Axial Flow Supercharger
07-09-2004, 12:48 AM
#251
Originally posted by Turbine_pwr
Your airflow measurement is a nice number to have.
Your airflow measurement is a nice number to have.
I have documented it more here: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=33370
Cheers,
Hymee.
07-09-2004, 02:57 AM
#253
See Hymee, what did I tell ya. That turbine guy can put the numbers together. But the engine/aircraft numbers??? Off the top of your head!!! Sick. The F86 I finally can tell you was the J 47 in various power levels. Then in the H it was the J47-27 or J 72.
The amazing thing of the J47 line is it started out at 5000 lbs ended up at 9200. That' almost a 100% gain.
The only other blank I might be able to fill is the MD 90, if it's the same as the 80 family it was the Pratt JT8D-200.
Did I once hear that the Air Force F 4's were reengined just prior to retiring them?? One long time user of my V8 size units was the Air Force crash investagator for the f-4. Later the F-16. He had said something to that effect. He also has one of my blowers on a Chevelle since 1988. Just converted it to EFI.
He also told me that on the F 16 they changed from mechanical fuel control to electronic for a weight savings of 300lbs. Also that in the mechanical control unit there were more moving parts then the rest of the plane combined!! He sain in his crash investagation course they opened one up and there weremore gears and racks etc then he felt anyone could have fit in there.
Back to the F 4, Interesting that the F4 went to Isreal.
I know the F86 went to several countrys. Isreal was one and my friend Zeuschal got all the parts to build his 86 from them. He went over there and met with some very nice people and came home with everything. The only thing he started with was a de- miled shell. His started out a D and I don't know what it would be considered when he was done but it had H wings.
It was so perfect that the Air Force used to invite him to all there shows to exibite it. There's a book called Aces and their planes, I think. Anyway the 86 they use in the book is dave's. there is a cocpit shot that shows how perfect it was. In fact the day he had the tail off even Doug Thorten (T-38 Talon) had to come by and see it uncovered.
So if someone knows where there is a de miled F4 airframe I bet I can find the parts people. That would be more fun as you can take a friend along. To scare the **** out of. And I can get trining from my friend from the AF. You know you just can't go to your local flight school to learn to fly one. Z had to teach Thorten.
Isreal should be done with them by now. I think they are using F16's. Cheap parts sale coming up,
How did I get from a Rx8 to F4?? Don't lnow but it would be sweet. There were some British Knats (or nats) up for sale a few years ago. That's what the aerobatic team flys or used to anyway.
It would be nice to see that air flow chart you did turbine. I have to be more carfull then the positive displacment guy do in sizing .Your charts might help to predict surge and stall potential.The first Rx unit is on the test bench. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.
Or was that the chart you posted that I couldn't get downloaded. I'll go back and try again. Anyway I hope to have some interesting thing to talk to you about soon.
I'll get some pictures unit under test for posting.
Richard
The amazing thing of the J47 line is it started out at 5000 lbs ended up at 9200. That' almost a 100% gain.
The only other blank I might be able to fill is the MD 90, if it's the same as the 80 family it was the Pratt JT8D-200.
Did I once hear that the Air Force F 4's were reengined just prior to retiring them?? One long time user of my V8 size units was the Air Force crash investagator for the f-4. Later the F-16. He had said something to that effect. He also has one of my blowers on a Chevelle since 1988. Just converted it to EFI.
He also told me that on the F 16 they changed from mechanical fuel control to electronic for a weight savings of 300lbs. Also that in the mechanical control unit there were more moving parts then the rest of the plane combined!! He sain in his crash investagation course they opened one up and there weremore gears and racks etc then he felt anyone could have fit in there.
Back to the F 4, Interesting that the F4 went to Isreal.
I know the F86 went to several countrys. Isreal was one and my friend Zeuschal got all the parts to build his 86 from them. He went over there and met with some very nice people and came home with everything. The only thing he started with was a de- miled shell. His started out a D and I don't know what it would be considered when he was done but it had H wings.
It was so perfect that the Air Force used to invite him to all there shows to exibite it. There's a book called Aces and their planes, I think. Anyway the 86 they use in the book is dave's. there is a cocpit shot that shows how perfect it was. In fact the day he had the tail off even Doug Thorten (T-38 Talon) had to come by and see it uncovered.
So if someone knows where there is a de miled F4 airframe I bet I can find the parts people. That would be more fun as you can take a friend along. To scare the **** out of. And I can get trining from my friend from the AF. You know you just can't go to your local flight school to learn to fly one. Z had to teach Thorten.
Isreal should be done with them by now. I think they are using F16's. Cheap parts sale coming up,
How did I get from a Rx8 to F4?? Don't lnow but it would be sweet. There were some British Knats (or nats) up for sale a few years ago. That's what the aerobatic team flys or used to anyway.
It would be nice to see that air flow chart you did turbine. I have to be more carfull then the positive displacment guy do in sizing .Your charts might help to predict surge and stall potential.The first Rx unit is on the test bench. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.
Or was that the chart you posted that I couldn't get downloaded. I'll go back and try again. Anyway I hope to have some interesting thing to talk to you about soon.
I'll get some pictures unit under test for posting.
Richard
07-09-2004, 07:33 AM
#255
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Richard,
Hold out for an A10.. those are being retired from service in the next couple years. Everyday those fly over my workplace. Ugly, but very imposing!
Keep us posted on the Supercharger too
I was not interested in doing FI at all on the RX8 until I saw this. An unusual engine deserves an unusual FI solution.
Hold out for an A10.. those are being retired from service in the next couple years. Everyday those fly over my workplace. Ugly, but very imposing!
Keep us posted on the Supercharger too
I was not interested in doing FI at all on the RX8 until I saw this. An unusual engine deserves an unusual FI solution.
07-09-2004, 08:49 AM
#256
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oh the A-10 is beautiful in flight though...When I was in Beaufort I loved watching them make their low flight training runs over the ocean...exhilirating..
wow...most impressive...not many non-USAF F-16 pilots know about the fuel control change...if you've ever looked at the mechanical fuel control setup it _IS_ complicated..
wow...most impressive...not many non-USAF F-16 pilots know about the fuel control change...if you've ever looked at the mechanical fuel control setup it _IS_ complicated..
07-09-2004, 09:51 AM
#257
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Originally posted by Richard Paul
He also told me that on the F 16 they changed from mechanical fuel control to electronic for a weight savings of 300lbs. Also that in the mechanical control unit there were more moving parts then the rest of the plane combined!! He sain in his crash investagation course they opened one up and there weremore gears and racks etc then he felt anyone could have fit in there.
Richard
He also told me that on the F 16 they changed from mechanical fuel control to electronic for a weight savings of 300lbs. Also that in the mechanical control unit there were more moving parts then the rest of the plane combined!! He sain in his crash investagation course they opened one up and there weremore gears and racks etc then he felt anyone could have fit in there.
Richard
That company performed that upgrade on Belgian F100s but also Royal Saudi AF and even USAF units.
07-10-2004, 05:23 PM
#259
Sorry to be gone so long.
The Mazda unit is on the test bench. Just havn't been able to find all the sensors.
Not strange I think I'm loosing my memory. So it spins but until monday we can't really start doing any tests.
I wanted to take some pictures but never did. Perhaps I will go in tomorrow and shoot some. If I can get them to disk then they should be posted by Sunday night.
Just spinning it though and only having pressure to read I think it may be more flexable.
Again anything I say may not really be the case as there is no hard data yet just my observations.
So expect some pictures by Monday and a few days later some data. Although even that will be preliminary. The best thing wiil be if we can go to the engine adaption quickly thereafter.
I'll be in touch, Richard
The Mazda unit is on the test bench. Just havn't been able to find all the sensors.
Not strange I think I'm loosing my memory. So it spins but until monday we can't really start doing any tests.
I wanted to take some pictures but never did. Perhaps I will go in tomorrow and shoot some. If I can get them to disk then they should be posted by Sunday night.
Just spinning it though and only having pressure to read I think it may be more flexable.
Again anything I say may not really be the case as there is no hard data yet just my observations.
So expect some pictures by Monday and a few days later some data. Although even that will be preliminary. The best thing wiil be if we can go to the engine adaption quickly thereafter.
I'll be in touch, Richard
07-10-2004, 09:56 PM
#261
Registered
Richard,
make sure you do two things for the people who are watching this thing.
1. Get a sound clip.
2. Get a video clip if possible.
I'm out of town for a while, so if you want me to host pictures, i might be a little slow to respond.
make sure you do two things for the people who are watching this thing.
1. Get a sound clip.
2. Get a video clip if possible.
I'm out of town for a while, so if you want me to host pictures, i might be a little slow to respond.
07-11-2004, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
You want to talk about real engines and real power. Look back at the turbo era of formula one. The 80's. How about 1200 hp from 91 cu in. That was qualifying trim true but they were only detuned to 1000 hp and then ran a 200 mile race. The numbers again 1500 cc's over 1000 hp and they run for two hours.
They did not use roots blower. They ran little bitty turbos on 4 and 6 cld engines. these were about the size of your drag race blower by itself.
They did not use roots blower. They ran little bitty turbos on 4 and 6 cld engines. these were about the size of your drag race blower by itself.
(As you read this, remember that horsepower = speed; torque =
acceleration)
* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
than the first 6 rows at the Daytona 500.
* Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1 gallon of
nitromethane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with
25% less energy being produced.
* A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the
dragster supercharger.
* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive,
the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the
flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.
* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric
water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of
an arc welder in each cylinder.
* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After ½ way,
the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at
1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up
in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow
cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at
an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track,
the launch acceleration approaches 8Gs.
* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed
reading this sentence.
* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to
light!
* Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions
under load.
* The redline is actually quite high at 9500rpm.
* The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew
worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US
$1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record
is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top
speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of
the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).
Putting all of this into perspective:
* You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered
Corvette Z06 (or blown Viper). Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel
dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You
have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through
the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an
honest 200 mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The
dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard,
but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within
3 seconds the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish
line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
* Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you
200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he
passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race course.
That, folks, is ACCELERATION!
Here's four more:
* It takes 1500+hp just to turn a top fuel blower.
* The pressure coming out of the headers can provide 1000lbs of
downforce. When a cylinder goes out, it can actually steer the car due to loss of
downforce on one side.
* There is so much torsional twist in the crankshaft (up to 20 degrees
at the big end of the track) that sometimes cam lobes are ground offset
from front to rear to try and re-phase the valve timing closer to
synchronization with the pistons.
* The car will be going over 60mph before the rear wheels cross the
start line, 300 inches.
acceleration)
* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
than the first 6 rows at the Daytona 500.
* Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1 gallon of
nitromethane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with
25% less energy being produced.
* A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the
dragster supercharger.
* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive,
the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the
flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.
* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric
water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of
an arc welder in each cylinder.
* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After ½ way,
the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at
1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up
in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow
cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.
* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at
an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track,
the launch acceleration approaches 8Gs.
* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed
reading this sentence.
* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to
light!
* Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions
under load.
* The redline is actually quite high at 9500rpm.
* The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew
worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US
$1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record
is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top
speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of
the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).
Putting all of this into perspective:
* You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered
Corvette Z06 (or blown Viper). Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel
dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You
have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through
the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an
honest 200 mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The
dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard,
but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within
3 seconds the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish
line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
* Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you
200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he
passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race course.
That, folks, is ACCELERATION!
Here's four more:
* It takes 1500+hp just to turn a top fuel blower.
* The pressure coming out of the headers can provide 1000lbs of
downforce. When a cylinder goes out, it can actually steer the car due to loss of
downforce on one side.
* There is so much torsional twist in the crankshaft (up to 20 degrees
at the big end of the track) that sometimes cam lobes are ground offset
from front to rear to try and re-phase the valve timing closer to
synchronization with the pistons.
* The car will be going over 60mph before the rear wheels cross the
start line, 300 inches.
07-11-2004, 03:22 PM
#266
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Drew quoted one of my posts on drag racing. Nearly all of that with the exception of a couple of lines, I originally posted.
.
07-11-2004, 04:02 PM
#267
Man, if drew only knew the fun I could have with him. But I will not let this thread become a coffee clotch of bickering woman.
I will respond to those things that are relitive to airflow and superchargers.
Drew you make my point, the roots blower is so inefficient that you can't even get the math to come out that bad. As I said in my dragster paper they are getting down to the same efficiency as the engine. that is about 37%. That is why if they spin the blower faster to get more pressure they go slower. Check the math I ran in that paper. I haven't read it in awhile but I'm sure it makes the point.
Let's see, the first 6 rows at Daytona. That's 12 cars, right. Breathing through restrictor plates so they all together have about 33 sq in. typical dragster inlet 54 sq ins. So now what???
Instead of braging about the horspower they should call the Pentagon. How did they kill two spectators with a head stud??? And I had to tell them why. No undercut on the stud. I will not say his name but he was the tech boss a few years ago, said to me "how was anyone to predict a head stud breaking?"
I asked "did it break in the first thread in the block? Yes. Then I could have.
All the stretch was consentrated in that one little v groove. It had to break. And as to the spark plugs coming out why don't you just have the manufactures roll the threads for starters. I have a permenant fix but they didn't want to go there.
So they flow 3000 cfm and use 1000-1500 hp Driving the pump. Your proud of that??? They live for a whole 4 seconds, that's an accomplishment. For the piston manufactures anyway.
I visited a freind who was going to Texas for the last two races of the season. I watched as they loaded the semi. For one top feul dragster they loaded one complete spare engine oil pan to blower scoop. Then 3 blocks, 6 cranks, 26 sets of pistons, 12 sets of rods. 2 milk cartons full of clutch discs. And on and on it went.
That's racing?? Remember I said a freind. I do know top feul people and have for my entire life. Drew, have you talked to Austin Coil lately, had lunch with any top fuel drivers? Had a beer with someone who makes top fuel blowers. I have.
OK, back to the topic. I just came from the shop where we ran the 8 unit for a few hours. Like I said some sensors are missing but we could run for pressure and power used. Lets just say that this unit is more flexable, as in running wider band then prior units. I just ran a surge line and took some pictures. Not enough to use up the roll so i didn't print them.
We shall do more work on the bench this week. You will not nessasarly be getting everything that is develped as it takes some time to really sort it and publish it in meaningfull terms. But you'll get enough.
I'm very happy with this blower except that it makes too much pressure. We can work on that.
Richard
I will respond to those things that are relitive to airflow and superchargers.
Drew you make my point, the roots blower is so inefficient that you can't even get the math to come out that bad. As I said in my dragster paper they are getting down to the same efficiency as the engine. that is about 37%. That is why if they spin the blower faster to get more pressure they go slower. Check the math I ran in that paper. I haven't read it in awhile but I'm sure it makes the point.
Let's see, the first 6 rows at Daytona. That's 12 cars, right. Breathing through restrictor plates so they all together have about 33 sq in. typical dragster inlet 54 sq ins. So now what???
Instead of braging about the horspower they should call the Pentagon. How did they kill two spectators with a head stud??? And I had to tell them why. No undercut on the stud. I will not say his name but he was the tech boss a few years ago, said to me "how was anyone to predict a head stud breaking?"
I asked "did it break in the first thread in the block? Yes. Then I could have.
All the stretch was consentrated in that one little v groove. It had to break. And as to the spark plugs coming out why don't you just have the manufactures roll the threads for starters. I have a permenant fix but they didn't want to go there.
So they flow 3000 cfm and use 1000-1500 hp Driving the pump. Your proud of that??? They live for a whole 4 seconds, that's an accomplishment. For the piston manufactures anyway.
I visited a freind who was going to Texas for the last two races of the season. I watched as they loaded the semi. For one top feul dragster they loaded one complete spare engine oil pan to blower scoop. Then 3 blocks, 6 cranks, 26 sets of pistons, 12 sets of rods. 2 milk cartons full of clutch discs. And on and on it went.
That's racing?? Remember I said a freind. I do know top feul people and have for my entire life. Drew, have you talked to Austin Coil lately, had lunch with any top fuel drivers? Had a beer with someone who makes top fuel blowers. I have.
OK, back to the topic. I just came from the shop where we ran the 8 unit for a few hours. Like I said some sensors are missing but we could run for pressure and power used. Lets just say that this unit is more flexable, as in running wider band then prior units. I just ran a surge line and took some pictures. Not enough to use up the roll so i didn't print them.
We shall do more work on the bench this week. You will not nessasarly be getting everything that is develped as it takes some time to really sort it and publish it in meaningfull terms. But you'll get enough.
I'm very happy with this blower except that it makes too much pressure. We can work on that.
Richard
Last edited by Richard Paul; 07-11-2004 at 05:32 PM.
07-11-2004, 05:48 PM
#268
Registered User
Richard,
Seriously, don't bother with him. It isn't worth your typing or time. I don't think most RX-8 owners care too much about a blower designed to last 5 seconds.
Interesting facts but the connection of a dragster to the RX-8 and your project are very limited. I think most reading understand that.
-Mr. Wigggles
BTW, please get a digital camera.
Seriously, don't bother with him. It isn't worth your typing or time. I don't think most RX-8 owners care too much about a blower designed to last 5 seconds.
Interesting facts but the connection of a dragster to the RX-8 and your project are very limited. I think most reading understand that.
-Mr. Wigggles
BTW, please get a digital camera.
If it starts again, I'll close the thread - and we all lose out.
07-12-2004, 11:39 PM
#271
I'm testing, nothing has broken. What I want to do is upgrade some of my lab equipment. I have digital this and that but it is not integrated. So that is priority now. Does not mean we will stop the car installation or the engine work.
I am very happy with the performance of this unit and do not see any mods nessasary. Except removing a stage. It just has too much pressure with the current design.
Turbine has me nuts about these engines. So I have looked up the missing F-100.
It used the Pratt J57, So did the F101, F104, F105 and F106a. In addition to the B-52. Well rounded powerplant you might say. Also the J75 is basicly the uprated version. The F106a had that spec engine. Other applications may have been uprated later in their usage.
Just that the only one of these that was long lived was and is the B-52.
The A-7 uses the Allison TF41. the AB 300 uses the GE CF6-50.
Still all axial flow too.
Thanks Richard
Turbine, I need an e mail address for you.
I am very happy with the performance of this unit and do not see any mods nessasary. Except removing a stage. It just has too much pressure with the current design.
Turbine has me nuts about these engines. So I have looked up the missing F-100.
It used the Pratt J57, So did the F101, F104, F105 and F106a. In addition to the B-52. Well rounded powerplant you might say. Also the J75 is basicly the uprated version. The F106a had that spec engine. Other applications may have been uprated later in their usage.
Just that the only one of these that was long lived was and is the B-52.
The A-7 uses the Allison TF41. the AB 300 uses the GE CF6-50.
Still all axial flow too.
Thanks Richard
Turbine, I need an e mail address for you.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 07-12-2004 at 11:53 PM.
07-13-2004, 12:03 AM
#272
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when you say, "do not see any mods necessary" do you mean, no physical upgrades to the engine/drivetrain, but need ECU upgrade, or just nothing at all in general?
07-13-2004, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by shelleys_man_06
Plagiarism at its best. I read the part about power=speed and torque=acceleration, and then I smiled. My favorite sentences always have an equal sign .
.I'm not hear to call names any more because I don't feel that gets us anywhere, instead I'm tring to stay super grounded because I have lost buco $$$ in pipe dreams. No hard feelings towards Richard or anyone else.
Richard- Any pics of the unit on the 8? I would like to see the setup for educational purposes.