TexasKyle

*slap*

rotarenvy

So your saying your supercharger delivers air in such a unique way that an experienced rotary tuner wouldn't be able to get it running?

When the 'some guy' in the garage has a business and around 20 years experience tuning rotaries. I would think they could tune a rotary. When the new engine management is a motec, I would ditch the STD computer except for a few factory features. When a motec cost about the same as a couple years worth of expendable tyres why would you settle for less?

So if you sell these kits to Australia and they cough and splutter for some unforseen reason what would be your fix?

rotarygod

What he is saying is that if he sells you a kit and you or anyone else tunes it, if you blow your engine up, the blame will almost certainly go to the supercharger when in reality that wasn't it. Even if you personally wouldn't blame it, others would. He is the ONLY person trying to get carb exemption for this kit to make it truly street legal. Tell me how an aftermarket ecu would be street legal.

My response to tha Australian market or any other foreign market would be one of 2 things.
1: Don't sell to them. It isn't made for those cars. (Sorry guys)
2: Use at your own risk. Due to differences in vehicle tuning around the world, the manufacturer can not guarantee that every market will utilize the same tuning and therefore can not guarantee that the product will work as it does in it's intended home market.

Lastly, show me ANY turbo/supercharger kit manufacturer out there for any car that will replace an engine if the engine blows up, even if it is the fault of the product. There isn't one. At least Richard doesn't want this to happen if for no other reason than to protect his image and that of his product.

It's not to say that someone out there can't tune an ecu to work with his blower. Many can. However any manufacturer concerned with the proper use of their product will be smart enough to know that these people are less common than those who "think" they can tune it on their own but really can't. Even the curious backyard tuner who assumes that lightly playing around can't hurt anything, can end up hurting the car. From a sales standpoint, he should develop a system that works exactly as he intended it to but also make it tamper proof where no one can modify it. Sure you can remove his ecu solution and use your own and people inevitibly will. The problem lies in the fact that these same people NEVER blame themselves for the mistake when they should. Even if the ecu solution that I am working on ever did become a viable option for Richard, and it may not, it would have a certain program locked into it and then access restricted and the main board design modified to prevent tampering with by those who have built them. It's the only safe way to do it but there would be the certain few out there who would tamper with it. The easiest thing to do in this scenario is that if there is ever any warranty work requested for a product (it will be for workmanship), the ecu should be shipped back to make sure that nothing has been tampered with. If evidence is found, the entire warranty would be voided. That's how I would do it so I can appreciate that Richard is trying to save his reputation.

He is going out of his way to design a very nice product and do it the way everyone wishes it to be done, properly AND fairly cheaply. That's pretty noble. It will still always be done wrong or too expensive for a few out there. The sheer fact is that no one out there does know the blower better than he does. He's got a certain design for the unit that he wants to do and a certain design goal. Who's to question his design before they ever see it? How many here have even seen an axial blower?

mcpheeg

I disagree with your statement indicating that this unit should only be sold to the american market. What is the difference between the american market and the european market. Everyone seems to think the american RX8 is different from the european cars. The only difference I have found is the spark plugs are different. Someone with more now how than me could give me a list of differences probably. This american 8 was meant to be more powerful but that is not the case. The rx8 was meant to be released with 280HP this then dropped to the 240 mark then released at the 230HP figure. It was probably because you guys got then first you still thought you were getting a 240 machine. But the reality is different. This supercharger will work just as well on an austrailian rx or european rx. The differences are the fuel types available in each country. In the UK we can only buy 95Ron or 98Ron. But the rx likes the lower fuel 95. More miles and there is no difference in performance.
If I am way off the mark please except my humble appoligies.
Frustrated RX8 tuner.
Max power I have obtained is 240HP measured at the flywheel. This has been achived with a reamimeya header, rmagic high flow cat, custom ehaust cat back, canzoomer unit, Lightened flywheel and clutch from ogura racing and a blitz style air filter stuck in the standard black air box.
I think I have tried all products for the RX8 in the early days such as unichips and no cat installs.
Most have failed and been a dissappointment. This must be the hardest car in the world to try and find some free HP.

rotarygod

I definitely don't think that the unit should only be sold within the US but if there were a problem with other markets and their tuning couldn't be accounted for here, there would definitely have to be other possibilities and special tuning for those markets wouldn't be one of them. We don't have their cars and letting someone else somewhere develop the map that gets sold with those kits is not a very smart option. Those situations would be a "use at your own risk" scenario but they are pretty much that way anyways.

If there are no differences between different market cars, why did you yourself ask what would he do if there were a problem on a car from a different market? There won't be if they are the same so the question itself was irrelevant. Neither he nor any other kit maker out there will warranty someones engine if they blow it up anyways. The simple thing is to tune the system around a certain minimum fuel octane level and let that number be known ahead of time. That way if there are markets around the world with higher octane than here, they won't have any issues. Of course they will complain that they could have more power left in their tuning that isn't being taken advantage of but you can't make everyone happy.

I do think Richard is on the right track. He knows his product better than anyone else anywhere. Would I personally design it differently? With the limited knowledge I have of these blowers and how they have worked in the past I would be inclined to say yes but that is only a feeling. What if he gets it done his way and then all of a sudden it makes perfect sense to me? I haven't seen it done his way so until I do, I can't say it isn't the better way to do it. The tuning developed for any kit should be mandatory to use with it to maintain any product warranty. At least it will be this way in his eyes and I understand why. Obviously he needs to make sure it is tuned properly but he's too cautious not to. Greddy apparently isn't. If people change it, that's their choice but they do it at their own risk and their own expense. People will do it. That's only natural. Remember that his overall layout isn't done yet. He may still make tweaks to the setup yet. He needs to get it all tested first.

Don't think Richard is getting mad over this topic. He is understandably a little irritated and defensive but his methods are being questioned and he is the only person truly qualified to know about these blowers and their best setup. This is also a very personal project for him as this isn't some large corporation that he is employed by that makes products for the mass market. These are his babies. You just don't tell a designer that there is a better way to do it when no one but he has seen anything yet. He's the only one with facts. Everyone else has speculation.

You are correct that this car is hard to find free horsepower. That frustrates alot of people. It's actually a perception issue. I almost feel that Mazda should have advertised this car as having 175 hp and then restricted many aspects of the engine's intake and exhaust. Suddenly everyone would like it because they know up front what they are getting and because they can get "free" horsepower. That would have been pure genious on Mazda's part. Instead they did what people are always striving to do anyways. They extracted nearly all they could from the engine and then sold it that way. No need to go in and find "free" horsepower. They've done it for you. We are talking about an engine that makes almost 70 hp more than the last nonturbo rotary and it still has the same displacement. That's alot of "free" horsepower that is already included. Too many people think that you should always get more than what you paid for rather than what you paid for. (The RX-8 most certainly makes it's rated power btw) When they don't get more, they feel ripped off and like they got less than they paid for. I feel the problem was with advertising of the power like I already said. 175 hp is a good number and is still 15 more than the last n/a rotary but now you'd have more room to improve and everyone would be happy. At least the perception would hold true. To get 240 hp out of an old 13B rotary would take some serious porting, terrible emissions, a loud exhaust, and much worse gas mileage than the engine has now. I'd say everyone with an RX-8 has it good with all of their "free" power but they just don't know it. Even the Turbo II RX-7 at 9 psi of boost only made 200 hp. This engine has come a long way and people still aren't happy with it. Why was everyone so happy with it when it was weak but not now?

mcpheeg

I hear what you are saying loud and clear.
I agree with your statements and sorry if I took it a bit out of context.
I am not saying myself that I could do a better job of tuning the charger, just make sure that I can get one as well. I live in Scotland, this is most unfortunate place for a rotary owner as no such rotary tuners are in this country. I am basically flying blind with this project car.
Thats why I have my eye on another car as well, you guys are so lucky, you can get one if you want but me I have to import the damn thing. Costs ££££'s
Got my eye one the new Shelby Cobra GT500 Mustang.
Looks sweet.
But I will still be keeping the RX as it is so much fun.
Hope everything goes well for richard and his project, I have already offered him a unichip that I have, but as it is piggyback hes not too keen.
Like I said before I am not flaming just voicing concerns.
Thanks for listening.

Lock & Load

Rotarygod

Are you suggesting that a Supercharger built here in Australia and tuned to our Australian cars as the one being done by Hymee / Dr Phil wont be suitable for the American market ???

Australia happens to have some of the best rotary specialists tuners in the world , anyone who goes FI must take a calculated risk but obviously they are prepared to lose their warranties and possibly their engines for the sake of more power ( caveat emptor )

B.....free
michael

rotarygod

No I'm not saying that. I personally have no doubt that any forced induction kit will work just fine around the world. After all, it is still the same engine. I just merely threw out the example suggesting that different markets may have a different state of required tune and depending on who the company is, it may or may not be easy to get a region specific tune.

I'd love to go to Australia sometime and visit all of the rotary shops. I know how good they are down there. All in all I think the U.S. has less rotary specific shops overall than Australia or Japan. Unfortunately we don't see much come our way from those shops and only a handful of ours are actually more than just service centers that create parts for specific needs.

Sigma

Stillen warranties their superchargers, at least on the 350Z, for a full 3 years. That's on the engine; the supercharger itself is only a 12-month warranty. And on a car known to go ka-boom under boost rather readily as well.

rotarygod

Then they are the only ones who will warranty an engine. Let's see Greddy or other kit makers out there warranty your engine if you blow it up.

David_M

I wouldn't be too impreesed with Stillens warrenty. The 1 year on the supercharger is a manufacturer warranty that you would get no matter where you bought the SC. The optional ( key word there ) engine warranty is purchased from a third party with Stillen as the broker. If you wanted to you could probably get a warrenty on the Greddy kit if you chose to deal with a third party and were willing to abide by their rules for installation and use.

RVM

Soooo, any news on the supercharger yet?

Razz1

Hey all we want is a good reliable system. RP will improve the product overtime and you will be able to send the ECU back for a re-tune.

So what's your worry?

If you guys really want to buy something to blow up your engine go get a Greddy and turn up the boost. Then you'll be like Broken Apex Seal.


RP's unit is gonna blow the doors off that 5lb boost. I bet your gonna get 100 to 150 RWP from his SC. Wah Wah Wah... then you can't mess with his ECU and your car won't break.

truemagellen

I think that is probably an overstatement...we are talking about a supercharger here

I'm VERY interested in RPs and Hymee's upcoming SCs...but up to 150RWP?

lets all hope

I want a SC for its smooth power curve...in addition for reliability and ease of install...plus maintainence is a breeze

SC may cost more but these things are worth it

Turbocharger...I've ridden in a turboed greddy...it is a blast, using an ECU to boost performance to the max...will make it a dyno queen yes...but will it fullfill the rest of my interests? no way

Keep up the great work Richard!

Lock & Load

Well if you bring a RP supercharger Dowunder fit it to my car and tune it correctly i will pay for your fare :D but it will have to beat our local Hymster Supercharger at the rear wheels .

Most of our interstate forum members i am certain would love to see you as well , you could visit all our rotary shops and see a bit of Australia .

B...free
michael

rotarygod

Thanks for the offer. That would be fun. There's probably at least one person down there though who just wants to smack me though!


I think saying Richard's unit will make 150 more horsepower is a little optimistic. His goal is only about 300 or so. Because of this, Hymee's very well may make more power in the long run. Maybe not. We'll see.

Lock & Load

I would have thought Texans were tough and would fight back :D if an Aussie would try and smack them , dont think you need to worry most of the Aussies on the forum are IT pacifists .

B...free
michael

truemagellen

Kangaroo Punch...watch out RG! :D

guy321

Why do you keep saying IT pacifists like all IT people are pacifists? I'm Not a pacifist!

truemagellen

he'll CTRL+ALT+Delete your *** right? :p

Red Devil

In the neighborhood of 300whp sounds like more than enough for the street.

If the ECU control for this is going to be completely sealed, based on how our engines all seem to react so differently to upgrades won't this both limit horsepower and in some cases make this SC not the best application for some of us?

rotarygod

Your engines only react a little differently because of the ecu controlling them. If you can take the ecu out of the equation where it can't compensate for anything, you will have consistency between cars.

Photic

I'm interested in it for a variety of reasons. It's the one I'm holding out for myself.

I think it's very innovative and unique. Along with a rotary it really appeals to me. Knowing that they use them on Jet's is extra appealing.
From the sound of it, and I know there isn't any guarantees, but it sounds like it would pass a smog test especially since it is a draw through system. Which also helps if the belt to the SC fails, you won't be stopping the flow of air to the engine.
I like superchargers more than turbos, personal preference.
The size. That thing is tiny.
and RP seems like a cool guy who knows his stuff.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the results.

rotarygod

If the belt breaks, the supercharger will still spin when the engine is running. Even a roots supercharger will just purely from the airflow through it. That's why they really don't take as much power as people think they do when you are just cruising and they aren't working. If you aren't flooring it anywhere, the difference in gas mileage will be small. Obviously under full throttle they rob power but they give back far more than they take, just like turbos.

nijelSC

Roots and twinscrews don't spin without belt. Leave the bypass valve open and you drive stock car.