Advice sought on tuning intake ports
01-20-2006, 11:06 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by MadDog
Acutally, boost is increasing as I approach red line. As I said, I can't really feel a difference either way. Let me ask you a question: are you boosted? If so, do really still feel a 'kick in the pants; around 6kRPM? I don't. Its hard to feel a kick in the pants with the turbo giving you a knee to the grion! 
01-20-2006, 12:12 PM
#27
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FI is all about getting a higher mass flow rate to the combustion chamber.
It is illogical to think that more power will be made with a flow restriction like keeping the tertiary ports shut.
Shutting those ports will reduce the mass of air that can get into the combustion chamber per unit time at higher RPMs. That's not speculation; it's basic physics.
You may have eliminated a lean spot, but have reduced flow. Therefore, your engine will make less power. Mo' bettuh you fix the flat spot with tuning rather than bugger your engine's breathing capacity.
It is illogical to think that more power will be made with a flow restriction like keeping the tertiary ports shut.
Shutting those ports will reduce the mass of air that can get into the combustion chamber per unit time at higher RPMs. That's not speculation; it's basic physics.
You may have eliminated a lean spot, but have reduced flow. Therefore, your engine will make less power. Mo' bettuh you fix the flat spot with tuning rather than bugger your engine's breathing capacity.
01-20-2006, 12:30 PM
#28
^^ This is assuming that the primary ports aren't sufficient to fill the motor.
MadDog was alluding the the point that the inlet of the turbo has less flow area than the total flow area of the primary ports.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
The added runners in the intake are designed to increase flow by a function of resonance.
While I agree that it cant hurt to have as much air available to the motor as possible, if the availability of that air is limited, giving it choices for a flow path is pointless.
Like some would post a GIF that reads "This thread is useless without pics!", I want one that says "This thread is useless without data!".
We need to know the vacuum in the inlet of the turbo and the boost pressure before the TB, after the TB and at the port (or close to it).
Along with that, we need to know the temperature at all of those points.
It pains me greatly that my car is 2500 miles and several weeks away from me at this time.
I'd build a thermocouple/vacuum probe and we would know all this tonight.
MadDog was alluding the the point that the inlet of the turbo has less flow area than the total flow area of the primary ports.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
The added runners in the intake are designed to increase flow by a function of resonance.
While I agree that it cant hurt to have as much air available to the motor as possible, if the availability of that air is limited, giving it choices for a flow path is pointless.
Like some would post a GIF that reads "This thread is useless without pics!", I want one that says "This thread is useless without data!".
We need to know the vacuum in the inlet of the turbo and the boost pressure before the TB, after the TB and at the port (or close to it).
Along with that, we need to know the temperature at all of those points.
It pains me greatly that my car is 2500 miles and several weeks away from me at this time.
I'd build a thermocouple/vacuum probe and we would know all this tonight.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-20-2006 at 12:49 PM.
01-20-2006, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
^^ This is assuming that the primary ports aren't sufficient to fill the motor.
MadDog was alluding the the point that the inlet of the turbo has less flow area than the total flow area of the primary ports.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
The added runners in the intake are designed to increase flow by a function of resonance.
While I agree that it cant hurt to have as much air available to the motor as possible, if the availability of that air is limited, giving it choices for a flow path is pointless.
Like some would post a GIF that reads "This thread is useless without pics!", I want one that says "This thread is useless without data!".
We need to know the vacuum in the inlet of the turbo and the boost pressure before the TB, after the TB and at the port (or close to it).
Along with that, we need to know the temperature at all of those points.
It pains me greatly that my car is 2500 miles and several weeks away from me at this time.
I'd build a thermocouple/vacuum probe and we would know all this tonight.
MadDog was alluding the the point that the inlet of the turbo has less flow area than the total flow area of the primary ports.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
The added runners in the intake are designed to increase flow by a function of resonance.
While I agree that it cant hurt to have as much air available to the motor as possible, if the availability of that air is limited, giving it choices for a flow path is pointless.
Like some would post a GIF that reads "This thread is useless without pics!", I want one that says "This thread is useless without data!".
We need to know the vacuum in the inlet of the turbo and the boost pressure before the TB, after the TB and at the port (or close to it).
Along with that, we need to know the temperature at all of those points.
It pains me greatly that my car is 2500 miles and several weeks away from me at this time.
I'd build a thermocouple/vacuum probe and we would know all this tonight.
01-20-2006, 01:35 PM
#31
Originally Posted by Sapphonica
Agreed. I am going to find out more this afternoon. As luck would have it, two of the top tuners in the world are going to have a look at my 8 today.
01-20-2006, 02:18 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Sapphonica
FI is all about getting a higher mass flow rate to the combustion chamber.
It is illogical to think that more power will be made with a flow restriction like keeping the tertiary ports shut.
Shutting those ports will reduce the mass of air that can get into the combustion chamber per unit time at higher RPMs. That's not speculation; it's basic physics.
You may have eliminated a lean spot, but have reduced flow. Therefore, your engine will make less power. Mo' bettuh you fix the flat spot with tuning rather than bugger your engine's breathing capacity.
It is illogical to think that more power will be made with a flow restriction like keeping the tertiary ports shut.
Shutting those ports will reduce the mass of air that can get into the combustion chamber per unit time at higher RPMs. That's not speculation; it's basic physics.
You may have eliminated a lean spot, but have reduced flow. Therefore, your engine will make less power. Mo' bettuh you fix the flat spot with tuning rather than bugger your engine's breathing capacity.
OKAY! I HAVE A DYNO APPOINTMENT AT 3:30 PM MOUNTAIN TIME!! We won't have all the diagnostics that MM wants, but it will give us the ultimate answer, even if it doesn't tell us why!
It makes me laugh to think that this one discussion is going to make me spend $70 to answer this question!
But, hell.... I've done so many changes lately with the injectors and the fuel management strategy - I guess its time to see what's going on anyway.... I was hoping to lean things out a little bit before going to the dyno, but WTF. Therefore, I sacrifice my finances for the forum!Sapph, the problem that I have is that the runners are in some sense acting like an accumulator. I just don't know, and neither does anyone else at this time, that the little turbo can supply enough air to fill all the additional volume presented to it. If the turbo were able to supply limitness flow, then the area of the intake ports would be the biggest restriction. In that case it would absolutely make sense to keep them open all the time. There are a ton of variables at work here. My totally unedu-ma-cated intuition tells me that the flow rate of the turbo is the biggest restriction right now. I say that because its unable to keep boost pressure once those runners open. If it had the flow rate available, it would try to maintain pressure. I could be totally wrong about this. Its all being pulled out of my
. i was just happy that I was able to identify the reason for the boost drop off and the lean spike. But, honestly, no one has anything other than speculation as to the effects on power output. That's why I have the dyno appointment.
01-20-2006, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
Damnit! Too late for me to get a flight to Albuquerque...
C'mon out! I'll wait for you!
I've got a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue Label to toast with!!
01-20-2006, 02:39 PM
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about 7.5 - 8 psi. Really conservative AFR though. About 10.5-11
I'm planning on just two pulls right now. One with the APV motor connected and one with it disconnected (runners closed). If it gets close to an hour's time on the dyno, I might just fork out the dough and do some tuning while I'm up there.
I'm planning on just two pulls right now. One with the APV motor connected and one with it disconnected (runners closed). If it gets close to an hour's time on the dyno, I might just fork out the dough and do some tuning while I'm up there.
Last edited by MadDog; 01-20-2006 at 02:48 PM.
01-20-2006, 03:19 PM
#38
Originally Posted by MadDog
C'mon out! I'll wait for you!
I've got a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue Label to toast with!!
I've got a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue Label to toast with!!
Take pics.
However, I'm planning on some free time in March once I'm moved out there to Phoenix permanently. We should book a day at the dyno.
01-20-2006, 03:25 PM
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Did you try Southwest out of BWI?
Agreed on the dyno time. I'm willing to drive to Phoenix. Maybe more 8 owners out there to hook up with. The 8 owners here are really timid. I think the RB intake is the wildest thing any other 8 owner in Albuquerque has done... we're really pushing the envelope here in New Mexico....
Agreed on the dyno time. I'm willing to drive to Phoenix. Maybe more 8 owners out there to hook up with. The 8 owners here are really timid. I think the RB intake is the wildest thing any other 8 owner in Albuquerque has done... we're really pushing the envelope here in New Mexico....
01-20-2006, 03:32 PM
#40
Originally Posted by MadDog
Did you try Southwest out of BWI?
Besides, I automatically get upgraded to first class on AmWest, so I am spoiled.
Originally Posted by MadDog
Agreed on the dyno time. I'm willing to drive to Phoenix. Maybe more 8 owners out there to hook up with. The 8 owners here are really timid. I think the RB intake is the wildest thing any other 8 owner in Albuquerque has done... we're really pushing the envelope here in New Mexico....
Here in DC, just about all of them are turbo now.
Its really competitive around the Beltway.
EDIT - I just read your sig and realized that you and I have almost the exact same setup with the exception of the flywheel (I'm stock) and the mid-pipe (I'm not stock). Where did you install the WBO2S? I had to put mine at the back of the midpipe to keep from frying sensors every week.
Oh - HAPPY BIRTHDAY on Sunday!
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-20-2006 at 03:50 PM.
01-20-2006, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
Bah! $460 for a round trip today and I can't get a return until Sunday, which is too late; I have to work on Saturday. Plus I don't think I can get to Albuquerque in time - the next flight out is at 9pm EST.
Take pics.
However, I'm planning on some free time in March once I'm moved out there to Phoenix permanently. We should book a day at the dyno.
Take pics.
However, I'm planning on some free time in March once I'm moved out there to Phoenix permanently. We should book a day at the dyno.
01-20-2006, 11:18 PM
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Okay, I'm back home now. Even a night of drinking is not going to keep me from sharing this stuff with you guys.
I'm trying to get the DynoJet software to give me a nice graph....
MM- Thanks for the B-day wishes! I can't believe you actually noticed... (sniff sniff) haha!
As far as the WB02 gage, I have it before my cat. I put it in the front flare, leading up to the cat element. Its been in there for about 8 months or so, I haven't lost one yet. I didn't even make that heat sink either....
I'm trying to get the DynoJet software to give me a nice graph....
MM- Thanks for the B-day wishes! I can't believe you actually noticed... (sniff sniff) haha!
As far as the WB02 gage, I have it before my cat. I put it in the front flare, leading up to the cat element. Its been in there for about 8 months or so, I haven't lost one yet. I didn't even make that heat sink either....
Last edited by MadDog; 01-20-2006 at 11:23 PM.
01-21-2006, 12:05 AM
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Here it is!!!
So, let me explain.
First, I want to make it VERY clear that this set of runs represents a largely UN-TUNED MAP. I deliberately am running rich because I'm still cautious about the fuel system mods I just made. Also, I chickened-out and pulled the boost back to 6psi on the dyno. I'm running about 8 on the street. It was my first boosted dyno session and MM wasn't there to hold my hand so I was nervous. I just wanted to get this runner question answered, so like I said before, I rushed it, knowing I wasn't done tuning for my new injectors.
The first graph has the two dyno runs. Run 1 was forcing the runners closed, run 2 is with normal operation of the APV motor. It doesn't take a genious to see that the runners open is a good thing! The power definitely falls off even though the boost curve is much flatter with the runners closed. So, there is the answer! The turbo is flowing less mass with the runners closed.
The second graph has my stock NA curve for comparison.
What a joke! Even with the richness of the boosted map, the total gains are really nice. This, my NA friends, is why you should stop wasting money on NA mods and go boosted! Sorry this one is versus speed instead of RPM. At the time I did that run, we hadn't yet found a good wire for the inductive pickup. It couldn't follow the RPM at all.
Now, the one thing that I didn't get to try that would be neat is to force them open the whole time. That motor just gets power when it needs to open or shut the runners. The polarity of the power is what determines open vs close. All you would need to do is to manually provide the power in the opening direction for less than two seconds (or you risk burning out the motor). Then, you just disconnect the motor, leaving the runners in the open position. Easy enough to do, and the service manual has everything there. I'll leave that to someone else to document. I'm not making any more trips to the dyno before I have leaned my MAP out a bit!
I might just try it tomorrow without going to the dyno to see if my *** can tell the difference, but I doubt it will. I am a little concerned that the additional airflow would make things too lean. But, you could just tune for it. Playing guinea pig is starting to take its toll on my nerves, though!!
BTW: any thoughts on why these curves are so rough?
So, let me explain.
First, I want to make it VERY clear that this set of runs represents a largely UN-TUNED MAP. I deliberately am running rich because I'm still cautious about the fuel system mods I just made. Also, I chickened-out and pulled the boost back to 6psi on the dyno. I'm running about 8 on the street. It was my first boosted dyno session and MM wasn't there to hold my hand so I was nervous. I just wanted to get this runner question answered, so like I said before, I rushed it, knowing I wasn't done tuning for my new injectors.
The first graph has the two dyno runs. Run 1 was forcing the runners closed, run 2 is with normal operation of the APV motor. It doesn't take a genious to see that the runners open is a good thing! The power definitely falls off even though the boost curve is much flatter with the runners closed. So, there is the answer! The turbo is flowing less mass with the runners closed.
The second graph has my stock NA curve for comparison.
What a joke! Even with the richness of the boosted map, the total gains are really nice. This, my NA friends, is why you should stop wasting money on NA mods and go boosted! Sorry this one is versus speed instead of RPM. At the time I did that run, we hadn't yet found a good wire for the inductive pickup. It couldn't follow the RPM at all.Now, the one thing that I didn't get to try that would be neat is to force them open the whole time. That motor just gets power when it needs to open or shut the runners. The polarity of the power is what determines open vs close. All you would need to do is to manually provide the power in the opening direction for less than two seconds (or you risk burning out the motor). Then, you just disconnect the motor, leaving the runners in the open position. Easy enough to do, and the service manual has everything there. I'll leave that to someone else to document. I'm not making any more trips to the dyno before I have leaned my MAP out a bit!
I might just try it tomorrow without going to the dyno to see if my *** can tell the difference, but I doubt it will. I am a little concerned that the additional airflow would make things too lean. But, you could just tune for it. Playing guinea pig is starting to take its toll on my nerves, though!!BTW: any thoughts on why these curves are so rough?
Last edited by MadDog; 01-21-2006 at 11:42 AM.
01-21-2006, 11:04 AM
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Here's a couple of ideas:
1) can the APV motor be rigged to an analog output from the e01? I know it has one, but I haven't looked at it closely yet.
2) the PCM cycles the APV when you shut down. I suppose you could try the 'always on' configuration by waiting until the PCM cycles open, then quickly removing the connector before it cycles closed! I don't know what this would do to non-boosted driving, though.
1) can the APV motor be rigged to an analog output from the e01? I know it has one, but I haven't looked at it closely yet.
2) the PCM cycles the APV when you shut down. I suppose you could try the 'always on' configuration by waiting until the PCM cycles open, then quickly removing the connector before it cycles closed! I don't know what this would do to non-boosted driving, though.
01-21-2006, 11:31 AM
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Very conclusive results. Thanks alot for providing them!
Leaving them open all the time would definitely not be good for non boosted driving. You'd loose intake velocity.
Leaving them open all the time would definitely not be good for non boosted driving. You'd loose intake velocity.
Last edited by rkostolni; 01-21-2006 at 05:34 PM.
01-21-2006, 11:40 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
Its turbo. There is no VDI.
the only thing that happens at 7250 is that the VDI opens to cross connect the intake tracts. so essentially at 7250 he starts to use part of the tract that he wasnt using by keeping the APV closed at 6500. unless there is some other explanation?
01-21-2006, 11:50 AM
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The VDI doesn't increase the flow to the engine. It only connects those two runners for the resonace effect. The opening of the tertiary runners does result in more mass flow rate to the engine. Hence, the power increases a little and holds steady, rather than falling off. Even though the turbo can't maintain pressure when the tertiary runners open, the flow rate is increased because, as we now know, the restriction in the system (at least at higher RPM) is the area of the intake, not the area of the turbo inlet.
The AFR curves also show the increased air flow. When the tertiary runners open, things stay on target. With them closed, the A/F goes down, indicating not enough air is entering the chamber. I re-posted that graph to only include two runs. Take a look at the new one for a little clarity on the AFR curves.
The AFR curves also show the increased air flow. When the tertiary runners open, things stay on target. With them closed, the A/F goes down, indicating not enough air is entering the chamber. I re-posted that graph to only include two runs. Take a look at the new one for a little clarity on the AFR curves.