Bridgeported engine results
 

Do not argue with me or tell me a bridgeported RX-8 engine doesn't make more power. It does. We have tested it on on the dyno and on the track for many hours and it works. Look for details in the future. We are seeing about 233 rwhp or about 7% increase in airflow over our previous engines we've tested from BDC Motorsports (who I would recommend to do business with). Thank you Brian Cain for your services and experience to build this and allow us to test this on your behalf. I will not be sharing templates or measurements of this for others to duplicate. Brian has spent a fair amount of time and effort on his own coin because he believed there was power from a Bridgeported Renesis. He was right. I'll be sharing this info in the future. Again, don't ask me to send you templates or sizing as he is the guy who has work product and will be holding this closely as a business advantage to allow him more revenue from customers searching for this solution or more power or whatever their buying reasons.

Cheers,

Eric

That's awesome! finally another way to gain solid HP

The renesis is entering into another stage of developement.
Does the brigde reduce reliability a great deal?
233 to the wheels--heck just boost that to 5lbs and you are at 300? 5lb boost is very easily managed.

I've got about 3,000 miles on mine... no problems so far. Just need to tune it some more. It still isn't quite right in closed loop at 5000+ RPMs.

Any chance of seeing a dyno sheet?
Is the 233HP on an otherwise stock car?
Can you give us any basic info on the mods that make up that 233 HP number?
Dyno Pac, Dyno Jet, or some other kind of dyno?
Thanks for the info Eric.

NICE!......subscribing to this thread.

Don't tease us if you aren't going to put out:cool:


...Need more info

:scratchhe

I'm totally confused . Is this the same engine from the other thread with a dyno of a 233whp engine or something different ?

Great eyeballs! A+ for the observation. Unfortunately these are not the same. The 233 Motor was from a Star Mazda (or Pro Formula Mazda). Just so happens that they are near the same peak.

The bridgey actually made well above 233 in 5th gear but we do all our pulls in 4th.

I'm actually quite busy doing a zillion other things. This motor is not built but in the works and once it's built it will need a header and some kind of wacky motor mount fab'd up. Until then this post was just to let people know it's coming down the pike.

Trust me Brian and I have no intent of tesasing or other nor are we not going to put out. I just have a zillion other things going on including a couple of important races that are taking priority. This engine fiddling stuff is just something I enjoy doing when we aren't busy. Very low priority. So.....don't hold your breath but be surprised when you see some things.

I would guestimate Mid-March she will be on the dyno/track/sharing feedback. Good enough for you?

Sounds like the PP Exhaust renny is bridged and you and Brian have formed a business relationship.

Mid-March as in 9 months? That is a long time for rotor heads who want info now :SHOCKED:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe in the rotary world bridgeporting is the most reliable method of porting vs gains as it maximizes the lapping of the exhaust ports while still providing support for the seals?

No shit :lol: But good things come to those who wait.

For some people 9 months could be too soon! :eek:

Early testing feedback that would normally cook the motors we run in World Challenge showed zero issues upon tear down. We ran this motor for 4.5 hours at MAM at crazy WOT and right up to our 9,000 rpm hard ignition cut. Upon tear down we did not find the issues we normally find in the stock motors. Rather interesting. One data point doesn't mean much to me anymore so when we run it crazy fast for another couple of times, tear it down for inspection and see nothing, then I think Brian Cain is on to something and I'd label it as "reliable".

Until now we have 4.5 WOT hours at race pace in hot weather and a following dyno run which revealed 0 power loss. Tear down showed zero wear (too many measured details to talk about thank you).

All good

WHOOPS! August. Next month. I think the invisible keyboard ghost jacked my Mac

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

The most reliable porting yes--. Eric has somewhat answered my question.
It sounds encouraging... but we will see?
Any significant driveability issues.
Idle speed?

Thanks! I was confused on that point a little bit as well.

I wasnt here for a while and it looks like I will be visiting rx8club more often because of this guy EricMayer. First some race track renesis making 233WHP now this bridgeported making the same power I cant even think what numbers we will see in august maybe over 250whp
YOu are the MAN !!!!! When I think about 2007 people was making 185-190whp and turbo around 300 and many people thought we hit a limit on that motor
Its amazing we can see so much improvement.
Good luck and hope you hit some good numebrs!!!

Finally, my OE engine sitting in my garage has a new trip to make. Brian I told you I had more work for you on my website! :yelrotflm

nemesis8.com

Eric - missed you last time in Indy - was too busy myself to make the call. Maybe next time?

C'mon Denny. You'll have to guess on that one. You are a smart dude. What is your guess on idle speed and why?

You can doooo it!

I'm confused. :dunno:

Bridge port on older rotaries gave the car a lumpy sounding idle. The the renesis bridge port sound the same.

Perhaps this might help:

We have tested and continue to test various configurations of irons for BDC Motorsports and Brian Cain. We started with mild porting and documented things along the way. We repeated this. We drove this. We repeated this (a few times). We dyno'd these a few times (different builds of the same irons and/or exact same irons in a different assembly.

Brian then got more aggressive with his die grinder and we did the same. Dyno. Test. Record. Drive. Tear down. Inspect. Rebuild. Dyno. Drive/Test. Dyno. Teardown. Observe. We did this with two different engines.

Brian then sent us a crazy Bridgeported engine. Build. Dyno. Drive. Dyno. Teardown. Observe (looked better than anything we've ever seen). Rebuild and set for second round. Additionally we've built an e second bridge based on one of the motors that Brian worked above and will be duplicated that effort as well.

As you can see, my personal preference is to try and duplicate results with several attempts/tests/dyno/track time with more than one motor. There are small variations in output with stock motors (a few hp typically) and sometimes one will last an hour or two longer on the track than others. Running a couple of these things takes out some of the "its a fluke" factor and gives us more and better feedback. With spare motors all ready to rock, we can also stick an built engine back in the car quickly after yanking one to continue our testing loop while the other gets torn down and inspected. I think we have 5 motors in rotation including the stock WC motors that sit in the trailer/are ready to install. All have balanced assemblies from Brian at BDC. All run the higher oil pressure regulator, new oil pumps, new oil control rings, irons and housings that are well within tolerances so we can make near maximum compression and therefore consistant power that allows us to compare apples to apples. Consistant parts gets us consistant results.

NOW......As we continue our second on track test with the second bridgeport, we have the parts for the PPort that is yet to get started. Same new irons and obviously brand new 85 rotor housings. All the same rotating parts of a stock RX-8 will be used.

How am I doing so far? Clear things up? That PPort engine is running on a different thread. This is the Bridgeported thread. Sorry for any confusion. Too many threads going right now.

Short of street driven reliability questions (which I don't expect from you guys), you and BDC are taking all of the guess work out for the rest of us that may not have the budget to dive into what is pretty much un-charted territory.

I'm excited to see gains and more excited to see some of the theories discussed over the past few years put to work.

Keep up the good work and thank you for sharing.

Some additional info that should help to clear things up a bit. There are four threads of recent for each of these efforts plus an additional one:

1. Street Port vs. Stock started by Brian Cain. This was us under the radar. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/bdc-street-port-vs-stock-port-dyno-comparison-216762/

2. 233 Mystery thread which was the Star Mazda engine. This has become a convoluted thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/233-rwhp-dyno-sheet-218322/

3. Bridge Results (this thread).

4. On the horizon/future PPort project: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/horizon-peripheral-renesis-results-219339/

All of these are really apple to apple comparsions that will be duplicated (except the PPort because we are just playing around to see what it does). All use the same or very close to the same tune with the same Lambda values, same hearders, same injectors, same dyno, same spec race fuel (Sunoco GTX260), same tire pressures, same drivetrain temperatures, near same oil temps at the dyno, same gear (4th) although we sometimes pull 5th just to see the a higher dyno number and get a kick out of it (we post all dyno numbers in 4th gear and have found 5th to make approx 2-4hp more than 4th). All dyno pulls are STD corrected. Clean -11 NGK race plugs, same Mazdaspeed/AEM modified intake with a pretty clean air filter, same upper and lower intake, same mufflers, etc. Getting the picture folks? We try and take out as much variation as we can and I try and not to come to any conclusions about power or longevity until we run these things a few times.

Since I'm on a roll and my 3rd cup of coffee---I betcha we have over 500 pulls on these stupid engines over the past few years. Our good friend Pete Cozzolino of Cozzolino Motorsports in Indianapolis, IN has given us carte blance to use his shop and dyno and we often get into his shop without anyone being there and perform our testing and recording. He gave me keys to his shop a few years ago and we can get in and out of there in about 90 minutes (trailer unload to trailer load) and make a few dozen pulls. I've said this before and will offer it to interested readers again--the biggest variation in recording power is heat in the engine and drivetrain. The more heat you have the higher numbers you see. We will run pull after pull to get heat in the drivetrain as measured at the differential. The biggest part of this 90 minutes is getting heat in the differential. Usually takes a dozen pulls. We will usually record these pulls to watch the power curve (and peak numbers) inch up to what ends up being a hot diffential and the peak numbers. They end up leveling off and usually you see about 1 hp difference which is inside about 1/2 of a % which is pretty damn good enough in my book. Sometimes we see two hp (less than 1%) which again is good enough for me. I have to think that the dyno is not much more accurate than 99% so our duplicate or near duplicated numbers are good enough for me.

A word of advise if your chasing the biggest number you can at the dyno: Get heat in your drivetrain. Inflated tire pressures don't do anything from our testing. We run tire pressures as if we were on track (about 31 or 32 for the current Pirelli radial slicks we run in World Challenge). Higher for the Grand-Am Hoosier and/or R6 Hoosier compound. I usally start watching for repetative dyno numbers when the diff is over 130F and the oil is around 210F. 220F for us will see the highest numbers by approx 1 hp but that is pretty hot. Once these things start getting hot it takes longer to cool them down. Our big giant C&R custom dual pass fatty thick radiator and custom ducting will allow the water to hover just over our 185F water thermostat. Sometimes when the oil is about 215F or so the water temp will creep to 190F but increases in heat like this are pretty normal in all engines.

Eric Meyer boy scout and dyno nazi comments: Bring your own fire extinguisher and man it. Make sure others know where it is. If the dyno shop has one (or two), locate them and point them out to your buddies and strangers. You can't be too safe. Recheck the straps that hold your car down or ask the operator to recheck them after a few pulls. Often they will loosen up and you can get another click or two in the rachet straps. Bring a flashlight and peak under the car a few times during your visit. Have a buddy perform this role if your in the car pushing the throttle. Have him check the straps and shine the light into the engine bay to watch for any wackiness---especially if your engine is newly installed. Use the same octane gas, the same premix % and check your fluids before and after. I would go as far as using new or very clean plugs. Dirty plugs on these things is pretty dramatic in our testing. Clean or use a new air filter. Have someone man the fans at the front of the car. I purchased 3 big azz fans like those used to dry out carpet if your basement was flooded. One stays on the front water radiator on full. One for the passenger side that runs under the car and blows across the exhaust. One aimed or managed on the drivers side oil cooler while watching/managing our oil temps. Oil temps are (for us) the largest variation when the drive train is hot. We run a differential cooler and this will stabilize the diff temp to around 140-145F I think. Engine oil temp then becomes the variation. As mentioned above, higher oil temps will see higher numbers. We run plain ole' 5w-30 non synthetic/buy a 5 qt and get a free cheapie oil filter. I don't do oil analysis and think it's totally stupid and worthless. Yes you can see what it says but nobody does anything about it. It has been my experience that those high end serious engine builders that do this are looking for specific metals so they car tear down and go specifically to a component to furthur look for wear. I don't know any Road Race pro teams that do this. Why the crazies on that oil thread do that is beyond me because you can't do anything about it. We change our oil and filter after each outing and it comes out like new. About every 5 hours or so. Clean oil is better than expensive oil in my book. $25 bucks for oil and an hour of labor is cheap insurance. We have never, ever, ever, ever, ever had an oil related failure and I've NEVER seen any bearing wear---ever. This with either a balanced assembly or a stocker (Brian Cain plug to get your rotating assembly balanced at a very fair price along with his fantastic feedback). High rpms on a stock motor will see some rotor tip wear on the irons. We see about nil when the assembly is balanced. Anything over 9,000 on a stock motor appears to show this iron wear compared to 8,500 (where I recommend shifting at because there is no power above that). For those that enjoy reading my coffee induced long ass posts, iron wear = less compression = less power. Most all high end engine builders will start a build with BRAND NEW irons and housings. They will make about 1 or 2 hp more than used ones. High mileage street engines don't make/can't make the power we see compared to the new stuff or like new stuff we use. Pretty simple stuff---just like piston motors. Google piston engine performance builds and there are so many similar concepts in engine builds you'll understand why we do what we do. Quite honestly new oil pumps, chains, seals, oil rings and such as so standard it's a joke not to go this route. I have found the RX-8 market to be a "cheaper" customer/owner and you'd be shocked how few people will build engines this way. I'm certain that those guys that are touted as godlike and the gurus of rotary engine building do the same exact crap that we do. No super secret tricks that make 10 hp. They don't exist. They don't exist. They don't exist. All stock race motors with headers on a dynojet make approx 210-215 hp. Period. The newer series II make about 2 hp more'ish according to a very reputable engine builder that owns an engine dyno and builds many of these for the open wheel Star Mazda market. Note: these stock engines running Motec on .90 Lambda and race gas make approx 270 flywheel and two more for the newer production engines.

Gotta go. Meyer out.

Once again, Eric, I love your attention to detail and methodical approach to r&d. That's the way it always ought to be. :)

When are you releasing hp figures and dyno data to the public? Was that what was happening in August?

Paul.

Hey Paul,

I'll scrounge up some Bridge numbers. Brian did the bridge. Interesting shape of the curve. I think I have a 231 number printed out. 4th gear. Cleanest curve I could find with a smoothing of 5.

August is the test of a PPort motor (assuming we can get a crazy header and motor mount built). That is a DIFFERENT thread (see above).

with the increased breathability of the engine (and more fuel?) are yall thinking that the charge temperatures are dropping and this may be affecting the metal temperatures?
Hince a cooler combustion chamber could also help with the side seal spring issue?
I have often thought that the side seals are too close to the combustion face and this bridgement may end up being a point in which some cooling could occur?
I do wonder how the exhaust ports are handling the increased flow? Maybe there is more there than was once believed?
Leaving PP out of this discussion totally.

I think too damn much.

The charge temp doesn't mean jack diddly. It is what it is. Put a temp sensor fore and aft of some point on the lower and measure it. I strongly suspect that you can't influence it enough to make any difference. You yourself know that the outside of the intake manifolds are hotter than the ambient air entering the system and measured at the air intake sensor. You have said that several times. You can't change/lower this temp unless you install a super refrigerator in the car or inject some type of gas/other that I'm not going to address because that's not part of a normally aspirated car engine and that's the path I'm headed down. I am not and do not claim to be an expert in water or meth or cocaine or soda pop injection so nobody ask me any of this crap.

The EGT's are the exact same and a little higher and if you think about it they should be HIGHER Denny. C'mon man. Start thinking before you post this stuff. Your a smart dude. More power = more heat. Everybody has seen this time after time after time and it's a well known concept in every kind of engine I can think of.

Why am I harder on you than just about anyone else on this forum? Because you try more stuff than most of the talkers on this forum and you measure stuff. You are a smart dude my friend and not afraid to think about or try stuff (even if it is derived from an Acid trip or thunk up during a 105 degree fever).

You rock bro

E

Great stuff.

Don't forget the turblown Pport thread also: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...93#post4025693

i feel like i just got out of class. keep the info coming!

^ +1 if only University was this practical/real world

eric, good show. if i can get my feet planted...i'll have some fun as well :naughty:

This is all good info, Thank you for sharing Eric.

I hope some day to post before and after dyno comparisons on a forced induction set up with Mr. Cain's bridge ported setup.

He's referring to a PP exhaust Renesis using early '84 housings

Agreed. If all of the aftermarket intakes took that approach quite a few wouldn't be selling any product ;)

hey i've got a blown Gsl-se out back, why didn't i think of that!

sorry guys my brain must be getting old.
Just thought the charge that goes through the bridge would offer a cooling affect on an area that never before had any? Increasing the amount of fuel coming in would also increase the amount of whatever cooling that air/fuel is capable off. Richening up the a/f a little on street driven bridegported car would probably a very wise thing to do. heck It would be wise for stock engines.With the ethanol mess that is going on--you dont know what the heck you have in the tank.

Eric--glad you are hard on me--helps to push me to figure things out for myself. I never accept facts, I love concepts too much. My apologies to the forum members for my rambling/wild ideas at times.

Let me explain my idea better.

My most comfortable area of this car are the cooling systems. I understand those systems better than any of the others. Hence my unexplained concept of the bridge offering cooling through its air/fuel flow to an area closer to the corner and side seal than ever before. For those of you that do not understand that, read a little on intake/exhaust valve cooling in recip engines. And yes--charge cooling is part of the cooling systems. FI guys are well aware of this and I know race teams are also. Keeping the charge cool has more benefits than just allowing more dense air into the rotor.
Anyway--Eric has well documented and identified side seal spring issues that apply to us all. Heat/lubrication seems to be some of the major things that lead to a short side seal spring life. He was able to document that by recording the life of these springs when using oil injection in some engines and then just using premix with no oil injection in others. Using the oil injectors allowed for a longer time before the side seal spring became affected. By using the oil injectors ( i hate that word and they dont "inject") the engine was supplied with oil that lubricates and helps cool the side seals/spings and corner seals hence longer life. So, possibly, the bridgeport by helping to further cool the area closer to the corner/side seal can be of benefit in increasing the side seal spring life? Eric has already said they are getting no signs of the side seal spring issues yet, after hours of running?

So in conclusion, not only does the bridgeport give more breathability, it may also offer a cooling affect to a critical part of the engine that nothing else can?

Any way, crazy or not--that is what I am thinking.

By the way, I know the bridgeport idle speed will be around 1500-2000 rpms , which would make it very impractical for the street. At that idle speed if you have any significant time in stop and go traffic, it is going to run hot. You would have to do some significant changes to the cooling system in order to compensate for that. I was just thinking that others that read the forum may not understand that part of life with a bridgeported engine.

I am new to the rotary engine, but would the dynamic compression ratio be lowered after the bridge? Increased overlap and all?

Steve

You could create overlap with a bridgeport, as none exists in the Renesis engine. It shouldn't affect compression because that happens after the intake charge.

You could create overlap with a bridgeport, as none exists in the Renesis engine. It shouldn't affect compression because that happens after the intake charge.

Question: What items on the car have higher amp draw and cause the motor to bog down a bit when they turn on? Might this influence idle rpm speed?

quick question. when you refer to oil injection for side seals are you talking about the sohn adapter? or something else. forgive me if i am way off target.

The Renesis idles lean at close to 800rpm. If you richen up idle and set up the six (!) idle timing maps correctly, it seems like it should be capable of idling better than other bridgeported 13Bs.

My idle is at 1200 RPM, and running fine with no problems. I also still get around 240~260 Miles to a tank. I haven't noticed a significant change in mileage as long as I keep my foot out of the gas.

I haven't considered this one but it might be right! Hmmm.

Right on that point. It's a very important variable to look at on an FI setup depending upon the base fuel type being used.

4 1/2 hrs at WOT I think is what they tested it at the track with and I want to say there was no side seal spring wear at all.

Could be. I've never thought of it like that, though. Always looked at it more from the perspective of both the positive and negative effects of overlap.

I run them on street cars between 1200-1400rpm. The Rx8 seems to like the lower RPM end.

B

... but that's not fun, B. :)