Alright I'm going to get FI...
09-29-2004, 06:41 PM
#26
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FYI
Posted by another member who spoke to SFR.
Posted by another member who spoke to SFR.
I talked with Tim today from Speed Force and here is what he told me.
They have spent 6months on this turbo project and will have it ready for sale next month (Nov).
The ratings Tim has told me are 350hp Flywheel 300 rwhp at about 8000rpms
The ratings Torque are 300ftlb Flywheel and 250 ftlbs at the wheels, at about 4500rpms
Tim has told this will all be posted in the next few weeks. I hope this is all true
They have spent 6months on this turbo project and will have it ready for sale next month (Nov).
The ratings Tim has told me are 350hp Flywheel 300 rwhp at about 8000rpms
The ratings Torque are 300ftlb Flywheel and 250 ftlbs at the wheels, at about 4500rpms
Tim has told this will all be posted in the next few weeks. I hope this is all true
09-29-2004, 11:04 PM
#27
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300hp at the wheels is nothing to scoff at, that’s for sure. I wonder what e.m.s. they are planning to use? That’s going to be one expensive kit if it gets you above 300 horses, out of the box. Major fuel modifications (open loop conversion? + pump and injectors), a programmable computer that can accept a pressures sensor input and somehow come up with a map using the Rx8's existing flow meters, a front mount, the turbo and supporting piping, plus a million other things. BTW, your car would still have to be tuned so its not like its plug and play (we would hope). Sounds like a very nice kit if those numbers hold true. If so, I’m sure its capable of much more with the correct tuning.
09-29-2004, 11:22 PM
#28
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I think they were using a TSI pigyback controller. I'm too sure. I'll agree with you silver in saying the power you can get is about 300 hp, baseline. Not too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if someone turned up the boost. The power number would rise exponentially. :D
I talked about milling the rotor recess to obtain a lower static compression ratio, but there's not much left to machine, or so the story goes.
I talked about milling the rotor recess to obtain a lower static compression ratio, but there's not much left to machine, or so the story goes.
09-30-2004, 11:44 AM
#29
93silverFD, I heard from a rotary shop in Florida, that works with fishman, that they talked to Mazda that not this december but the next MS would release one, but lightwieght rotors are a problem because with high amounts of boost, which is what we all want, the rotors scratch and dent rather easy. Mazda didn't design the rotors with turbos in mind due to the other complications (such as our exhaust headers and intake never crossing), they wanted to cut wieght.
09-30-2004, 07:13 PM
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Where is SFR located ? I saw SSR is in Arizona. If they are Arizona I wouldn't mind driving down there for a week vacation and having them do my install if I got the FI. 300 whp....NICE !!! That's like a 120 whp increase for most of us. How can you complain about that ?!?!
09-30-2004, 08:23 PM
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A friend of mine has an opinion to share with you guys about the advantages of turbos:
First of all, there are so many different types of turbos out there and alot of the ones you are talking about are obsolete and used by amateurs who have little money but want to beef up their car. The "turbo lag" can be bad, but an experienced driver knows how to use this to his advantage. If there was no turbo lag on some cars, you'd have all that power instantly and spin the tires ALL day long and lose by a mile, however easing into it and getting a fairly good start, then opening the trottle will give you the power at the right time and you'll destroy somebody with the right setup. There's also hybrid turbos where turbo lag is very minimal, if the lag really bothers you. Perfecting the right turbo setup for your car is difficult and most people don't take the time to eliminate all the problems, they just take it for face value and say a supercharger is better because it's power on demand, which is good. And as for letting the car cool down, this is required for ANY car that has been run hard, like a day at the track. This is why turbo timers, better intercoolers, racing radiators, and silicone hoses were created. I'm not knocking superchargers because I know what they are capable of too, but I know for a fact that more can be pulled out of a turbocharger and maintenance is not as complicated or expensive as people think.
The differences between turbos and superchargers are subtle but important.
1. More power produced per pound of boost (intake pressure)
2. Variable power levels: a turbocharged engine can be set up to provide different power (boost) levels at the push of a button, while a supercharged engine requires changing pulleys and belts to change power levels. This turbocharger versatility can be quite handy in many instances.
3. No maintenance, adjustment or replacement of drive belts and pulleys is required for turbochargers, an aspect which frustrates some supercharger owners.
4. Turbos offer much higher overall power potential, with the ability to be modified easily for higher power levels in the future. Superchargers are more expensive to upgrade for more power, if upgrades exist at all.
First of all, there are so many different types of turbos out there and alot of the ones you are talking about are obsolete and used by amateurs who have little money but want to beef up their car. The "turbo lag" can be bad, but an experienced driver knows how to use this to his advantage. If there was no turbo lag on some cars, you'd have all that power instantly and spin the tires ALL day long and lose by a mile, however easing into it and getting a fairly good start, then opening the trottle will give you the power at the right time and you'll destroy somebody with the right setup. There's also hybrid turbos where turbo lag is very minimal, if the lag really bothers you. Perfecting the right turbo setup for your car is difficult and most people don't take the time to eliminate all the problems, they just take it for face value and say a supercharger is better because it's power on demand, which is good. And as for letting the car cool down, this is required for ANY car that has been run hard, like a day at the track. This is why turbo timers, better intercoolers, racing radiators, and silicone hoses were created. I'm not knocking superchargers because I know what they are capable of too, but I know for a fact that more can be pulled out of a turbocharger and maintenance is not as complicated or expensive as people think.
The differences between turbos and superchargers are subtle but important.
1. More power produced per pound of boost (intake pressure)
2. Variable power levels: a turbocharged engine can be set up to provide different power (boost) levels at the push of a button, while a supercharged engine requires changing pulleys and belts to change power levels. This turbocharger versatility can be quite handy in many instances.
3. No maintenance, adjustment or replacement of drive belts and pulleys is required for turbochargers, an aspect which frustrates some supercharger owners.
4. Turbos offer much higher overall power potential, with the ability to be modified easily for higher power levels in the future. Superchargers are more expensive to upgrade for more power, if upgrades exist at all.
09-30-2004, 08:46 PM
#34
Originally Posted by mighty mouse
A friend of mine has an opinion to share with you guys about the advantages of turbos:
First of all, there are so many different types of turbos out there and alot of the ones you are talking about are obsolete and used by amateurs who have little money but want to beef up their car. The "turbo lag" can be bad, but an experienced driver knows how to use this to his advantage. If there was no turbo lag on some cars, you'd have all that power instantly and spin the tires ALL day long and lose by a mile, however easing into it and getting a fairly good start, then opening the trottle will give you the power at the right time and you'll destroy somebody with the right setup. There's also hybrid turbos where turbo lag is very minimal, if the lag really bothers you. Perfecting the right turbo setup for your car is difficult and most people don't take the time to eliminate all the problems, they just take it for face value and say a supercharger is better because it's power on demand, which is good. And as for letting the car cool down, this is required for ANY car that has been run hard, like a day at the track. This is why turbo timers, better intercoolers, racing radiators, and silicone hoses were created. I'm not knocking superchargers because I know what they are capable of too, but I know for a fact that more can be pulled out of a turbocharger and maintenance is not as complicated or expensive as people think.
The differences between turbos and superchargers are subtle but important.
1. More power produced per pound of boost (intake pressure)
2. Variable power levels: a turbocharged engine can be set up to provide different power (boost) levels at the push of a button, while a supercharged engine requires changing pulleys and belts to change power levels. This turbocharger versatility can be quite handy in many instances.
3. No maintenance, adjustment or replacement of drive belts and pulleys is required for turbochargers, an aspect which frustrates some supercharger owners.
4. Turbos offer much higher overall power potential, with the ability to be modified easily for higher power levels in the future. Superchargers are more expensive to upgrade for more power, if upgrades exist at all.
First of all, there are so many different types of turbos out there and alot of the ones you are talking about are obsolete and used by amateurs who have little money but want to beef up their car. The "turbo lag" can be bad, but an experienced driver knows how to use this to his advantage. If there was no turbo lag on some cars, you'd have all that power instantly and spin the tires ALL day long and lose by a mile, however easing into it and getting a fairly good start, then opening the trottle will give you the power at the right time and you'll destroy somebody with the right setup. There's also hybrid turbos where turbo lag is very minimal, if the lag really bothers you. Perfecting the right turbo setup for your car is difficult and most people don't take the time to eliminate all the problems, they just take it for face value and say a supercharger is better because it's power on demand, which is good. And as for letting the car cool down, this is required for ANY car that has been run hard, like a day at the track. This is why turbo timers, better intercoolers, racing radiators, and silicone hoses were created. I'm not knocking superchargers because I know what they are capable of too, but I know for a fact that more can be pulled out of a turbocharger and maintenance is not as complicated or expensive as people think.
The differences between turbos and superchargers are subtle but important.
1. More power produced per pound of boost (intake pressure)
2. Variable power levels: a turbocharged engine can be set up to provide different power (boost) levels at the push of a button, while a supercharged engine requires changing pulleys and belts to change power levels. This turbocharger versatility can be quite handy in many instances.
3. No maintenance, adjustment or replacement of drive belts and pulleys is required for turbochargers, an aspect which frustrates some supercharger owners.
4. Turbos offer much higher overall power potential, with the ability to be modified easily for higher power levels in the future. Superchargers are more expensive to upgrade for more power, if upgrades exist at all.
09-30-2004, 10:27 PM
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Only the people that are building the prototypes. No kits have been made available to the public outside of the Japanese market.
That should change drastically by the end of this year though.. So say the companies.. but they have been knwon to miss deadlines and target dates so who knows.
That should change drastically by the end of this year though.. So say the companies.. but they have been knwon to miss deadlines and target dates so who knows.
10-03-2004, 09:18 AM
#38
Why does it seem that so many people with opinions regarding power-adding devices and the Renesis tend to take a cynical approach? I dealt with the same thing when I pondered nitrous oxide. There were far more people who told me that I would "wreck my engine" than there were those who offered any substantive opinions backed by published reports. My conversations involved not just supercharging versus turbocharging, but also nitrous. Imagine the same discussion we have here with the viability of nitrous thrown in the mix. I chose to consult a few people whose names we all know. For different reasons we all agreed that the Renesis should be amenable to increases in torque/horsepower output if the changes are done carefully. I can happily report that the handful of bolt-ons and a 55 h.p. shot of nitrous have worked well to propel me into the low 13 second 1/4 mile time very easily on stock wheels/tires. I am sure with slicks I could get into the high 12's. Next up-new fuel/spark maps and another 20 h.p. worth of nitrous. At least we now know that the Renesis and the RX-8 drivetrain can mechanically tolerate certain levels of power that were previously doubted. When any of you get an FI system, I would be happy to do a side-by-side driveability comparison and publish the findings in RX Tuner magazine.
Charles
Charles
10-03-2004, 10:13 AM
#39
Go for it Charles. I agree with you. It just takes time to figue this engine/ ecu out. Personnally I don't like FI. Richards approach is the only one I think that I could be interested in. I am following with interest the porting polishing ideas and your header design. Patience all. Mean while if you want POWER NOW talk to Charles !
Olddragger
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10-04-2004, 10:52 AM
#41
well after watching the performance of the Speed Source RX-8's I have decided to purchase and build one for the SCCA, after the basic safety mods, I'll put on adjustable rear and front sway bar and coilovers. Then next I plan on fabbing up my own SC from ATI for the car. So we can do a side by side but by then I'm sure after the wieght loss and mods it want be very conclusive. But I will post results when complete. For the mean time I'm interested in doing a venom VCN setup on my 8 and I've skimmed thrrow charles DIY on the nitrous, does it list all the mods you preformed to make it operate right?
10-04-2004, 12:10 PM
#42
The cool thing about the Zex kit I used is that it was simple to install and safe at the 55 h.p. level. I would hate to hijack this thread, so p.m. me or post on the nitrous threads I have going. My previous comment a couple posts above was just a comment on the state of attitudes encountered around here sometimes. I find it humorous and/or annoying that those who desire more power are sometimes the biggest critics at the same time, regardless if the method discussed.
Charles
p.s. I, once again, accidentally shifted into second gear at about 70 or 80 mph and the engine is still running well after hitting over 10K rpm. The nitrous was on at the same time and I still have no problems. This engine can really handle some abuse!!
Charles
p.s. I, once again, accidentally shifted into second gear at about 70 or 80 mph and the engine is still running well after hitting over 10K rpm. The nitrous was on at the same time and I still have no problems. This engine can really handle some abuse!!
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 10-04-2004 at 12:12 PM.
10-04-2004, 12:31 PM
#43
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True.. but if they were a project in real life and missed as many dead lines as they had promised.. the project would have been axed a long time ago... It's also annoying... to mislead the public and get expectations high about their product, only to miss their target date over and over again....
10-04-2004, 02:33 PM
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There’s only one true way to enhance the power output of an internal combustion engine, Oxygen. Do what you will to get it in there, mechanically (turbo / sc), or chemically (Nitrous), it all increases power.
I'll tell you what though, after seeing inside a Renny over the weekend, I fear that the edge of that troublesome port is going to have to be ground down to safely make any real power, on all rews. It’s ok though; I can’t wait till someone goes all the way. 3mm seals, massive exhaust ports, Webber jets in the e-shaft (to keep the rotors cool), nice big oil cooler, a massive single, vitron coolant and oil seals, ect.
I'll keep dreaming.
I'll tell you what though, after seeing inside a Renny over the weekend, I fear that the edge of that troublesome port is going to have to be ground down to safely make any real power, on all rews. It’s ok though; I can’t wait till someone goes all the way. 3mm seals, massive exhaust ports, Webber jets in the e-shaft (to keep the rotors cool), nice big oil cooler, a massive single, vitron coolant and oil seals, ect.
I'll keep dreaming.
Last edited by 93silverFD; 10-04-2004 at 02:35 PM.
10-04-2004, 02:39 PM
#45
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Oxygen?! Are you aware of how volatile this diatomic element is by itself? :p
As stated by the brighter bulbs on this forum, it's not the strength of the engine, rather the electronics and the fuel system. I believe the internals are quite strong, regardless of what a few people have to say.
As stated by the brighter bulbs on this forum, it's not the strength of the engine, rather the electronics and the fuel system. I believe the internals are quite strong, regardless of what a few people have to say.
10-05-2004, 06:03 PM
#46
After my several attempts to wreck my engine, some purposeful and some out of sheer stupidity, I agree with S.M. Those massive exhaust ports will be planned for when I build my header. That project will start in about three weeks when I get money together.
Charles
Charles
10-05-2004, 06:22 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by 93silverFD
I'll tell you what though, after seeing inside a Renny over the weekend, I fear that the edge of that troublesome port is going to have to be ground down to safely make any real power, on all rews. It’s ok though; I can’t wait till someone goes all the way. 3mm seals, massive exhaust ports, Webber jets in the e-shaft (to keep the rotors cool), nice big oil cooler, a massive single, vitron coolant and oil seals, ect.
I'll keep dreaming.
10-05-2004, 06:47 PM
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now you know how the rest of us felt at Racing Beat!! that intake port needs work!! not just edge in question but the whole port needs smoothing!! and how about those exhaust ports?- can you believe how much room is left on those to open them up?!! you can make them HUGE!! on the wait part- im probbly a year or 2 away but you'll see it from me eventually.
On the eventually part, the sooner the better. Hell, if someone were so inclined, I would love to build them a motor at parts cost just to see what we could get out of the ports. I guess like everyone else though, I'll have to wait till the first of the warranties expire.
Its gonna be a while..
