Cobb Stage 1 Tune Unsafe?
01-19-2010, 01:04 AM
#76
FLAME ON!
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they may [B]have/B[] leaned it out some over the latest flashes, I'm remembering from a number of years ago
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...77&postcount=6
note the there are some critical intake valve operations taking place between 6500 - 7500 rpm, the tuning may not seem normal in these areas depending on how smooth you want those power transitions to be
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...77&postcount=6
note the there are some critical intake valve operations taking place between 6500 - 7500 rpm, the tuning may not seem normal in these areas depending on how smooth you want those power transitions to be
So looking at the map the og poster posted, how do we know he did not alter the map?
01-19-2010, 06:51 AM
#77
went back to srsly broke
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they may ahve leaned it out some over the latest flashes, I'm remembering from a number of years ago
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...77&postcount=6
note the there are some critical intake valve operations taking place between 6500 - 7500 rpm, the tuning may not seem normal in these areas depending on how smooth you want those power transitions to be
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...77&postcount=6
note the there are some critical intake valve operations taking place between 6500 - 7500 rpm, the tuning may not seem normal in these areas depending on how smooth you want those power transitions to be
01-19-2010, 12:03 PM
#79
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01-19-2010, 12:18 PM
#80
There are only two pages.
If there is something you want me to see, link it.
The RX-8 must be custom tuned.
If you feel lucky, run the OTS map. Doesn't matter to me.
I've tuned HUNDREDS of these cars. OTS NEVER works.
EDIT - You are TURBO and you are running an OTS calibration? lol
If there is something you want me to see, link it.
The RX-8 must be custom tuned.
If you feel lucky, run the OTS map. Doesn't matter to me.
I've tuned HUNDREDS of these cars. OTS NEVER works.
EDIT - You are TURBO and you are running an OTS calibration? lol
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-19-2010 at 12:21 PM.
01-19-2010, 12:50 PM
#81
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There are only two pages.
If there is something you want me to see, link it.
The RX-8 must be custom tuned.
If you feel lucky, run the OTS map. Doesn't matter to me.
I've tuned HUNDREDS of these cars. OTS NEVER works.
EDIT - You are TURBO and you are running an OTS calibration? lol
If there is something you want me to see, link it.
The RX-8 must be custom tuned.
If you feel lucky, run the OTS map. Doesn't matter to me.
I've tuned HUNDREDS of these cars. OTS NEVER works.
EDIT - You are TURBO and you are running an OTS calibration? lol
My car isn't turbo yet hehe, its still 100% bone stock. I just wanted to see what was different about the stage 1 map until I started making changes to the car. A stock car should be able to use the same map on every single car and work within a given range of the target. The only exception is if there is something wrong with a car like clogged injectors, fuel filters, bad fuel pump etc. but if that's the case, those things need to be taken care of instead of changing the map to compensate. Do you disagree?
thewird
01-19-2010, 03:43 PM
#82
A stock car should be able to use the same map on every single car and work within a given range of the target. The only exception is if there is something wrong with a car like clogged injectors, fuel filters, bad fuel pump etc. but if that's the case, those things need to be taken care of instead of changing the map to compensate. Do you disagree?
There is no good way to make an OTS "tuned" calibration for the RX-8 because there is so much variation in the feedback and input.
That is why there is so much variation in the logging of a stock calibration and why Mazda made it so "safe".
Cobb's OTS can't be fixed because they are not broken. They work perfectly, but only on the car they were created for and none other.
I have well over 300 calibrations out there for NA RX-8s. Way more than anybody, including Cobb. They are all totally different, some radically different.
Even on mostly or completely stock RX-8s, the variation in MAF calibration and lambda targets from car to car is staggering.
01-19-2010, 04:16 PM
#85
went back to srsly broke
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Hah! I was guessing that!
My only issue with the Cobb map is that they don't really have a universal map either. My map (when compared to the stock) is pretty much the same if not richer in certain areas. So that's not a bad map for me to run until I can buy the tunes from you, whereas wird's map is pretty lean to run for a long period of time assuming it is not customized for his car.
My only issue with the Cobb map is that they don't really have a universal map either. My map (when compared to the stock) is pretty much the same if not richer in certain areas. So that's not a bad map for me to run until I can buy the tunes from you, whereas wird's map is pretty lean to run for a long period of time assuming it is not customized for his car.
01-19-2010, 04:33 PM
#86
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I don't disagree - but you are talking about the stock Mazda calibration, which does work on every car.
There is no good way to make an OTS "tuned" calibration for the RX-8 because there is so much variation in the feedback and input.
That is why there is so much variation in the logging of a stock calibration and why Mazda made it so "safe".
Cobb's OTS can't be fixed because they are not broken. They work perfectly, but only on the car they were created for and none other.
I have well over 300 calibrations out there for NA RX-8s. Way more than anybody, including Cobb. They are all totally different, some radically different.
Even on mostly or completely stock RX-8s, the variation in MAF calibration and lambda targets from car to car is staggering.
There is no good way to make an OTS "tuned" calibration for the RX-8 because there is so much variation in the feedback and input.
That is why there is so much variation in the logging of a stock calibration and why Mazda made it so "safe".
Cobb's OTS can't be fixed because they are not broken. They work perfectly, but only on the car they were created for and none other.
I have well over 300 calibrations out there for NA RX-8s. Way more than anybody, including Cobb. They are all totally different, some radically different.
Even on mostly or completely stock RX-8s, the variation in MAF calibration and lambda targets from car to car is staggering.
thewird
01-19-2010, 04:37 PM
#87
What do you mean by "full boost"? I thought you just said you are N/A?
EDIT - I'm looking at the Cobb Stage 1 calibration right now and it "calls for" 12:1 - 13:1 at WOT and high RPM.
What you are actually getting is something else.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-19-2010 at 04:39 PM.
01-19-2010, 04:44 PM
#88
went back to srsly broke
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I think he means full load.
I'm just a little confused now - Are you saying at Lambda = 1, the engine is calling for 14.7, but yielding 13:1 because of the MAF calibration?
I'm just a little confused now - Are you saying at Lambda = 1, the engine is calling for 14.7, but yielding 13:1 because of the MAF calibration?
01-19-2010, 04:51 PM
#89
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Because that probably yielded 13:1 or so on the car it was developed on with its MAF calibration.
What do you mean by "full boost"? I thought you just said you are N/A?
EDIT - I'm looking at the Cobb Stage 1 calibration right now and it "calls for" 12:1 - 13:1 at WOT and high RPM.
What you are actually getting is something else.
What do you mean by "full boost"? I thought you just said you are N/A?
EDIT - I'm looking at the Cobb Stage 1 calibration right now and it "calls for" 12:1 - 13:1 at WOT and high RPM.
What you are actually getting is something else.
I took screenshots of a freshly downloaded Stage 1 2005 map. Someone else also posted a 2004 screenshot and it was the same. Have a look...
Stock
Stage 1 (2005 MT)
GTAW posted 2004 Stage 1 (MT)
thewird
Last edited by thewird; 01-19-2010 at 04:57 PM.
01-19-2010, 05:19 PM
#90
Yeah? So?
My point is that is what they dialed in to get the desired AFR.
The lambda chart is nothing by itself.
It relies on the other load tables.
Its not a gloat, but that is what I get paid for.
Its not that its superficially difficult, but it requires a native understanding of the interactions.
Just the fact that I need to explain it at all shows the value of that understanding.
In any event, do what you will and believe what you want. Just realize that this is the reason you don't get detailed explanations from "experts" - it isn't worth the effort.
My point is that is what they dialed in to get the desired AFR.
The lambda chart is nothing by itself.
It relies on the other load tables.
Its not a gloat, but that is what I get paid for.
Its not that its superficially difficult, but it requires a native understanding of the interactions.
Just the fact that I need to explain it at all shows the value of that understanding.
In any event, do what you will and believe what you want. Just realize that this is the reason you don't get detailed explanations from "experts" - it isn't worth the effort.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-19-2010 at 05:23 PM.
01-19-2010, 05:40 PM
#91
So this Rotary thing...?
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01-19-2010, 05:42 PM
#92
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Since the car doesn't utilize the o2 sensor for trimming fuel in open loop the fuel tables exist only as a modifier since there's no check to see if what you are getting is the actual air/fuel ratio your calling for.
As an example, I have areas of my fuel map that call for high 10's but produce 12's. This is why I laugh when I hear about people trying to "reverse engineer" AP maps because you cannot tell anything about how the tune interacts on the car what so ever.
This analysis of the Cobb stage 1 map is, in my opinion, beating a dead horse. The map is a general map and as Jeff stated all RX8's require custom maps. Just start with a stock map, take logs, make adjustments then rinse and repeat as necessary.
01-19-2010, 06:19 PM
#95
I zoom therefore I am.
01-19-2010, 09:56 PM
#96
went back to srsly broke
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There are various tables which work together to formulate the calculations that the PCM uses for fuel delivery. The target AFR is one of those tables.
Since the car doesn't utilize the o2 sensor for trimming fuel in open loop the fuel tables exist only as a modifier since there's no check to see if what you are getting is the actual air/fuel ratio your calling for.
As an example, I have areas of my fuel map that call for high 10's but produce 12's. This is why I laugh when I hear about people trying to "reverse engineer" AP maps because you cannot tell anything about how the tune interacts on the car what so ever.
This analysis of the Cobb stage 1 map is, in my opinion, beating a dead horse. The map is a general map and as Jeff stated all RX8's require custom maps. Just start with a stock map, take logs, make adjustments then rinse and repeat as necessary.
Since the car doesn't utilize the o2 sensor for trimming fuel in open loop the fuel tables exist only as a modifier since there's no check to see if what you are getting is the actual air/fuel ratio your calling for.
As an example, I have areas of my fuel map that call for high 10's but produce 12's. This is why I laugh when I hear about people trying to "reverse engineer" AP maps because you cannot tell anything about how the tune interacts on the car what so ever.
This analysis of the Cobb stage 1 map is, in my opinion, beating a dead horse. The map is a general map and as Jeff stated all RX8's require custom maps. Just start with a stock map, take logs, make adjustments then rinse and repeat as necessary.
01-20-2010, 12:42 PM
#97
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I honestly don't know how to respond to the above posts....
You know very well its screwed up, yet you don't care and blame it on working on the vehicle tested or "calibrations"? Have you even looked at the stage 1 map? The ONLY change in fuel is the table I have screenshoted. Every other table that effects fuel and the MAF calibration is 100% unchanged, a direct copy of the stock map. The only change is that fuel map, leading ignition (barely), and trailing ignition. No other changes are made to that map at all.
Leaving the benefit of the doubt, if what you say is true that the map worked on a specific car. Then that car must have had some fuel upgrades as the tendency for cars is to lose fuel capacity over time, not increase it. In which case it doesn't fall under the requirements of the map and should not be listed as such. The fact that you say the Stage 1 map doesn't work on any car, emphasizes this even more.
The above posts have left me really disappointed to a degree that I don't think you can understand...
thewird
You know very well its screwed up, yet you don't care and blame it on working on the vehicle tested or "calibrations"? Have you even looked at the stage 1 map? The ONLY change in fuel is the table I have screenshoted. Every other table that effects fuel and the MAF calibration is 100% unchanged, a direct copy of the stock map. The only change is that fuel map, leading ignition (barely), and trailing ignition. No other changes are made to that map at all.
Leaving the benefit of the doubt, if what you say is true that the map worked on a specific car. Then that car must have had some fuel upgrades as the tendency for cars is to lose fuel capacity over time, not increase it. In which case it doesn't fall under the requirements of the map and should not be listed as such. The fact that you say the Stage 1 map doesn't work on any car, emphasizes this even more.
The above posts have left me really disappointed to a degree that I don't think you can understand...
thewird
01-20-2010, 04:33 PM
#98
I don't know about you, but I don't really use Cobb stuff for the preloaded maps. I also know I didn't buy a Power FC for the base map!
Start with the stock fuel table and just lean it out a little at a time while checking AFR's. Some rpm ranges may be more prone to running lean due to the aux ports or VDI opening, be mindful of that. Your biggest problems on a stock Renesis are oil related... bad bearing lubrication (5W-20) and a bad OMP design. I wouldn't worry about detonation at all on an n/a setup, it takes a lot to cause that.
I know you're worried about the lean AFR's from the tune. But I'll go ahead and say that you could run that tune for a very long time and not notice any engine damage. It really takes a lot to damage an n/a.
Start with the stock fuel table and just lean it out a little at a time while checking AFR's. Some rpm ranges may be more prone to running lean due to the aux ports or VDI opening, be mindful of that. Your biggest problems on a stock Renesis are oil related... bad bearing lubrication (5W-20) and a bad OMP design. I wouldn't worry about detonation at all on an n/a setup, it takes a lot to cause that.
I know you're worried about the lean AFR's from the tune. But I'll go ahead and say that you could run that tune for a very long time and not notice any engine damage. It really takes a lot to damage an n/a.
01-20-2010, 04:41 PM
#99
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Neither did I but that doesn't mean the powerfc base map can't run every single stock fd out there that is in working condition even if it has an exhaust and an intake.
And yes I am worried about the lean afrs. I know an rx8 owner who runs in some endurance racing event and he tunes his own car. He was running high 13's and I suggested he not run so lean but he said the car ran better like that. Well a month later I saw him again with the motor out of his car. I asked what happened and he said the motor lost power. When I asked the builder what he thought happened, he said he was running too lean. The engine parts which were on the table had been destroyed and he needed to start with a new engine. I also noticed the exhaust ports were white. It may work fine for a bit but the exhaust heat from running that lean will eventually take its toll.
thewird
And yes I am worried about the lean afrs. I know an rx8 owner who runs in some endurance racing event and he tunes his own car. He was running high 13's and I suggested he not run so lean but he said the car ran better like that. Well a month later I saw him again with the motor out of his car. I asked what happened and he said the motor lost power. When I asked the builder what he thought happened, he said he was running too lean. The engine parts which were on the table had been destroyed and he needed to start with a new engine. I also noticed the exhaust ports were white. It may work fine for a bit but the exhaust heat from running that lean will eventually take its toll.
thewird
Last edited by thewird; 01-20-2010 at 05:23 PM.
