$20k project - YOURE HIRED
03-12-2010, 02:18 AM
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$20k project - YOURE HIRED
I just bought my first rx8 a couple months ago, with modifying in mind, my knowledge of working on a wankel is very limited. I am currently deployed, and upon my return home I have dedicated 20k to my 2004 rx (6spd).
I want some help, I figure that there are people on here that have infinite knowledge of how to squeeze this lemon for every drop its worth, so here is my propostion, spec it, ill build it. $20k is a guideline, if need be I can put much more in, just figured it would give me a starting point. here are some of the things I am trying to get from it
400 whp - I know the SFR turbo kit at 9 psi can put down 330 alone so I dont figure this is too much to ask but work with me, educate me.
I refuse to eng swap. I know how revered the 13b REW is and I considered it, but thats cheating! I want to use existing power plant, not to mention I dont think the budget will allow.
Most of the work will be done by me, with the exception of fabrication which I am limited on.
and for the short answer turds who know it all and want to tread on my project, stay out of it, I am trying to make a fun project and include other enthusiasts. THanks all!
I want some help, I figure that there are people on here that have infinite knowledge of how to squeeze this lemon for every drop its worth, so here is my propostion, spec it, ill build it. $20k is a guideline, if need be I can put much more in, just figured it would give me a starting point. here are some of the things I am trying to get from it
400 whp - I know the SFR turbo kit at 9 psi can put down 330 alone so I dont figure this is too much to ask but work with me, educate me.
I refuse to eng swap. I know how revered the 13b REW is and I considered it, but thats cheating! I want to use existing power plant, not to mention I dont think the budget will allow.
Most of the work will be done by me, with the exception of fabrication which I am limited on.
and for the short answer turds who know it all and want to tread on my project, stay out of it, I am trying to make a fun project and include other enthusiasts. THanks all!
03-12-2010, 06:31 AM
#3
What is a 20b Renesis? A side port 20b?
The rx8 Renesis isn't ideal for boost applications. Many will disagree with me because they're running boosted applications just fine. But my grounds for this is that mazda dropped a turbo for the rx8 for a reason.
That said, a full engine swap is going to be what you're looking for. A twin turbo 13b out of 3rd gen Rx7 or a proper 20b.
Both of these will require massive amounts of modification and fabrication.
Or, you can go with a decent turbo set-up and upgrade the supporting systems of the renesis. It won't get you to the 400HP mark (probably). But it'll be a good project and be cheaper than a full swap.
Turbo kit, ignition, tuning device and tuner, intercooler, intake, exhaust system, etc... Could upgrade your seals and get your engine rebuilt also, which could be wise. That above list would be close to 10-15k right there.
If I had 20k to put into my car and wanted HP, that is the route I would go. I would worry about an engine swap being done properly by professionals costing more than 20k unless you're very very knowledgable about both the chassis and the 20b or 13b, and you've admitted that you're not.
I would follow someone else turbo build just to be on the safe side...
But, I issue this as a disclaimer... I'm not a turbod car, and very little experience with turbod cars and even less experience with turbos rotaries.
Before you do anything, I would continue to do as much research and read as much as you can about these topics. I would say a solid 2-3 months of just research.
The rx8 Renesis isn't ideal for boost applications. Many will disagree with me because they're running boosted applications just fine. But my grounds for this is that mazda dropped a turbo for the rx8 for a reason.
That said, a full engine swap is going to be what you're looking for. A twin turbo 13b out of 3rd gen Rx7 or a proper 20b.
Both of these will require massive amounts of modification and fabrication.
Or, you can go with a decent turbo set-up and upgrade the supporting systems of the renesis. It won't get you to the 400HP mark (probably). But it'll be a good project and be cheaper than a full swap.
Turbo kit, ignition, tuning device and tuner, intercooler, intake, exhaust system, etc... Could upgrade your seals and get your engine rebuilt also, which could be wise. That above list would be close to 10-15k right there.
If I had 20k to put into my car and wanted HP, that is the route I would go. I would worry about an engine swap being done properly by professionals costing more than 20k unless you're very very knowledgable about both the chassis and the 20b or 13b, and you've admitted that you're not.
I would follow someone else turbo build just to be on the safe side...
But, I issue this as a disclaimer... I'm not a turbod car, and very little experience with turbod cars and even less experience with turbos rotaries.
Before you do anything, I would continue to do as much research and read as much as you can about these topics. I would say a solid 2-3 months of just research.
03-12-2010, 07:11 AM
#4
What are your goals?
Hp figures alone are not useful. Track? Drag? Show? Dyno queen? Daily driver?
There are some different routes to consider, most of them will place you under the 400rwhp but the linear power delivery of our engine will show a very usable powerband that's worth more than top hp alone.
Hp figures alone are not useful. Track? Drag? Show? Dyno queen? Daily driver?
There are some different routes to consider, most of them will place you under the 400rwhp but the linear power delivery of our engine will show a very usable powerband that's worth more than top hp alone.
03-12-2010, 09:25 AM
#7
The first thing you should do is make certain that you have a good base to start from. Get the engine rebuilt by Mazmart. Let them know what your plans are and they will give you a price. There is no use spending all that money on something that is going to go boom. Once that is done, upgrade the brakes to make sure that you can stop.
That said, I wouldn't put that much money into a RX8. I would invest it or even buy a classic car.
That said, I wouldn't put that much money into a RX8. I would invest it or even buy a classic car.
03-12-2010, 10:11 AM
#9
I guess they didn't read the part where you said that you refuse to swap the engine lol. I have the same goals in mind and I think the best starting point for you is the Esmeril Racing Turbo Kit.
Esmeril Racing has already made over 400hp with this kit, with what I would consider minimal modification. With the cost of the kit, cost of tuning, and supporting mods like guages and what not, I would say you'd be in the $10k-$15k range.
And since you have an 04, I'd say make sure you run a compression test on the motor to make sue you're not going to blow the engine as soon as you turbo it lol. Maybe you could look into porting and rebuilding with some stronger apex seals. Im not sure on the cost of that tho. I would PM ChrisRX8PR to get more info on the cost of his build.
You can start by taking a look at these links. Best of luck!
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...esmeril+racing
http://www.esmerilracing.com/RX-8_Turbo_Kit.html
Esmeril Racing has already made over 400hp with this kit, with what I would consider minimal modification. With the cost of the kit, cost of tuning, and supporting mods like guages and what not, I would say you'd be in the $10k-$15k range.
And since you have an 04, I'd say make sure you run a compression test on the motor to make sue you're not going to blow the engine as soon as you turbo it lol. Maybe you could look into porting and rebuilding with some stronger apex seals. Im not sure on the cost of that tho. I would PM ChrisRX8PR to get more info on the cost of his build.
You can start by taking a look at these links. Best of luck!
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...esmeril+racing
http://www.esmerilracing.com/RX-8_Turbo_Kit.html
03-12-2010, 10:33 AM
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appreciate the investment advice, however, I am not on this site for that type of advice.
This is my daily driver, however, it is not my only vehicle therefore i have a bit more elbow room to go crazy with it. I am only giving some loose ideas of what I want.
If I do apex seals and lower compression, how much boost could I realistically push, of course with injectors etc?
apologize for length of time between posts, combat zones are getting nicer, but still hard to get to a computer sometimes.
This is my daily driver, however, it is not my only vehicle therefore i have a bit more elbow room to go crazy with it. I am only giving some loose ideas of what I want.
If I do apex seals and lower compression, how much boost could I realistically push, of course with injectors etc?
apologize for length of time between posts, combat zones are getting nicer, but still hard to get to a computer sometimes.
03-12-2010, 10:39 AM
#12
appreciate the investment advice, however, I am not on this site for that type of advice.
This is my daily driver, however, it is not my only vehicle therefore i have a bit more elbow room to go crazy with it. I am only giving some loose ideas of what I want.
If I do apex seals and lower compression, how much boost could I realistically push, of course with injectors etc?
apologize for length of time between posts, combat zones are getting nicer, but still hard to get to a computer sometimes.
This is my daily driver, however, it is not my only vehicle therefore i have a bit more elbow room to go crazy with it. I am only giving some loose ideas of what I want.
If I do apex seals and lower compression, how much boost could I realistically push, of course with injectors etc?
apologize for length of time between posts, combat zones are getting nicer, but still hard to get to a computer sometimes.
Best regards,
Chris
03-12-2010, 10:41 AM
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It is a labor of love, I am in love with the little wankel. I know how easily you can get power from piston eng's and I love the challenge, I am very new to the rotory, I have found that torque is not going to be something I can capitalize on like a v8 for instance, when you get into the mid-range rpm's that thing comes alive though.
Brings me to something else...Turbo vs. supercharger... and then with a turbo should I be going larger to accomidate for high rpm boost, or would I have more fun with a smaller turbo for the low rpm boost.
Forgive my ignorance guys, I am learning, I wont pretend to know all about what I am talking about. I appreciate the input it is really awesome.
My Goal by the end of this is to have a final spec laid out on this forum, let everyone chime in for last tweaks and then build it. It is your suggestions that build this. Money is not the issue really.
03-12-2010, 10:52 AM
#14
Turbo is currently the best option to get you to 400+WHP.
S/C is just breaking 300's ATM on the renny.
S/C is just breaking 300's ATM on the renny.
It is a labor of love, I am in love with the little wankel. I know how easily you can get power from piston eng's and I love the challenge, I am very new to the rotory, I have found that torque is not going to be something I can capitalize on like a v8 for instance, when you get into the mid-range rpm's that thing comes alive though.
Brings me to something else...Turbo vs. supercharger... and then with a turbo should I be going larger to accomidate for high rpm boost, or would I have more fun with a smaller turbo for the low rpm boost.
Forgive my ignorance guys, I am learning, I wont pretend to know all about what I am talking about. I appreciate the input it is really awesome.
My Goal by the end of this is to have a final spec laid out on this forum, let everyone chime in for last tweaks and then build it. It is your suggestions that build this. Money is not the issue really.
Brings me to something else...Turbo vs. supercharger... and then with a turbo should I be going larger to accomidate for high rpm boost, or would I have more fun with a smaller turbo for the low rpm boost.
Forgive my ignorance guys, I am learning, I wont pretend to know all about what I am talking about. I appreciate the input it is really awesome.
My Goal by the end of this is to have a final spec laid out on this forum, let everyone chime in for last tweaks and then build it. It is your suggestions that build this. Money is not the issue really.
03-12-2010, 05:43 PM
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Taking into consideration that this is a daily driver (10-15 miles a day regularly) will I blow my eng before the end of a year? I figure that to push the boost pressure neccessary to get to 400 whp it would be irresponsible not to do apex seals, which makes me want to take it further and completely rebuild. I have 55k on the eng right now. I want to have the platform immaculate. And even with this done, I want to know the reliability factor, is it ridiculous for me to expect this to last? -side note, I am not hard on my vehicles, I am not afraid to stretch their legs, but unlike many drivers, I know that you cant expect a vehicle to take continued abuse....its kinda like shaking a baby
03-12-2010, 10:42 PM
#16
and lower compression is possible. The only difference in the FC rotor's and FD is the compression ring, gas ring or whatever you want to call it. They changed the design a little at the corners but all in all.
You can have that ring machined into the FC rotor's for about 400 bucks. From there I'd get on the rx7 site and see what the best seal they say to get. There is a couple of unbreakable seals some are better then others.
But yes lower compression and good seals or since some are going to argue the FC won't fit. You can get unbreakable seals for the rx8. Just post on the rx7 site and you'll get company's that are well known for there quality that will sale you the seals.
From there a reliable turbo setup. The renesis can put out some high numbers..no doubt and be a daily driver...but one choke and the engine is gone.
If you all of a sudden had a boost leak and your electric boost controller doesn't respond right you could over boost resulting in a blown seal. But with unbreakables your more likely to crack a side iron or melt something then to break a seal.
I'm guessing here..but I'm going to say 90% of failure is due to a seal crapping out. So buy the best ones out there.
Oh and from my experience additive additive additive. You want the housings and irons to last you have to lube them up. If it runs more like a two stroke then it will last for a few years of abuse if not more. lol
By the way I had terrible luck with the motor. But that's my two cents.
oh and then we have to talk about the transmission...lol lets face it it's weak. If you do any hard or even quick shifting with the added power you'll be changing it within a few months. Took me a whole 2 weeks with my power...which last I knew was 320's at 8 pounds of boost. Then I was hitting 14...so I'm going to say easy 400's.
As far as the powerplant. It should hold up to I believe I was told 400 but that's talking doing launches and stuff at the track. If you don't have traction you don't have the stress.
There's so many things about this car to learn...but everything to learn is the most costly things. Transmission and engine.
Last edited by outinnowhere3193; 03-12-2010 at 10:55 PM.
03-13-2010, 01:41 AM
#18
and lower compression is possible. The only difference in the FC rotor's and FD is the compression ring, gas ring or whatever you want to call it. They changed the design a little at the corners but all in all.
You can have that ring machined into the FC rotor's for about 400 bucks. From there I'd get on the rx7 site and see what the best seal they say to get. There is a couple of unbreakable seals some are better then others.
But yes lower compression and good seals or since some are going to argue the FC won't fit. You can get unbreakable seals for the rx8. Just post on the rx7 site and you'll get company's that are well known for there quality that will sale you the seals.
From there a reliable turbo setup. The renesis can put out some high numbers..no doubt and be a daily driver...but one choke and the engine is gone.
If you all of a sudden had a boost leak and your electric boost controller doesn't respond right you could over boost resulting in a blown seal. But with unbreakables your more likely to crack a side iron or melt something then to break a seal.
I'm guessing here..but I'm going to say 90% of failure is due to a seal crapping out. So buy the best ones out there.
Oh and from my experience additive additive additive. You want the housings and irons to last you have to lube them up. If it runs more like a two stroke then it will last for a few years of abuse if not more. lol
By the way I had terrible luck with the motor. But that's my two cents.
oh and then we have to talk about the transmission...lol lets face it it's weak. If you do any hard or even quick shifting with the added power you'll be changing it within a few months. Took me a whole 2 weeks with my power...which last I knew was 320's at 8 pounds of boost. Then I was hitting 14...so I'm going to say easy 400's.
As far as the powerplant. It should hold up to I believe I was told 400 but that's talking doing launches and stuff at the track. If you don't have traction you don't have the stress.
There's so many things about this car to learn...but everything to learn is the most costly things. Transmission and engine.
You can have that ring machined into the FC rotor's for about 400 bucks. From there I'd get on the rx7 site and see what the best seal they say to get. There is a couple of unbreakable seals some are better then others.
But yes lower compression and good seals or since some are going to argue the FC won't fit. You can get unbreakable seals for the rx8. Just post on the rx7 site and you'll get company's that are well known for there quality that will sale you the seals.
From there a reliable turbo setup. The renesis can put out some high numbers..no doubt and be a daily driver...but one choke and the engine is gone.
If you all of a sudden had a boost leak and your electric boost controller doesn't respond right you could over boost resulting in a blown seal. But with unbreakables your more likely to crack a side iron or melt something then to break a seal.
I'm guessing here..but I'm going to say 90% of failure is due to a seal crapping out. So buy the best ones out there.
Oh and from my experience additive additive additive. You want the housings and irons to last you have to lube them up. If it runs more like a two stroke then it will last for a few years of abuse if not more. lol
By the way I had terrible luck with the motor. But that's my two cents.
oh and then we have to talk about the transmission...lol lets face it it's weak. If you do any hard or even quick shifting with the added power you'll be changing it within a few months. Took me a whole 2 weeks with my power...which last I knew was 320's at 8 pounds of boost. Then I was hitting 14...so I'm going to say easy 400's.
As far as the powerplant. It should hold up to I believe I was told 400 but that's talking doing launches and stuff at the track. If you don't have traction you don't have the stress.
There's so many things about this car to learn...but everything to learn is the most costly things. Transmission and engine.
Ok, I should've said it differently. Nothing is impossible, I just draw the line where parts needs to start being custom machined if a customer just wants a bolt on setup. You could also machine a billet rotor of whatever compression you want, but is it practical for someone that has little experience and just wants to buy parts and make the car his daily driver?
Best regards,
Chris
03-13-2010, 01:54 AM
#19
Ok, I should've said it differently. Nothing is impossible, I just draw the line where parts needs to start being custom machined if a customer just wants a bolt on setup. You could also machine a billet rotor of whatever compression you want, but is it practical for someone that has little experience and just wants to buy parts and make the car his daily driver?
Best regards,
Chris
Best regards,
Chris
that was silly polite!
just saying!
beers
03-13-2010, 02:32 AM
#20
One Shot One Kill
don't aim for 400, i'd just aim for 300 and make it reliable.
number don't mean a thing, usable number does, 300 with more across the whole range.
better clutch, better transmission, better seals, proper oil, proper spark and coils. remember, this car is meant to be taken into corners, not a drag strip.
number don't mean a thing, usable number does, 300 with more across the whole range.
better clutch, better transmission, better seals, proper oil, proper spark and coils. remember, this car is meant to be taken into corners, not a drag strip.
03-13-2010, 05:47 AM
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don't aim for 400, i'd just aim for 300 and make it reliable.
number don't mean a thing, usable number does, 300 with more across the whole range.
better clutch, better transmission, better seals, proper oil, proper spark and coils. remember, this car is meant to be taken into corners, not a drag strip.
number don't mean a thing, usable number does, 300 with more across the whole range.
better clutch, better transmission, better seals, proper oil, proper spark and coils. remember, this car is meant to be taken into corners, not a drag strip.
The more I here people tell me to be conservative, the more I feel challenged to push it further. I would be pissed to damage the car, but I also have the ability keep trying. I am fortunate enough not to have to wait on anything due to money constraint so if it goes bad, I learn. I appreciate the ideas, because I this is my first rotary eng.
The point of this thread, is, well, I will be a test dummy...I set a number that seemed reasonable for what I want to put into the car, I am willing to go to extremes to set this apart, even though that is hard to do, chris is getting 500hp out of his, does this not set him apart? I dont need to go that far, but I am sure there are things to get me to my goal that will make my setup stand out differently
Fabrication is not my strong point, but I will attempt or pay to have something specially done. This is the car that my son is going to beg for in 14 years from now to go to prom in (fat chance)... I want to show boat it around, occasionally embarrass a v8, and thats it. I dont need to justify being extreme by racing, I am an enthusiast, thats it.
03-13-2010, 09:01 AM
#23
Ok, I should've said it differently. Nothing is impossible, I just draw the line where parts needs to start being custom machined if a customer just wants a bolt on setup. You could also machine a billet rotor of whatever compression you want, but is it practical for someone that has little experience and just wants to buy parts and make the car his daily driver?
Best regards,
Chris
Best regards,
Chris
Honestly...when you talk reliably...lower compression and unbreakable seals is where you need to be. So IDK about you...if I was going to drop say 20K on my setup I think I'd make the engine as strong as possible.
Best possible thing for the motor to last is lower compression and better seals.
Plain and simple.
Let me ask you this...IF you had a 4 cylinder that had 10:1 compression and you was going to drop 20k would you leave the compression and stock rings or drop it down to 8.5:1 or so with some moly rings?? Lower compression with better seals is the best way to build this engine.
Following that water/meth injection would be a huge plus.
