest thing to do is run water/alcohol injection. I recently did a pull @ 16psi with a 15.5 AFR! Engine didn't explode.. I know for a fact it would have without the water/alcohol on...
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Live and learn, thx for taking them for the team. ;)
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Originally Posted by Turblown
(Post 3338165)
Easiest thing to do is run water/alcohol injection. I recently did a pull @ 16psi with a 15.5 AFR! Engine didn't explode.. I know for a fact it would have without the water/alcohol on...
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338158)
I'm getting my engine rebuilt right now and would like to make this one last.
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Originally Posted by Jedi54
(Post 3338193)
oh crap Brettus, what happened? :sadwavey:
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338158)
Firstly , I am not claiming I know the secret to this - I just thought it worthwhile discussing as I'm getting my engine rebuilt right now and would like to make this one last.
Here are some things that I have done and will do to get the best life I can from my next rebuild : * Esmeril racing Apex seals - supposed to deform rather than break . Believe me you don't want your seals to break . You may get away with just losing a housing if you are lucky but lunching half the motor is quite on the cards . * Dowell pin motor -to prevent cracking of front iron around dowell pin . *Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings *Slight increase of side exhaust port size - to take some flow away from centre siamese port (I melted the divider) . This is just an idea i'm trying . *Conservative tune 11.5afrs or below *Upgrade cooling system - extra radiator *5w40 synthetic oil *stay within efficiency range of turbo - 333whp was nice but my turbo is really only good for 300 under sustained boost without meth injection . criticisms and suggestions welcome . Anyway upgraded apex seals are fine. Dowel pinning as got pros and cons, like pretty much everything in life but can be considered. Those things have to be done to a new engine though so here's my list for an already installed engine: Improved cooling systems for oil and water circuits. Good intercooler to keep the intake temps low Water meth if you want to run high boost\high power setups premix Adeguate fuel pump and... TUNING! possibly the most important thing when coupled with a rock solid turbo system. Here we're dealing with wearing issues.. if your kit is badly designed there's nothing you can do to prevent problems :) Do you like my list? :) |
Originally Posted by Jedi54
(Post 3338193)
oh crap Brettus, what happened? :sadwavey:
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338158)
*Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings
criticisms and suggestions welcome . (plus depending on your position on different oils, since you no longer have to concern about combustion by-products you are free to use ANY oil you like in the pan, this means some very good ones that many consider taboo for rotaries because of their properties under combustion) |
Originally Posted by paulmasoner
(Post 3338251)
brettus, why reduce OMP output? I have no qualms with the premix but an adapter running 2 stroke through the OMP at INCREASED rates seems a much better idea to me... increased protection, and less combustion deposits... win-win.
(plus depending on your position on different oils, since you no longer have to concern about combustion by-products you are free to use ANY oil you like in the pan, this means some very good ones that many consider taboo for rotaries because of their properties under combustion) I believe that premixing is the best lubrication system - better than running the sohn adapter and better than using sump oil at elevated use rates . My engine is pristine from a lubrication point of view - just munted mechanically . So I know what I'm doing is working . |
Just wondering, what is your reasoning behind premixing heavy being better than the SOHN? I do both but I just think straight 2 stroke injected is better than a decent premix diluted in gas. Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3338268)
Just wondering, what is your reasoning behind premixing heavy being better than the SOHN? I do both but I just think straight 2 stroke injected is better than a decent premix diluted in gas. Thanks in advance.
Premixing is a good thing to do but i wouldn't turn the omp values down anyway, it must be a matter of preference anyway because brettus will probably be using higher premix values than me (i use 200\250gr per tank). |
* Esmeril racing Apex seals - supposed to deform rather than break . Believe me you don't want your seals to break . You may get away with just losing a housing if you are lucky but lunching half the motor is quite on the cards .
* Dowell pin motor -to prevent cracking of front iron around dowell pin . *Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings *Slight increase of side exhaust port size - to take some flow away from centre siamese port (I melted the divider) . This is just an idea i'm trying . *Conservative tune 11.5afrs or below *Upgrade cooling system - extra radiator *5w40 synthetic oil *stay within efficiency range of turbo - 333whp was nice but my turbo is really only good for 300 under sustained boost without meth injection . Why reduce OMP? should we not increase it? (I see Paul has already questioned it) I agree on the exhaust port size. Yep a must on the upgrade of the cooling system - a second rad. would be nice. I tried it earlier but it did not help. Am trying a system from Pettit now but hell I have to wait for the air temp to get up there before I can comment. In the summer I use 10w50 in the desert heat and I know it helps on the over heating. Can't prove improved lubrication but when Ray broke open my engine it looked good. :evil_laug stay away from the turbo:yelrotflm:D: (I am just joking here - could not pass it up) Water/ alcohol injection |
Are you going to stick to a stock water pump or a Mazmart/other?
Are you planning any changes/improvements from stock on the flow paths through the engine bay (enhanced air mass flow through the cooling systems)? |
Originally Posted by Phil's 8
(Post 3338285)
Why reduce OMP? should we not increase it? (I see Paul has already questioned it) But I am running premix so theoretically I don't even need the omp at all . I just have it there as a backup - incase I run out of premix . Why use 2x as much oil as you need ? High load values I run at 1/2 whereas low load is more like 3/4 of stock settings so if I run out of premix I can cruise around and not be concerned - I just dont go WOT. Also : put your hand up if you actually have worn out an engine running FI (rather than mechanically destroyed it ) ..........................Anyone ? I contend the lubrication thing is not even an issue - breaking apex seals .........................IS
Originally Posted by Phil's 8
(Post 3338285)
*I agree on the exhaust port size.
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As has been mentioned I think one of the key things is water/meth injection. With the high compression of the Renesis it really does help as a safety net for when things inevitably go wrong. Upgraded apex seals, dowels, and porting are all on my list for my new motor but premix, alky injection, and a solid tune are the main things for longevity as I understand it.
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Missing critical rebuild item = fail
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Originally Posted by blackenedwings
(Post 3338424)
As has been mentioned I think one of the key things is water/meth injection. With the high compression of the Renesis it really does help as a safety net for when things inevitably go wrong. Upgraded apex seals, dowels, and porting are all on my list for my new motor but premix, alky injection, and a solid tune are the main things for longevity as I understand it.
I'm thinking a pressure switch set at around 4-5psi would be good ? |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338349)
I contend the lubrication thing is not even an issue - breaking apex seals .........................IS I contend that your approach is fine with the goal of simply not popping a motor. But for the stupidly small comparative cost, I would throw 2stroke and premix at it in much larger volume than you are referring to. I would also seriously be looking to address oil pressure and e-shaft pellets. You dont want your bearings to look like those pictured in the referenced threads after 60K do you? as far as I see things, the power range that almost everyone here is currently playing in, or even aiming for... breaking seals is not an issue. The failures of this nature I have seen all seem to come from failure of another component. How many people have popped seals that didnt involve poor tuning, catastrophic misfires, overheating, or other component failure? There is no history of people popping motors simply from pushing too much air through them. Now I do NOT think your ideas and approach are bad. But i think the things you are passing up are things that should be addressed even at stock power levels. The way I see it(and this is one of the MANY reasons I sold the FI pile 'o stuff I had, I wasnt ready), 1st step is to bring the drivetrain to where it needs to be in the first place, and allowing for anything that may change with added power levels. THEN play with power, and even more so - before adding safety nets to the drawing board, ensure you have done everything in your power to eliminate potential problems, then finally look at safety nets. anyway, a recap of my thoughts after i've looked at it a while: * Esmeril racing Apex seals - supposed to deform rather than break . Believe me you don't want your seals to break . You may get away with just losing a housing if you are lucky but lunching half the motor is quite on the cards . * Dowell pin motor -to prevent cracking of front iron around dowell pin . not disagreeing(i would do the same) but who has cracked the iron that did not involve serious ignition hiccups? *Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings again premix = :) but i would also use the adapter and pump 2stroke to it - in higher than OEM volume. *Slight increase of side exhaust port size - to take some flow away from centre siamese port (I melted the divider) . This is just an idea i'm trying . why were the EGT's that high? stay in the efficiency range of your compressor, check your timing, dont use water/meth as a bandaid - only as a safety net *Conservative tune 11.5afrs or below I am certainly not the tuning guru, but I'd see 12 as perfectly acceptable. *Upgrade cooling system - extra radiator I'm not familiar with your local conditions or temp history right off hand, but remember than the motor will perform its best within a certain temp range. dont cool it too much and try to avoid anything that will delay warmup periods. In a perfect world you could have the extra radiator valved off and opened up under desired temp conditions... hint hint *5w40 synthetic oil *stay within efficiency range of turbo - 333whp was nice but my turbo is really only good for 300 under sustained boost without meth injection . e-shaft pellet address the horrible OEM side seal clearance **oh and dont forget the part oil plays in cooling. but be wary what you do, the oil takes so damn long to reach temp already.... |
Originally Posted by paulmasoner
(Post 3338472)
I contend that your approach is fine with the goal of simply not popping a motor. But for the stupidly small comparative cost, I would throw 2stroke and premix at it in much larger volume than you are referring to.
I know a few old school rotary racers - the typical premix ratio they run is 150:1 and they use any old cheap premix (and laugh at me for useing expensive stuff). Useing 200:1 premix + OMP at 1/2 factory is more oil than that - I think it is plenty.
Originally Posted by paulmasoner
(Post 3338472)
I would also seriously be looking to address oil pressure and e-shaft pellets. You dont want your bearings to look like those pictured in the referenced threads after 60K do you?
Don't forget us FI guys have reduced redlines - I really don't see oil pressure as an issue
Originally Posted by paulmasoner
(Post 3338472)
as far as I see things, the power range that almost everyone here is currently playing in, or even aiming for... breaking seals is not an issue. The failures of this nature I have seen all seem to come from failure of another component. How many people have popped seals that didnt involve poor tuning, catastrophic misfires, overheating, or other component failure? There is no history of people popping motors simply from pushing too much air through them. Now I do NOT think your ideas and approach are bad. But i think the things you are passing up are things that should be addressed even at stock power levels.
.. I'm not saying you aren't right to say that everything needs to be spot on but - the Renesis is a WEAK motor under detonation and everyone who goes FI needs to realise that it will and does happen to the best of us . Just ask all the experienced FI people on here how many of them have NOT blown a motor if you think supporting mods will always save you .... |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338520)
I'm not trying to save money on oil - more to avoid going overboard and carboning up the engine .
I know a few old school rotary racers - the typical premix ratio they run is 150:1 and they use any old cheap premix (and laugh at me for useing expensive stuff). Useing 200:1 premix + OMP at 1/2 factory is more oil than that - I think it is plenty.
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338520)
Still on same bearings I started with and they are still serviceable (after 78000 miles )
Don't forget us FI guys have reduced redlines - I really don't see oil pressure as an issue
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338520)
Breaking seals IS the issue - all those things you listed do happen and will happen even if your systems are up to scratch - some people get lucky , some don't . The Renesis is a WEAK motor under detonation and everyone who goes FI needs to realise this .
but...
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338520)
Just ask all the experienced FI people on here how many of them have NOT blown a motor if you think supporting mods will always save you ....
supporting mods won't save you, they are usually a point of failure from what i've seen. the more you add to a system, the more potential failure points it has. my approach is kinda like this... airbags: they dont solve a problem, they are a bandaid. the problem is the driver, the public road maintenance status, the pedestrian, the vehicle maintenance(think tires) etc etc... but since fixing those things is out of the realm of feasibility(for the system as a whole), airbags are a necessary bandaid to save lives. I simply want people(moreso than you in this case) to ensure the are addressing the problem IF possible rather than adding a bandaid to make the problem, well... less problematic this is just as much about the approach and thouhgt process as it is directly at you. except for the oil pressure/e-shaft bit and 2stroke. |
hmmm - i'm not sure what approach you are recommending after all that ?
what do you consider a band aid ? |
So what is your plan? You want to build a motor that you can detonate and will survive? Or a motor/system that has the least chance of detonating. Detonation is generally considered an engine killer for a reason. Even if you use a seal that'll bend instead of break, it's going to severely stress/warp the groove, lose compression over time, and fail.
Oh, and I run right up to 9k rpms so I don't think all FI guys are lowering their redlines. |
Originally Posted by paulmasoner
(Post 3338542)
if you're trying to avoid carbon, why inject 4stroke at all then? stick straight to premix, or premix and keep the OMP as a safety net - on 2stroke. ash content, deposits. which has more?
. However my setup would be second to that - OMP on 4 stroke but at reduced volume and only operating as a back-up system . See my logic now ? |
Originally Posted by maxxdamigz
(Post 3338568)
So what is your plan? You want to build a motor that you can detonate and will survive? Or a motor/system that has the least chance of detonating.
.
Originally Posted by maxxdamigz
(Post 3338568)
Oh, and I run right up to 9k rpms so I don't think all FI guys are lowering their redlines.
There is practically nothing to gain in the way of acceleration by reving much past 8000 anyway ....
Originally Posted by maxxdamigz
(Post 3338568)
Even if you use a seal that'll bend instead of break, it's going to severely stress/warp the groove, lose compression over time, and fail.
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Any oil galley work?
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Lol, why ... Just because it sounds good?
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All good points. I can see where Brettus is coming from but it boils down to time and money. Personally I would like to see someone slap in a built 09 motor as a starting point for FI. Yes I know the swap would be difficult but it will be done eventually. In my previous life many doubted a K series would be an easy swap in 92-95 EG hatch and now they are a dime a dozen.
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/\ Do you think the 09 motor is seriously better for FI ? Why ?
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You don't need an '09, those changes address issues not relative to unmodified OE constraints, not wholesale changes like this
there are more important things to address if you know what they are ... |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338665)
/\ Do you think the 09 motor is seriously better for FI ? Why ?
Only a better starting point due to the third oil injector, OMP system, and increased OP. But the SOHN won't work............ Not a huge advantage but the OMP system is better. |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3338676)
Only a better starting point due to the third oil injector, OMP system, and increased OP. But the SOHN won't work............ Not a huge advantage but the OMP system is better.
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 3338688)
And you know this how? Because you read about it on this forum? :rolleyes:
. Yes, as opposed to what else? Is that your way of insinuating that I don't have any on hands experience building motors? We all know you have tons of experience replacing motors Team and that you are an autox god, :lol: but do you care to actually contribute or state your opinion? Your pretty good at posting random smart ass remarks. It seems you don't like a lot of what you read on this site so why bother posting if it just negative? But it's okay, it is entertaining :D: |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3338676)
Only a better starting point due to the third oil injector, OMP system, and increased OP. But the SOHN won't work............ Not a huge advantage but the OMP system is better.
Oil pressure - maybe could help SC engine with overtight belts but I have not heard of turbo engines with bearing failure yet so ...... |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338780)
Yes OMP is better - but premixing is even betterer .
Oil pressure - maybe could help SC engine with overtight belts but I have not heard of turbo engines with bearing failure yet so ...... That is true about the SC belt from what I have seen. Have there been any rebuild pics of turboed motors (searching now)? What do you use to tune Brettus? I am using the SOHN and premixing the fuel. |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3338799)
That is true about the SC belt from what I have seen. Have there been any rebuild pics of turboed motors (searching now)? What do you use to tune Brettus? I am using the SOHN and premixing the fuel.
I tune with Protuner |
hmmmm - how is this for irony
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=33 and mysql's reply https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=34 + this
Originally Posted by mysql
(Post 2508471)
What we found was very little wear on anything. Nothing was wrong with the internals besides the crack on the front iron. I can easily see this same engine going well over 100k miles with FI without having issues. I base this on just what Charles has said and what I saw, hopefully when Charles gets a chance, he can chime in with his thoughts on it. . |
The same things cause detonation on a FI Renesis that cause detonation with any other engine; tuning and failed subsystems chief among them. If the tune is spot on and all the subsystems are working great, you aren't going to have problems, but some of the "bandaids" are useful because they help out when things aren't great. Methanol injection is a great "bandaid" in that regard. Building a tougher motor helps a bit too, and proper maintenance, but its not going to be foolproof period.
Besides upgrading the elements of the motor we've discussed, premixing, and alky injection I don't think there is a magical thing that solves all the worries about grenading a boosted rotary. Look at how many 13B-REWs got/get destroyed. |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3338826)
hmmmm - how is this for irony
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=33 and mysql's reply https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=34 + this
Originally Posted by blackenedwings
(Post 3338827)
The same things cause detonation on a FI Renesis that cause detonation with any other engine; tuning and failed subsystems chief among them. If the tune is spot on and all the subsystems are working great, you aren't going to have problems, but some of the "bandaids" are useful because they help out when things aren't great. Methanol injection is a great "bandaid" in that regard. Building a tougher motor helps a bit too, and proper maintenance, but its not going to be foolproof period.
Besides upgrading the elements of the motor we've discussed, premixing, and alky injection I don't think there is a magical thing that solves all the worries about grenading a boosted rotary. Look at how many 13B-REWs got/get destroyed. Very true and with time more solutions will come. |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3338844)
I remember that rebuild, I will have to re associate myself with it. Did he ditch the turbo after the rebuild?
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the advantage of premix done right, is the oil is everywhere.. not just where the nozzles direct / drip it..
oil is good. :) btw, bret last track weekend. made all sessions. ran the car down to 1/3 tank. no fuel pump issues! it was a good weekend. beers :beer: |
^ don't you ever sleep ;)
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Originally Posted by dannobre
(Post 3339131)
^ don't you ever sleep ;)
i was away from here for over a month.. yes i do sleep. but not like the rest of you! :) and i have a turbo! ;) beers :beer: |
Mazda doesn't intend for anyone to pre-mix
I don't know any top Renesis engine builders jumping to 09 or even recommending which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will run $6000 -$7000 USD and short of you having a tuning or supporting part malfunction will last a long time the key is figuring out who's real and who wants you to think they're real. IMO there are only two, maybe three, "real" Renesis race engine experts in the USA. Since you're down under the choices are likely slimmer still |
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 3339235)
.....which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will .....
.
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 3339235)
the key is figuring out who's real and who wants you to think they're real. IMO there are only two, maybe three, "real" Renesis race engine experts in the USA. Since you're down under the choices are likely slimmer still
Rick Engman, Jim Mederer and Iannetti and Then Team.:worship: Amemiya-san I think would be the closest to Down-Under. Hell what do I know anyway.. |
If I were you I would:
1. Upgrade water pump and thermostat to mazmart water pump and cooler thermostat 2. Radiator if you live in hot climate 3. Use thicker oil like 20W50. I use Amsoil 20W50 syn in mine. 4. Get meth injection. 5. Tune engine AFR anywhere from 10.5 to 11.5 with meth. Keep eyes on level of meth in bottle before you get into boost. A good tune is probably most important. 6. Upgrade to better apex seal. I have Esmeril apex seals on mine. 7 Larger oil pan 8. Don't drive car hard until it is up to operating temp 9. Don't drive car hard if it too warm outside 10. Change oil on a regular basic. I change mine every 2500 miles. 11. If you track your car, it probably normal that the engine will worn out more than daily driving or weekend driving car. There is no way around it. 12. Keep rpm lower t han 8000 rpm. With turbo, I think there is no need to rev that high which will help with not over heating the engine. 13. Keep car maintain well at all time 14. Don't use no brand name gas. Use the best quality gas you can get. 15. Use good quality coolant 16. Give car enough time to cool before shutting it down 17. Choose turbo size that sufficient for the engine for longer lasting turbo 18. Keep eyes on gauges. If something look funny or not right, stay off boost and get it fix immediately 19. Use good quailty premix and sufficient amount also. If you have 09 I don't know you need premix. 20. Replace spark plugs on a regular basis and use the right plugs 21. Lastly, think before you floor that gas pedal. It just my thoughts. So far my car has been running good but I only have 5000 miles or so on the turbo. So only time will tell. |
Originally Posted by EricMeyer
(Post 3335485)
News flash readers digest version:
I spoke with Daryl Drummond at length today. Daryl has been involved in Mazda engines for Mazda in various racing applications over the past 30 years. He specializes in race engines, has more Mazda racing championships as an engine builder then probably anyone else in the states (or close to it). Basically he is a very, very, very credible source. He continues to build and support commerical and professional rotary appications, builds several road racing motors, specializes in custom intakes using fuel injection and validates everyone on his engine dyno. Our Renesis engine dyno chart to follow in another post for reference. Neat stuff. I digress. Daryl did some Mazda supported race team R&D many years ago when his rotary powered off-road motors would see one race before needing rebuilds. 9,200 rpm (and we are NOT talking Renesis here) would cause excessive heat and this would lead to bearing failure. Heat led to bearing failure. Bearing failure led to engine failure. Engine failure = DNF. DNF not good. So an investigation was performed and it was determined that the entire oiling system was restrictive particularly the path from the rear to the front of the motor. The stock pumps are capable of 8 gal/min flow yet the internal restrictions of the oil path and gallies do not allow proper lubrication and cooling. Cooling was the issue as it melted part of the bearing. This was resolved by enlarging the oil passages (an aftermarket mod he does to his race engines and I beleive others do but can not confirm this) and stepping up the oil pressure reg (mentioned several times in this thread). He offered that many years ago he measured 90 psi at the rear @ 8,500 rpm and 60 at front same rpm with the stock 13 oil pump. Fast forward. The Mazda dry sump has a 12 gal/min flow rate. Modifications to the pump allow for 15 gal flow combined with opening up the galleys has solved this issue. He does this on our Renny race engines and those built for Pro Formula Mazda (spec engine with Motec engine mngt.). Note: This series is running the new 09 motors and currently a hard cut of 8,700 rpm I beleive. 04-08 motors had a 8,500 rpm limiter (so i tell everyone once again---don't drive your dumb engines at 9,000 thinking there is good power there----there is not). Summary: It appears there has been a long history of oil flow issues with the 13b. Heat reduction, increased flow and higher psi all help to solve this. Daryl offers this oil modification service along with an extensive balancing of components. His other offerings are beyond a typical street car owner and/or above the budget most of this forum wants to spend on their engines. One other thing: Heat can be generated in the combustion chamber by inadequate tuning. Combine this with high rpms and less than adequate cooling and the probability of bearing failure is increased. It would be interesting to see what conservative tuning, improved water cooling, improved oil cooling and increased oil pressures would do to an engine subjected to many, many hours and miles of operation. I guess it all comes back to "how much do I want to invest in my engine to avoid potential bearing failures"? Happy rotoring Renesis Engine dyno (flywheel hp): http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorspor...&bgcolor=black Mazda Dry sump: http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorspor...&bgcolor=black daryl@drummondengines.com |
The '09 motors are definitely better than the previous motors, but the primary difference is the OMP system which those of us premixing are using in addition, not relying on entirely. Mazda does not intend for people to premix because your average consumer would A) Fuck it up entirely (how much of this shit am I putting in again?) and B) Refuse to buy a car requiring them to put anything other than gas in it. It doesn't mean that premix is somehow bad, or "out of spec" for rotaries. My car started running SO much better when I started premixing Idemitsu 2-stroke and I also have my OMP on significantly higher than normal (whatever Jeff's setup is). Plenty of lubrication and the car is happy. I also have methanol injection, upgraded ignition, and an open exhaust path. For a non-modified Renesis I don't see how my setup could be improved for reliability. The new motor will have all the goodies as well, but nothing makes the motor foolproof. While I agree with Team that there are only a handful of people who are real experts, none of the things we are discussing in this thread is rocket science or requires an expert opinion. Most of the measures we are discussing are old news to rotary owners and unless you have a magic bullet we don't know about (or the mentioned experts do and they aren't sharing) then I don't see the point in blasting people in this thread.
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Originally Posted by maxxdamigz
(Post 3338568)
.....Even if you use a seal that'll bend instead of break, it's going to severely stress/warp the groove, lose compression over time, and fail.
Its not just a seal that will bend instead of break. Two separate things are being confused here. First thing: Our seals will not bend under detonation, they will simply not break because they are stronger. They will take it for X amount of time and under lots of boost and you will have a chance to take your foot off the throttle as opposed to the OEM ones which just go at the slightest sign on detonation...even if you react and lift your right foot. Second: Separately, if your engine is leaned out to excessive levels, with or without detonation, to the point where your EGT's are way to high, the seals will "Sag" or "bend" in the middle as opposed to breaking or getting lodged in the groove which is what happens to OEM ones. This bending happens towards the center of the rotor, as a result of the apex seal spring pressure points, not side to side so it will not affect the groove, and the engine will not suffer damage. It will also not loose compression over time, it will loose compression immediately and you will notice, so you will not be driving around with warped apex seals, you will be able to feel that something is not right. All you will have to do is rebuild the engine with new apex seals but your rotor grooves, housings etc will be fine. And again, this is at extreme boost pressures(20psi+) and lean conditions, I have yet to see one seal bend/sag or fail...and believe me, I have detonated at way more than 20psi and not just once ;). I have also had the worst thing that could happen to an FI guy happen, partial fuel loss...which is worse than just loosing fuel in general because you still have some going in and it leans the engine out horribly.. One of my first pair of bosch fuel pumps pussed out on me (that's how I found out they were knock offs and later started buying them direct from bosch) while I was at 22psi with the PT71mm turbo and nothing broke...I saw 15.7 on the AFR meter and the engine sputtered before I took my foot off the gas...nothing was damaged. Hope this clears up any questions. Chris |
My post was not in reference to your seals but in seal selection in general and where one places the emphasis. One could put magic seals in the car that never bend, break, sag, or wear and detonating the engine is still going to eventually cause problems. You've just moved the weakest link to somewhere else. Surely increasing the strength of the current weakest link is a plus but avoiding detonation in the first place would certainly be superior.
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