Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

Hey all,

I had the "L" reflash done last week (varified it as well), and today CZ sent me back my Stage 1 or now the "Stage 1.1"

I'm sad to say, that I've got problems. First of all, I'd want to say this is not a "bash" of CZ, so don't take it that way (we all appreciate his efforts).

Ok, my car runs fine with no Stage 1 and with Stage 1 turned off. Well, I reinstalled it at about 4:30 this afternoon and took it out for some runs. I'm not RotaryGod, but I'll "try" to explain what happened. Cruising along at about 4000 rpm's, 3rd gear, 40 mph, I get some open road and hammer on it (pedal near the floor). The car accelerates smoothly and strongly until I reach 6500 rpm. All hell seemed to break loose at this point, and I feel the car just "stop" accelerating, as though it lost ALL fuel. I hear a sound unlike any I've ever heard. My best description is a "clanging" or maybe a "rattling." Neither of those are accurate descriptions of the sound I heard. I took me a second or two to react and let off the throttle. The car just wouldn't go past this "sticking point," at 6500. It scared the shit out of me. This car is new and only has 1460 miles on it, so you can imagine what I'm thinking.

After letting off, it regained its composure and seemed to run fine again. Call me stupid, but I tried it again, a couple of times. And of the five or six times (accelerating from 4000 to 6500 or so, in 3rd gear), it did it twice more. I noticed this happen a couple of times previous to the 1.1 upgrade and the "L" reflash, and i sent my unit back thinking it was a "glitch."

I'm leery, disappointed, and frusterated at this point. Any input, questions, or answers are welcome. I'm just hoping, at this point, CZ will just let me return it for a credit. God, I hope so...

EDIT:

For those who don't want to read this whole thread or those who just don't "get it."
My car ran great from the day I picked it up. I did things in this order:

Installed Borla Exhaust, result, car runs fine. Month later, installed Green filter, result, car runs fine. Month later, installed Canzoomer Stage 1, result, multiple occurances of detonation. I removed the Stage 1, and sent it back to Maurice for fixing (updating). While my unit was with CZ, my car ran fine once again. I got the reflash, varified it, and result, the car runs fine. I received my Stage 1.1 back from CZ yesterday, installed it, result, detonation.

What about this aren't you understanding. THE ONLY TIME IT HAS EVER HAPPENED IS WITH THE STAGE 1 OR 1.1 INSTALLED!!!

:eek:

What was the weather like and what elevation do you live in?

Bright, sunny day, 46F degrees. Sea level.

mdw33333,

So to claify - you had this same reaction prior to the "1.1" and prior to the "L" flash but not every time? And now it happens all the time?

Yes it happened "on occasion" before the upgrade and the reflash. No, it doesn't happen everytime, now. I made a couple of smooth runs without it happening. I'm telling you, when it happens, trust me, something IS wrong.

That sounds a lot like what I experienced a while back. Except, I was trying on a new air intake. After installation of the new intake, I tried about 10 test runs. Accelerating from a rolling 2nd and onward to redline. Every time I hit 7,000 rpm, the car made this clanging sounds as if something had came loose in the engine. At the same time, there was a definite drop of power, which felt like something gave the car a violent tug. The engine never did throw a code while all these are happening.

I took the car to the dealer. And of course, they couldn't find anything wrong. At that time, my 8 had about 1,200 miles. It was a rainy day out.

Til today, I have not attempted to install an air intake.

I do have a Borla.

RXGuy, that "clanging sound as if something came loose in the engine" is a better description of what I experienced.

Could this sound come from the secondary ports? Maybe they are not opening or they are just flapping.

This would explain the noise and loss of power right?

I hate to use the dreaded word, but your description sounds possibly like detonation. That, plus the fact that if it did happen the ECU's knock sensor would trigger, would cause your power loss.

jds

detonation.

Re: Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

Are you sure you werent hearing detonation?

Detonation can have a " rattle" sound...or sharp ping sound.

What octane fuel were you using? Any CEL with the incident?

I would tend to assume you had a very lean, or too much ignition advance situation causing that sound. Based on your description.
Bad Bad Bad
In any case......I'd lay off the CZ for awhile.



EDIT..... all the detonation posts came all at once. sorry for sounding redundant

That is the mystery of it all. Whether it was detonation, which I agree that clanging noise did resemble, or the variable air duct valve not opening correctly, shouldn't the PCM register a code? I welcome any additional input anyone could provide.

Sorry mdw33333, I don't mean to hijack the thread. I also am waiting for my Stage 1 to return from CZ.

Maybe the L flash. I requested my dealer to install it because post said may increase mpg. It did, mine was one getting 13 to 16 mpg. A very noticable increase in first tank of gas but now I have MAJOR engine noise, like you are attempting to describe, as well as the engine sometimes cutting out at 4500 rpm when pushed hard.
I don't have the stage one but do have the RX8 store exhaust and a Green drop in filter. Had no problems for 1200 miles with these installed until the reflash. I'm not saying that all RX8's are not doing fine with the L flash.....it just doesn't agree with this 8.
Service dept said they will look into it in the morning and put the old program in if I want. He did say the filter and exhaust had nothing to do with my problems.

I had this noise this past sunday when I pushed it hard, like you did past 6k. I do not have the CZ1 installed. I had filled up 60+ miles earlier with BP 89. I immediately put in some shell 93 and it seemed to help. Tonight I put more 93 in and it has gone away.

It does sound like bad gas, or at least to low of an octaine?

detonation + ecu detuning due to info from knock sensor is the most likely scenario.

was your car fully warm? the engine has a lower (6500 rpm) electronic redline when the engine is not to operating temp. maybe a bad temp sensor?

Are you running the "L" flash?

Yes on the L flash. I have had the flash for a while but had never had this noise until I tried BP gas. At first I thought it could be the dampner vibrating but it did go away with better fuel.

I am running 92 octane gas, as I always do. The engine was warm, because I'd been cruising a awile. Someone please explain detonation to me, and what (if any) perminate damage may be done? By the way, no CEL was thrown.

I knew I shouldn't have f**ked with this thing. If I have problems from this point on, I'm going to flip out. I've already pulled the Stage 1.1. It's NOT going back in my car.

I can hear my wife now: "Why can't you leave well enough alone?"

Which plugs are you running? It shouldn't matter.. but I'm curious.

Detonation is premature combustion of air/fuel mixture. Its an uncontrolled burn, causing increased pressure within the combustion chamber that CAN cause harm if repeated.

This can be cause by many scenarios. A too lean condition will definately cause this. Along with too much ignition advance.

Temperature, barometric pressure, fuel octane...all have parts in causing detonation.

in older engines, a build up of deposits in the combustion chamber can raise the effective compression ratio.....making the the engine more prone to detonation.

The RX8 has a very good safety net agaist detonation. It has a ping sensor and has multiple ways to stop ping.....once its started.

If what you heard was in fact detonation....( I may not have been)...and it was only a few times......I wouldn't call the junk yard just yet....I'm sure its fine.

Thank you, I appreciate the info. After removing the Stage 1.1 a couple of hours ago, I took it for some "hard" runs. It was fine. I may not be the authority on ECU tuning, but this car runs MUCH better without this mod. It runs smoother, it sounds better, and even if it isn't, it feels faster. Bottom line... no more Stage 1.1

I am now kind of freaking out since I too am at sea level (as MDW333 is at sea level as well).

I took my car in tonight for work tomorrow morning and printed out TSB's and posts here saying I wanted the "L" flash.

My CZ stage 1 unit should be coming shortly. So now I'm not sure what to do- call the dealership and ask them to hold off on the flash? I wish Maurice was around to address some of these issues. Any guesses as to whether the variances are in fact due to altitude?

I hope that stage 1.1 is not causing these problems for you but your secondary ports ., keep us posted .
cheers
michael

mdw33333,

If you ask me, I think your detonating. DO NOT drive your car hard until you get an accurate A/F reading........An A/F reading is going to let you know if you’re running to lean. -----Just my two cents.

Unfortunately, that will take an investment.
He will have to get a wide band O2 sensor and have a bung for it welded into his exhaust system before the CAT.
The Lambda Boy's sensor is too frail for the very high EGTs of the Renesis, so an LM-1 at $350 plus whatever a muffler shop will charge to do the welding (probably about $60) is going to be the cheapest way to do that.

Welcome to the world of engine tuning.:D

The problem with piggy back computer is that it modifies the signal coming into the ECU by a ratio and then send it back to the ECU. The final value depends on the map of the ECU.

If the map in the ECU is not the same as what the piggy back is programmed for, you are going to have problems.

What you hear is detonation and a few of those will mean death of your engine.

If you are a new rotary owner, go onto the rx7club.com and learn more about the biggest enemy of rotary engine: Detonation.

It's possible the "L" reflash already has a leaner map to increase mileage and HP. Better mileage means leaner a/f mixture. If you use a piggy back computer to lean it some more, detonation can be expected.

I hope your engine is ok.

Chuck Huang

So I guess this means your nitrous install is going to be put on hold?

Yes, at this point, I'm hesitant to do anything. After posting these events last night, I took it for a late drive. I hammered on it in various gears and rpm ranges, and everything is fine with no Stage 1.1 installed. The car ran perfectly, no noises, no power loss. Thank God...

Glad to hear your car is better..

Have you heard from CZ at all yet? I'm curious to see a reply from him. I was just about to send my CZ 1 for replacement.

Yeah, he e-mailed me last night. He asked for my VIN# and asked what gas I was running. He was very understanding of my frustration and he is having me send back the unit for a full refund.

ECU tuning is a delicate procedure, obviously, and the Stage 1 eventually will be right. After further research and fine tuning (possibly different tuning for different altitudes) it should be fine. However, I'm just gonna stay stock for now.

Mdw3333, If you are in Ohio, are you really at sea level? I would guess you are maybe around 800-1000 ft above?

Not sure if that is enough difference to worry about since canzoomer is much higher, 3000 ft or so?

Rotary Extreme, I thought the piggyback unit used its own map and did NOT modify the mazda map. Early on we asked if new flashes would have any effect/problems and Canzoomer said no, for this reason.

Canzoomer told you he was considering different setups for different altitudes?? I hope he didn't tell you that!

Piggyback does not come with maps with fixed value. That's why it's called piggy back. Piggy back the stock ecu map.

If it comes with its own map with fixed value, it will be a standalone ECU such as Haltech, Motec, PFC, etc.

Chuck Huang

No, he didn't tell me that, but that's what it might come down to.

Hey, I just checked with Fed Ex and my unit is to be delivered today. Don't know if I will have time to get it on tonight after work but I darn sure will try. I really would like to see the results before I have to leave for the week. and I know it may help settle some nerves if mine works ok. If it doesn't?

I am pretty much at the same altitude as Mdw3333 so it will be interesting.

I will post results asap. If I don't get it on, I'll also let you know.

I thought the lower you are, the richer the mixture is? or is that the richer it needs to be.

I'm at sea level, had my car upgraded to L yesterday and my 1.1 should be here any minute now. As soon as it's here I'll throw it in and go for a drive, but so far the car hasnt done any odd noises. Only drove it about 70 miles on the L map so far.

Im in florida, is this see levil?

My car was fine before the L map, and fine after it. This detonation (in my car) is definitly related to the Stage 1.1. No doubt about it.

OK, put in the stage1.1 and tested it real quick with no problems at all. Very hard to notice the stage1 since the powerband has been smoothed out considerably, but the car is way quicker than before.

IMO, much better than the surge from before in regards to driving feel as I prefer smooth over peaky. Got some driving to do today for work, but I will hopefully get the gtech runs in either tonight or tomorrow.

So it looks like a problem with only one Stage 1.1 and "L" flash combination and we don't know what the exact problem is yet right?

Vince

PLEASE READ !!

DETONATION AND/OR PRE-IGNITION WILL NOT CAUSE IMMEDIATE, IRREPARABLE DAMAGE TO YOUR CAR!
REPEAT WILL NOT!
While detonation isn't good for your motor, all of that doom and gloom is mostly reserved for those with a turbocharged B13.
If you detect detonation or pre-ignition, immediately release the throttle and allow the car to coast for a second or two in gear.
Approach the conditions that led to the noise with caution in the future, but understand that it will not be like a bomb going off inside the Renesis.

and for those that said the car didn't light the cel - the car does not always light the cel but it will store a code. when you have some time take it to the dealer and ask them to look for codes. tell them the cel lit and went out or something. also they can run diagnostics to comfirm a/f and other items. they did to mine yesterday as a way to show me that i didn't need a relash. everything was operating within normal parameters and i had no codes stored.

Genom has the L flash, and 1.1 as do some other people. The problem is not consistent across the board..

Genom, do you have an upgraded exhaust? I I have the borla, stock intake and l flash and are about to send my Stage I in for replacement.

Very good point, my car didnt light a CEL but I did have an O2 sensor problem.

Is this with or without the "L" flash?

Just curious could the problem be with the green filter?

It seems that the Renesis doesn't like aftermarket intake mods.

Sorry. Boy, this is a fast-moving board!

yeah the maf is very sensitive and intakes and filters have already been shown to cuase maf related problems.

or i guess should say the ecu is very sensitive to input from the maf.