Esmeril Racing Apex Seals on an FI'd renesis - post your experience good or bad
09-28-2010, 03:41 PM
#51
Fuel was fine at 11.5 afr (was logging when it happened) and exhaust gas temp post turbo was 1725F which is a lot lower than iv'e seen in the past .
I'm 99% sure it was the plugs or more specifically the plug/coil combination I was running .. They were 0.2mm larger gap than the NGKs
I'm 99% sure it was the plugs or more specifically the plug/coil combination I was running .. They were 0.2mm larger gap than the NGKs
09-28-2010, 03:47 PM
#52
SiNoEsRotorNoEsMotor
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It kills me how people want to question anything and everything about these seals but they will buy apex seals from any other brand blindly and wont question ****...
09-28-2010, 03:51 PM
#53
Many people have spent many, many times over your budget to investigate the apex seal issues. They, in turn have been eclipsed by Mazda's budget for the same over the last 40 years.
I have a fair understanding of metallurgy (a lawsuit over a snapped tie-rod end that had been heated during a wheel alignment will do that for you). Feel free to explain why your claims of strength/resilience are not bracketed strongly by the word "may".
And who might these "people" be?
09-28-2010, 03:55 PM
#54
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Fuel was fine at 11.5 afr (was logging when it happened) and exhaust gas temp post turbo was 1725F which is a lot lower than iv'e seen in the past .
I'm 99% sure it was the plugs or more specifically the plug/coil combination I was running .. They were 0.2mm larger gap than the NGKs
I'm 99% sure it was the plugs or more specifically the plug/coil combination I was running .. They were 0.2mm larger gap than the NGKs
09-28-2010, 04:20 PM
#58
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[QUOTE MazdaManiac]And who might these "people" be?[/QUOTE]
The list is toooo long, but i can tell you im talking about the ones who dont even have an interest in using these seals but wont think twice about bashing them, so simply put, if the shoe fits wear it!
The list is toooo long, but i can tell you im talking about the ones who dont even have an interest in using these seals but wont think twice about bashing them, so simply put, if the shoe fits wear it!
09-28-2010, 04:29 PM
#59
I've done the exact same thing on stock seals, many, many times.
And that metallurgy would be what, exactly?
Many people have spent many, many times over your budget to investigate the apex seal issues. They, in turn have been eclipsed by Mazda's budget for the same over the last 40 years.
I have a fair understanding of metallurgy (a lawsuit over a snapped tie-rod end that had been heated during a wheel alignment will do that for you). Feel free to explain why your claims of strength/resilience are not bracketed strongly by the word "may".
And who might these "people" be?
And that metallurgy would be what, exactly?
Many people have spent many, many times over your budget to investigate the apex seal issues. They, in turn have been eclipsed by Mazda's budget for the same over the last 40 years.
I have a fair understanding of metallurgy (a lawsuit over a snapped tie-rod end that had been heated during a wheel alignment will do that for you). Feel free to explain why your claims of strength/resilience are not bracketed strongly by the word "may".
And who might these "people" be?
First, my knowledge of metallurgy is not due to a lawsuit, it is due to extensive studies during my Mechanical Engineering career which has involved, college, structural design of components for cars and machinery and more important, machined medical devices.
Second, Mazda's goal is to sell cars, that is the goal of any car company, not to make the best car, but to make the car that sells the most. Their research and improvements are based on the perception the cars get from the potential buyers and that alone. If the car is perceived as being good/fun/reliable/efficient or any number of criteria for that particular market, it will sell well. Because of that, Mazda does not want to develop a reputation of lack of reliability, they do the work that is necessary to make the cars reliable enough that the perception of them remains positive. However, they always keep sales and costs of manufacturing as a priority. The seals they make are good to get to 200k at least in an N/A motor or one at low boost at about 230hp, that is the design criteria, and no sane engineer is going to over design a product beyond the desired safety factor just for kicks and giggles so the fact that they have 40 years of development on the engine doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a better way.
Third, THERE IS NO WAY IN THE UNIVERSE that I will divulge the composition of our seals to some guy in a forum who isn't even a customer simply because he feels like challenging the functionality of our product. What I will say is that the reason our claims are not bracketed with "MAY" is because it is pretty simple to determine the ability of a metal handle deformation, impact etc...grab a book...or better yet bend a piece of 300 series stainless back and forth and then do the same with a piece of 410SS...note how many times you bend until it breaks... now you know which one is better at handling deflection which is not necessarily the hardest...you want something to be rigid, add carbon..but it becomes brittle, if you want more rigid but still flexible, add nickel, but then it gets expensive...etc etc etc...pretty simple stuff. This is coupled with lots of hours at way more HP than this engine was meant to handle.
People that have them and use them properly and don't abuse their engines(i.e. no oil, detonation for long periods of time without letting off, lean running under boost for long periods of time etc) will see the results, people that don't will not. Its that simple.
I didn't start this thread...users did...there are several dozen ER apex seal sets running in cars out there, the parts will speak for themselves.
Chris
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 09-28-2010 at 04:36 PM.
09-28-2010, 06:26 PM
#61
better yet bend a piece of 300 series stainless back and forth and then do the same with a piece of 410SS...note how many times you bend until it breaks... now you know which one is better at handling deflection which is not necessarily the hardest...you want something to be rigid, add carbon..but it becomes brittle, if you want more rigid but still flexible, add nickel, but then it gets expensive...etc etc etc...pretty simple stuff. This is coupled with lots of hours at way more HP than this engine was meant to handle.
How so?
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09-28-2010, 07:46 PM
#63
Do you really expect me to believe that you have the slightest idea of the actual way to model what an Apex seal or piston ring or anything inside an engine experiences during abnormal operation? Because, I DO know how its done, its not the first time I've dealt with this.
This is pointless....you have no clue what you are talking about and it is evident in your responses so I am done with the pointless debate.
Chris
p.s. at least it was entertaining while it lasted for everyone else...lol
09-28-2010, 09:42 PM
#64
I divide by zero
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MM and Chris have no idea about metal urges. I know this shi* because I once went to this museum with a bunch of rocks.
*throws a chair*
Fight! Fight! Fight!
*throws a chair*
Fight! Fight! Fight!
09-29-2010, 07:07 AM
#68
Well I once went to the circus and saw a strong man bending a piece of steel. I then went home, bent a paper clip and the metal had a similar bend in it...based on those scientific studies I performed I confidently consider myself an expert in metallurgy.
09-30-2010, 02:57 PM
#69
I can't remember if this has been touched on in this thread
Mazda designed their apex seals to last at least 100,000 miles in an NA application . The likelyhood of detonation is slim . So they designed them for :
Extreme wear resistance
Moderate shock resistance
In an aftermarket FI'd car you have entirely different circumstances .
You want
Extreme shock resistance.
Moderate wear resistance .
Now anyone that knows anything about metallurgy will tell you that you would use different materials to achieve those two differing goals . So to say Mazda knows best and these Esmeril seals can't be any good is ignoring the fact that Mazda were not even trying to achieve what Esmeril is .
Mazda designed their apex seals to last at least 100,000 miles in an NA application . The likelyhood of detonation is slim . So they designed them for :
Extreme wear resistance
Moderate shock resistance
In an aftermarket FI'd car you have entirely different circumstances .
You want
Extreme shock resistance.
Moderate wear resistance .
Now anyone that knows anything about metallurgy will tell you that you would use different materials to achieve those two differing goals . So to say Mazda knows best and these Esmeril seals can't be any good is ignoring the fact that Mazda were not even trying to achieve what Esmeril is .
