Tamas

iTrader: (1)

Well, I admittedly don't know anything about this particular design of TKT, but this shop (and Geoff Knight himself) does not have a very good reputation as far as their supercharger or turbo kits and upgrades go.
I only heard the stories about applications they are / were offering for the Ford Probe, and the stuff people got was, ahem, less than stellar :p
You can find info on the Ford Probe forum - search for TKT or Geoff Knight.

Now, this might not apply to their newest creation but it doesn't hurt to be careful

Omicron

Good info

ichitect

There are some pretty vocal Thomas Knight critics at ProbeTalk, but if you read through there are also a lot of guys who defend him.

I don't think the ESC 400 was designed specifically with the Probe in mind... Geoff is marketing it as a more or less universal kit that "fits most stock engines 3.5L or less"

There are dyno graphs for the ESC400 Electric SC at: http://boosthead.com/dyno.htm

Looks like it really works.

Since it can fit so many models, you are looking at $500-900 in additional components, depending on your system.

Omicron

Hmmm, $2500 for the raw unit, another $1500 for plumbing and batteries, plus install and fabrication, say another $500. That totals to around $4500, which is comparable or more than to the regular turbo and supercharger kits that will soon be available for the RX-8. And with no guarantee of comparable results. I think I'll let someone else be the guinea pig.

Tamas

iTrader: (1)

That's what I'm talking about... from what I've gathered, the TKT stuff is grossly overpriced and it seems to be of questionable quality too. "Kits" missing fairly important pieces and welds that look like a hack job were the main complaints I can remember.
I was talking about experiences about their other offerings, not this electric thingy. And these are not MY personal experiences either, just stuff others were posting about. If this "supercharger" is better, then great.

ichitect

I don't think it would be that expensive ($4500)... According to the website, the price for an ESC raw blower unit is down to $1995, plus $500-$1500 for everything else if you can't install it yourself. So avg $3K total investment.

From what I've read, a lot of the welding issues are from a few years ago. I hear his quality has improved since then.

What they need to do is sponsor a few people, because you're right, nobody wants to pay to be the guinea pig. And with a totally new type of supercharger like the ESC, everyone is going to be very skeptical.

atsturbo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is Geoff Knight, the designer & inventor of the ESC-400 electric supercharger. I am writing to thank you for visiting my website, and to give additional info on my patented supercharger. Many people will be sceptical, as I dont blame them at all. I would be sceptical as well.
I developed a program to determine hp requirements for my ESC and tried like crazy to get enough power for more boost and CFM. But when faced with the limitation of electrical energy in batteries I settled for a smaller desing for 4 & 6 cyl engines. As I state in my FAQ's, it is foolish for someone with a car that has a quality production supercharger kit available to go with my ESC. But lets say you own a car with a small V6 or 4-cyl and no kits available. This supercharger design will allow you to mount it anywhere in any position--even in the trunk if you want!!! The 15 second bursts are just like NOS users are used to, and if the alternator is upgraded to a 200+amp unit the system can be regenerative at a 10:1 ratio. That means if you race two 15 second runs it will recharge in (15 + 15 X 10 X 85% efficiency = 353 seconds) or six minutes. That is much better than NOS as you MUST get the tank filled and the cost is $45 per bottle. My customers with NOS go through 3-4 bottles/week. Do the math--that is a LOT of $$$. Just so you know my credentials, I am on Vortech's referral list for custom supercharger design, I do R&D for Paxton, Ford Motorsports, as well as many custom desigs you see every day but dont know I designed them. I have been involved with turbos since 1976.
As for the criticism of my welding, people wanted tig welded manifolds for a mig welded price. While mig is strong, it is obviously not as visually appealing. Another problem with the Probe guys were countless copies of my kits sold as my kits on ebay and through the Probetalk discussion boards. They used junkyard turbos and intercoolers with compression bent pipes from a muffler shop. All of mine were mandrel-bent. Bad news travels much faster than good. I still hold the record at 787 flywheel hp from a Probe GT V6 bored and stroked to 3.2 with twin T3T04E hybrids. Noone ever mentions that, though.
Please feel free to contact me with your questions. I am truly open to any questions, advice, criticism, etc.
Geoff Knight--TKTurbos--atsturbo@aol.com
BOOSTHEAD.COM--786-243-2000

Omicron

Nice to see you on here posting, Geoff.

May I suggest that the best way to prove the validity of your design is to actually put one of these units into an RX-8, dynoing the car before and after, then post the results?

I don't know where you're located, but if you were to offer up a free kit, in exchange for the use of a forum member's car to prototype the unit, I'll bet you'll find a volunteer or two.

Tamas

iTrader: (1)

I believe he's in Florida.

atsturbo

I have not looked into the displacement of the RX8, as rotary engines are 300% the airflow of a similar displacement piston engine. The 13B flowed the air of a 3.9 liter engine, and revved to 9000 rpm all day. I used to build a lot of race turbos for rotary engines, and my calculations were always based in a 4.0 engine at 8000 rpm for the airflow. My ESC design is limited to a 3.5 liter at 6000 rpm producing 5 psi. BTW, I just did some additional dyno runs today at South Florida Performance at the request of Turbo Magazine. Yesterday I ported & polished the supercharger housing and installed rewound motors. With the standard ESC-400 boost dropped off from 5.5 psi @ 3500 down to 3 psi at 6700 rpm on the 3.5 V6 engine. With the ported housing I sustained 5.5 psi all the way to 6700 rpm, which means more airflow than 405 CFM @ 5.5 psi. Should be well over 500 CFM. The HP peak went up from 212 wheel hp to 234 wheel hp, and at 6700 rpm the power was at least 50 hp more. I will have ther dyno results posted in the next day or two. I also did a run with the ESC off until 5000 rpm and then switched the ESC on. HP immediately jumped over 100 hp. That dyno run will also be posted.

Omicron

Geoff, did you see my questions, above?

atsturbo

I saw your questions. I already have about a dozen units being tested on various cars out there by other performance shops. The market I have targeted is 2.5 liter and smaller. I just found the 13B six port rated at 250hp @ 8000 rpm. That engine will flow more air than this supercharger can flow while producing boost. I also have a centrifugal race version in the works with special motors and 700CFM capabilities at 5-6 psi. That is still at least 6 months away.

rotarygod

At least you are realistic and honest about its performance.

atsturbo

I have expected the industry to be sceptical due to the uniqueness of my invention. If I make false claims or am anything but truthful and honest it will kill my reputation. I have invested close to a half mil into this in the last five years, and dont want to shoot myself in the foot. The 'computer fan' with an air filter sold as a 'supercharger' or 'electric turbo' has always pissed me off. I built my first ESC in 1978 using a T11 cartridge and a 4hp 6V Ford starter motor running on 12V. I threw v-belts every 10-30 seconds on the compound pulley setup I used, but on my VW Beetle it made 6 psi boost at launch. I was not able to do better until I developed the idea of multiple motors. That only took 20 years :-( Just keep your eyes on the ESC progress. I am only a single person, so once several hundred of these are out there someone will play with the motor windings, use some type of mosfet controller, and the power gains will start to inch higher and higher. I fully expect an ESC supercharged import car to run 9's within two years. The ESC at 10 psi will be equivalent to a turbo at 13-14 psi, and a belt driven SC at 15-16 psi. A turbo always developes more exhaust backpressure than boost (called the E/I pressure-ratio), so power is NOT free like some people think. A crank driven SC at 15 psi takes 75-100 hp to turn it. The dyno run from yesterday shows an instant 100 hp gain at only 5 psi when the ESC was switched on at 5000 rpm. That would be at least 7-9 psi with either a turbo or belt driven SC.

rotarygod

I would like to disagree with just one comment but don't take it personally. A turbo does not always develop more exhaust backpressure than boost pressure. Most do but they don't have to. Marcus Williams' twin T-04 ethanol fed RX-7 race car developed 22 intake psi while only having 18 exhaust psi before the turbo. This was something that he could not get with only one turbo not even a large one. It is possible. It all has to do with the mass/mol relationship within the intake and exhaust gasses that makes this possible. So while it is unusual for there to be more pressure on the intake side than the exhaust side, it isn't impossible. Not trying to discredit you here. Just wanted to correct one statement.

atsturbo

I agree that my statement is mostly a blanket statement--but I am referring to street driven cars--not an alcohol car. The only occasions I know of where the E/I PR is less than 1:1 is in Indy, Cart, F1, and occasionally drag racing trailered cars. I worked on March open wheel turbos while at Turbo Tech in 1977. We found that if the turbine wheel was large enough the leverage would compress air in a smaller compressor wheel/housing with a less than 1:1 ratio. But 99% of all street driven cars have an average 1.7:1 up to 3:1 ratios. The example you give is an extremely rare race-only car, not a street driven car. But regardless of that ratio, if there is anything over -0- psi in the exhaust manifold it is not 'free' power. But I do appreciate your point--it is well taken.

deadrx7conv

Its looks like an eaton/roots type SC hiding in that ESC400.
What size is it?

atsturbo

For engines up to 2.5 liter I use the 62 CID Eaton--fully ported housing--extremely important for higher boost and efficiency. I used the 90 Eaton fully ported with rewound motors on my last 3.5 V6 dyno run and saw lower boost when compared to the 62 but there was no boost drop as the rpm went up. I maintained 5-6 psi to 7000 rpm. The 90 is the ESC-550 model. It requires six Oddysey 680 batteries (15 lb each and 7" X 6" X 3.5") and draws 20,000 watts. I dont push that larger model as only someone with good electrical understanding should get one because the extra current draw between 15KW and 20+KW is quite noticable in the relays--I use six relays for the ESC-550 and only three for the ESC-400. The larger unit is $500 more. I am only building them as special order versions. Still all CNC gears & adapters, but the motor rewinding is where the cost is incurred. I also have a centrifugal model capable of higher CFM numbers (500 CFM) and 15 psi. I am testing that model on my race car, and it wont be available to the public for close to a year. I want to run in the 10's with that one before I release it. I have spent almost a half mil in R&D and patents for this as well as magazine ads which started already in Power Pages Mag, and will be in Turbo and Sport Compact next issue. The ESC-400 is incredibly durable and will make any 4-cyl owner quite happy.

S2000

What about additional fuel requirements? With more air, you need more fuel. What kind of aftermarket fuel system was on the Avenger that you have on your website? What are the intake charge temps after the blower? There really isn't any need in cooling the charge of 10psi or less, but above that, the compressed air begins to get too hot to make usefull horsepower. Any thoughts?

atsturbo

I ran a safe 5-6 psi, and used a simple FMU and inline fuel pump for fuel. The delta rise at 6 psi is 80 degrees, and at 15 psi is 240 degrees. A water-to-air intercooler will be used on my Neon Race car running 20+ psi.

WTF no turbo

I know im a skeptic to,but for straight line running this thing seems pretty cool.If i read the article at www.boosthead.com correctly with a cap setup instead of battery you could boost about every 30 secs or so.I looked around a little bit and i could rap it all up for about 3400 bucks.I think thats cheap for a nice 5 to 7 psi setup with 1/4 the install time and problems.I also read that cars are going to 48 volt systems after 06 can anyone confrm this??

atsturbo

2006 will intruduce 42V electrical systems to a limited number of factory cars. My ESC simply cant work well on 12V so we run 24V which does power it nicely right now. We are releasing a larger unit in Feb called the ESC-550 which will fit a larger engine like the RX8 13B (flows 300% the air of a 4-stroke similar size motor, so it is a 3.9 for measurement purposes when comparing rotary to piston engines).

Feb 15th is the scheduled release date, and it will be great on engines up to 4.5 liter.

WTF no turbo

Same 2k price point?

atsturbo

Yes, same $2K price. If you want to get even more power you can fan-cool the motors and run 48V. We are building a 72V 36hp setup right now for my Neon ACR which will launch at 25-30psi and taper boost down to 12-15 psi at 7K rpm (boost always tapers downward on any permanent hp supercharger (like an electric one) because the higher the engine rpm the more air it uses and fan/compressor laws state that if HP is constant, then higher pressure = lower airflow, and higher airflow = lower pressure. Soon, in a year or so, we will have electronic controllers that can be programmed to make whatever boost you want at a specific rpm.

Omicron

This is an interesting idea. However, I'd need to "see" it on someone's RX-8 first, to find out how much it cost in total to get it installed and how effective it is. I'd also want to see dyno charts. But it is intriguing.