GaMEChld

Should it even be put into the thread? I think that thread is for reasonable driving. I don't think we're supposed to drive around with 414whp, it was just a fun benchmark. The MM/BHR kit is listing its reasonable levels of power, not its all time highest dyno runs.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Ok, pretty soon this will be "reasonable" for Esmeril Racing anyways...

Also, I believe that if one single other company amongst all that provide dyno charts claims that they decided not to post their highest hp dyno sheet, that shouldn't affect the other X# of companies that are providing Dyno charts. If that is the way the thread is going to be handled then it is a flawed/one-sided thread..... otherwise it would be called the "Reasonable Dyno Comparison Thread"...

Its actually quite convenient to portray things this way.....and we would have to find a lot of "reasonable" dynos from all the other FI products out there that are not the highest attained on each particular kit.....
"Reasonable" is relative, it is not "reasonable" to have a greddy kit at 10psi+ based on the fact that many people broke engines at way less than that and the boost always falls below that when you get up in the RPM range which quickly kills your turbo... Exactly what is reasonable? When we get to 600whp 2 years down the road, will 400whp be reasonable then?

Sometimes I just don't get it....There is a huge "want" factor regarding 400whp on a renesis and a benchmark is set and 2-3 years later when a company finally actually reaches it and provides proof then its not practical, and its not "reasonable" and so lets handicap everyone else...this is unbelievable to me.

Bottom line is....we gave you a 400whp+ Renesis...Period!


Chris

Derex'8

iTrader: (4)

AMEN!!!!!


Your a pioneer chris....

GaMEChld

I suppose you do have a point there Chris. I meant no slight, as I have your kit and would like nothing more than to have the added prestige. I guess the first step would be to get a good dyno readout with HP/TQ vs RPM and stuff so it can be added to the comparison thread. Maybe by then you will be able to perfect that high end tune.

Do you have any comment on the question about timing a few posts ago?

Oh, and did you happen to get my last PM by the way on 11/4 2:09PM?

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I know you meant no slight, it wasn't directed at you specifically, I just know that that's how things work on this forum sometimes and I wanted to take the opportunity to address it now that you brought it up.

As for timing...I don't remember off the top of my head but I think it was like 6-8 degrees advance on the leading above 14psi.

About your PM, I though I had answered all of them, I will go and look, I might have missed it.

Best regards,

Chris

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

Um i know that thread has been sitting in the corner for a while now, but when it was being constantly updated it WAS a highest published numbers thread....

there was never a "only reasonble power level dyno's accepted" clause. MM didnt publish his highest dyno's for his own reasons, and therefore only included what he DID publish in the thread. He wasnt the only one with higher numbers that were unpublished at the time, not by any means.

fixed for you Chris
*i mean in the sense that your everyday owner couldnt get in the car and be comfortable and capable of driving that kind of power in the car on the streets. To me streetable isnt what you or I or some other so called "enthusiast" could find acceptable to drive, its what you could put any random Joe in and feel safe. If random Joe Driver isnt comfortable/capable of driving it on the streets safely, then it takes a unique amount of experience or practice etc....
If you didnt stick to some sort of reasoning like this, you could say that a Formula or Nascar is streetable. You and I may not be able to pull it off, but i bet there are people that could....

just poking at you :P doesnt take ANYTHING away from what you've done and shown here

GaMEChld

Oh when I originally said something about it being practical I didn't mean I thought the power wasn't streetable. That's all driver dependent I believe.

What I meant about practical was concerning how long the engine would last at that level. For example, if you push the kit to 400WHP, but the car only could last a day driving around with those settings, then I would say its not practical, because no one would do that knowing they'd blow there engine under 1000 miles of use.

Please understand I'm not saying it's NOT practical, just pointing out what I meant in terms of questioning the practicality. Not the power, the reliability. And I am very open to hearing ideas about how sustainable that kind of power is, I'm not saying I know anything. Cuz I don't know anything

blackenedwings

I think that is what most people are thinking about long term... it's awesome that you guys broke 400 whp with a Renesis. It's something people have been wanting to see for a long time and I think overwelmingly the comments have reflected admiration for that feat. That being said, can the car run around at that psi with 400+ whp and not blow itself sky high within 1000 miles?

What most of us are hoping is that Esmeril will keep pushing now that they have reached the 400+ mark and make that reliable and streetable. If I could get 400+ whp for a street Rx8 with a reasonable assurance I wasn't going to explode my engine I would definitely be interested. So, congrats on the benchmark, now get back to work! :D

GaMEChld

I'm still keeping an eye out for their new apex seals their website says they are working on. They sound like just what the doctor ordered for reliable high power.

cheeto

well if you get upgraded apex seals, you might as well upgrade all the other seals too.

GaMEChld

What if we fabricate a replacement engine out of.... IRIDIUM!

cheeto

i would rather have an all aluminum alloy engine.

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

i am pretty sure that the apex seals arent the weak point, the side seals are. that doesnt mean the apex's can't get better, but from everything i've read its the side and possibly the corner seals that are the weak link.

GaMEChld

can that take the heat? What's the normal engine made of? I thought I heard iron or something.

Red Devil

Tear down a few blown FI Renesis engines and your opinions listed above will probably change.

GaMEChld

And even if the side seals do go, are they as apt to wreck the whole engine like the apex seals are? I heard those are hard and fragment scratching the entire engine up when they blow. But if you are rebuilding the engine anyway, I guess you might as well put fresh seals in the other places (unless thats some how much harder than it sounds)

PBlue

iTrader: (1)

Steel Iron and Aluminum.

Red Devil

I won't state my experience covers the depth of everything that can or may break, but from what I've seen - and I've torn down some engines that experienced detonation that shattered the apex seals into multiple pieces - the side seals are usually in pretty good shape, as are the corner seals. The springs underneath both, however, are heavily carboned and in some places stuck. The blown apex seals tore into the housings making them throw-away parts.

All that stated, while stronger seals may give more margin for error - there is no magic pill. Reliability is gained through conservative tuning, and realistic power expectations based on the hardware being employed.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

The weak point actually is the apex seal. For many reasons.

I am not saying that it is not possible to break a side seal without breaking an apex seal, but they both break for different reasons and the apex seals will go first unless it is an extremely weird/lucky apex situation. The side seal has way less hangout into the explosion than the apex seal has, they receive the grunt of the pressure/heat from the explosion. The stock apex seals are too brittle so they cant take any detonation. On the Renesis it is rare to break side seals, normally you break the apex seal first. It also has to do with the fact that the apex seal sees way more dramatic changes in temperature, one side of the apex seal is extremely cold with the intake charge(cold by engine standards) and one side is extremely hot with the explosion of the next chamber, not to mention all the pressure it feels from the hot side. This is a cycle that occurs about 44 times a minute to each particular apex seal at 8000rpm. The material Mazda uses is great at not conducing heat, keeping these temp changes at the surface, not allowing them to get into the apex seal, it basically sits at an average temp the whole time. To be able to handle this environment mazda started with a certain material and put it through and extreme hardening process which made it extremely brittle. This is fine for N/A but when you introduce F/I and possibility of detonation/pre-ignition you end up with an apex seal that can easily chip because it is not meant to deal with impact and when it does chip it destroys the interior components of the engine. The trick is to make apex seals starting out with a material that already is close to the hardness that you need to have in its untreated state and only do a small amount of heat treating to get to a higher Rockwell than stock but at the same time keeping the apex seal "relaxed". This will make it less brittle and it will warp before chipping if induced to extreme heat caused by lean conditions or detonation but it will take more heat and detonation than the stock ones to cause them to warp and when they do, you will loose power but your engine will not get destroyed and you will just need to throw a new set in instead of buying rotors, housings and plates etc not to mention that when this happens they will prevent breakage of a side seal. Because the material is stronger though, this will take a lot more than most people will throw at the Renesis.

This all begs the question of "if it is so great why didn't Mazda do it like this from the get go?" and the answer is simple enough; If their current apex seals can take the required "design load" plus the required safety factor and they can make them quicker/easier out of a softer material that then is easily heat treated in bulk to the correct hardness specs, why go through the trouble of making them out of something that will be harder to manufacture and will take 5 times as long to make? It will add unnecessary cost to the apex seals, and automakers are all about saving costs, they do what they have to to meet specs.

Lets just say that Apex seals cannot be machined or ground because they will crack/break through the surface imperfections left behind by these methods. They must be made by special methods that leave no surface imperfections...

Hope this helps you guys understand what the flaw in the Renesis is....

Chris

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

+1

Conservative tunning is key, the best apex seals in the world will not make up for lack of fuel or too much advance. They are meant to give you a buffer for you to react should you reach detonation unlike the stock ones which just break as soon as it happens.

Chris

cheeto

thats what im saying.

aluminum alloys have sooooooo much potential, as pretty much all other metal alloys do, but in order to get great strength and heat capacity, the metals mixed with aluminum can be rather expensive.

solito

Represent Chris!!!

ssspeedfreak

iTrader: (1)

Chris any word on that TQ curve sheet? Also have you guys tried to duplicate the same numbers as the current highest one? Is the interceptor x you use locked, could you use the cobb unit instead?

BDC

Now that I know it's a full T4 turbo, nice work Chris! A bit of room for improvement but great stuff. I always knew this Renny motor could do this. Looks like you're the first.

B

lepichichi

iTrader: (10)

Damn guys now i have to save money to buy my turbo set up