I was the first on this forum to have the "Green Filter" months ago. I've been running it with no problems, had the reflash, still no problems. After the Stage 1... problems...

This detonation issue has never once occurred without the Stage 1 or 1.1 installed. That's the bottom line here.

Yeah, I have a Greddy exhaust. Stock intake as well.

I redlined it a whole bunch of times right now that I was out for a bit and didnt hesitate at all. Car feels very strong and it's much easier to break the rear end loose. It definitely feels a lot stronger down lower in the 3000RPM range.

So if you replace the stock filter and Stage 1.1 and have no problems is it still an issue with CZ's mod? Or would you blame the Green Filter?

As I have said -- you don't know enough to make the presumptions you are making. It may be a combination of factors -- it may be a faulty CZ unit -- it may have been improper installation -- it may have been ...

Well, no.
The bottom line is that a confluence of the CZ box, the newest PCM flash and, perhaps, other unidentified factors have led to what we are assuming is detonation based on your description of the issue.
Though it is unlikely that the air filter is contributing, it is a factor that shouldn't be ignored.
The possibility that you have bad gas (ie - performing below rated octane or over-oxygenated) is a very significant contributing factor.

Once again, I'd like to reiterate that you need to try some known good, high-octane gas and report back.

Let's assume for the moment that you're having detonation problems, which seems likely. From what you have said you can not say the problem lies solely with canzoomer's chip.

Hypothetical example:
Let's say the stock engine runs at 90 "units". It takes 100+ units to reach detonation. If each change (filter, L-flash, canzoomer's chip) adds 4 units, then any two will be fine. It's only when you add the third that the entire system goes past 100. Therefore saying the problem is entirely caused by the last item added isn't correct. All you can say is all three in combination caused a problem.

Keep in mind that is a hypothetical example but should serve to illustrate what other people mean when they say you can't conclusively prove it's the canzoomer chip at this point. You'd have to experiment by removing the filter and only using the L-flash and chip.
________
VAPIR NO2 VAPORIZER

If A then B
If A then C
Can you conclude:
If B then C?

No. Is does not follow.

Hey guys, mine is sitting on my desk right now. No paperwork, instructions, packing list, nothing. But there is the little foam pieces used to block some holes. I know I can look at the installation thread but a hardcopy would be nice, and expected.

Next question, and someone else pointed this out, there is no label on the switch. Which way is off & on??

I'm no RotaryGod, but I've been in the automotive industry for ten years. I'm damn capable of istalling this mod. Hell, at this point, I can do it with my eyes closed. Your "combination of factors" theory is valid, however, when designing it, didn't CZ take into consideration that guys would do intake upgrades? I'm sure he did, but judging by what occurred in my car, there are obvious "glitches" left to be dealt with on the Stage 1 and now the Stage 1.1

The straight line represents "ON." The circle with the line through it represents "OFF."

By the way, for those interested, I've been running 92-93 octane since I bought this car. The gas I'm currently running is from Speedway.

If there's no marking, it's on when it's toward the short, or "back" end (where there's an additional screw).

I simply saved the posted pictorial instructions to the desktop of my laptop; they are quite good. Re the initial step of detaching the plastic screw holding down some wires before you open the ECU box, just pry the secrew up with a flat blade rather than trying to compress the bottom of it with a pliers. Also re the side clips on the box, a little WD40 helps get them apart. Mating and unmating the plastic parts without cracking anything is the only real time-eater.

Ok, I re-read the instructions and it is pretty simple. I think it would be a good idea to have made 'plugs/caps' for the unused ports on the stage1 unit.

But I hope to have it in and running by 6:30 tonight and will report back.

Better slow down a bit fellas...

mdw3333 reports trouble with "clank". Thinks its stage 1. RXGuy had "clank" when using aftermarket filter, no stage 1. hav runs a green filter and aftermarket exhaust with "L" and experienced the "clank". SeaRay had the "clank" with "L" and midgrade gas. Bit early to hook your horse to stage 1.1 being the problem. . Canzoomer and others report smooth operation with "L" and stage 1. Seem like there are quite a few out there with stage 1 or stage 1.1 without troubles.

Not sure you are right on this, or at least things may have changed. The switch needs to be moved closed to the big electrical connector (rear of car) to be on stage 1. On my unit, there are two positions to the switch. With the switch to the rear (correct) position, no symbol is exposed. Switched to the front (stage one off) away from the large white connector, the unit is back to running stock and has what looks like a circle with a line through it exposed.
BTW... You mentioned in an earlier post that your car is stronger without the stage 1 mod, runs smoother and stronger without the mod. With all the folks saying the stage 1 is the cats meow, it sure makes me wonder if you might have a bad unit?

Ok, the car (to me) runs smoother without the mod. The car (to me) SEEMS stronger without the mod. Dyno and gtech readings have shown this mod increase hp, and I'm not debating that. Hell, thats why I bought the damn thing. But, (and this is a big BUT) the car (to me) just doesn't feel faster with the mod.

It's been hard for me to sometimes put into words my assessment of this mod's effects on therunning of this car. I can only say that I don't care for the way it sounds or runs with the mod. I say that leaving the detontation issue out of the equation. Factor in the detonation issue, and it's definitely, bye, bye Stage 1.

No problem there mdw3333, I think I would do the same if I were you. You would have to have a VERY forgiving wife and a lot of dough if you can afford to dump your engine playing around looking for a dash of power. I for one am hoping you got stuck with a bad unit. What are the flys in the ointment to me are the couple of other folks reporting the "clang" when not even running stage 1.

What do you mean when you say you don't like the way it sounds with stage 1 turned on? I can't tell any difference in the sound.

Well, it definitly took a "bite" out of my exhaust note. I kinda like the louder note. It's not obnoxious, but it sounds "throatier" without the mod.

Yeah, my wife has had issues with me and this car since I got it and started mods on it. She is aware of this latest news with the Stage 1, and I'm hearing "I told you so," from her.

Found this old post from Canzoomer;
Snip>>>>>>
One thing to be careful of:

A couple of people who installed the K&N have told me about issues with rough running.

Apparently the intake is being disturbed and producing turbulence. This , in turn, is causing the MAF to get some varying readings.

I am REALLY nervous about this, so I request people NOT use the Stage1 kit with the K&N until we have had a chance to test one with it under some instrumentation.

Thanks!
END of Snip>>>>>>>>>>>

hmmm.....
Mdw runs green filter
RXguy runs aftermarket filter
SeaRay filter????
hav uses green filter

So we have:
One running the stage 1
three using the "L" update
three using an aftermarket filter.

I would definitely have the dealership check for codes and run some diagnostic tests.
If it was happening before the flash and stage 1.1 then something is wrong with your car. Stage 1.1 may just be intensifying the problem, since the it changes the fuel maps.
Could be the intake ports not opening at the higher RPMs.

mdw33333 sorry to hear about your trouble. I would have to agree with Adrian that you probably need to check your car, as it may have other issues that are intensifying with the use of CZ stage 1 or 1.1.
It is also very reassuring to know that Maurice is standing behind his product, and isreturning your money back. For some of us who had the pleasure of speaking with him, we know that he won't let his customers down. Before arriving to conclusions I wish we all take one step back, and wait for CZ's response. I am sure he is looking into it. While this board is an excellent tool to find information, but it sure can ruin someone's career in a second. mdw3333 I am truely sorry for what happened to you, and I do understand your fears and concerns. For the rest, let's wait for CZ's answer, and as for me I still want mine, and is still waiting for it, and I have full confidence that CZ will back me up.
Good luck to all

Mark

MAF MAF MAF. problems always seem to come back to the MAF. at least that is the way it seems to me.

DITTO

As most of us all have total faith in Maurice and his stage 1;1 .

If one unit is not working correctly, in a modified rx8 with intakes , different exhausts , possible crappy petrol does not make a product redunded .

Be patient all will be revealed .( Grasshoopers )

cheers
michael

OK. so you DIDN"T have any problems before stage 1 or 1.1?
Could be faulty unit or the combinations of 1.1 w/ other stuff (intake/ reflash (which CZ had no problems with).
Or may be the intake/MAF on the 8, since it seems very sensitive.

Have to wait for other users and their experiences.

I am confused due to the above two statements :confused:

Did it or did it not happen :

1) BEFORE "L" reflash
2) BEFORE "L" reflash + CZ1.1

Re: Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

I'm thinking it happened "occassionaly" after installing stage 1, with no L reflash. And it's doing it more often AFTER L flash and Stage 1.1 upgrade.

Is this correct mdw33333?

Ok folks, I have stage1.1 installed. It runs without clanking. A obvious kick in the pants. Above 6k it feels like I have a turbo kicking in. Seems like it has more torque in the lower rpm range because my shifts are jumpier than normal. I did a test drive with, and without, then back on again. It does sound different with it on, more whine, higher pitch to the motor. I did think I could here some pinging but it was at lower rpm vs higher.

I will take it to my service guy before driving it any harder and have it checked out just to make sure all is ok. But this will have to wait a couple weeks.

As for the installation, well like they say, its tight getting all the wires plugged back in. And even tighter getting the cover back on. I am not sure if I got it to seal 100% but I think so. And I did break off the switch while trying to get the lid snug, however by using the screw driver I could slide it on and off just fine. Actually a safer way since it doesn't stick out and risk being moved (or broke off) by accident.

More to follow after a more extensive test and hopefully dyno with and without.

Jesus Christ! People, please read this thread before posting. I'll say this ONE more time. My car ran great from the day I picked it up. I did things in this order:

Installed Borla Exhaust, result, car runs fine. Month later, installed Green filter, result, car runs fine. Month later, installed Canzoomer Stage 1, result, multiple occurances of detonation. I removed the Stage 1, and sent it back to Maurice for fixing (updating). While my unit was with CZ, my car ran fine once again. I got the reflash, varified it, and result, the car runs fine. I received my Stage 1.1 back from CZ yesterday, installed it, result, detonation.

What about this aren't you understanding. THE ONLY TIME IT HAS EVER HAPPENED IS WITH THE STAGE 1 OR 1.1 INSTALLED!!!

Re: Re: Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

YES! THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING!:)

I would be willing to test this out on my car. If CZ is ok with it. I am not at sea level but am about 1200 feet above. I will be willing to give CZ my credit card # if it makes him feel more comfortable. Let me know if this works for you guys. BTW I have stock exhaust and intake. No upgrades yet.

Eeks. I would let that unit go back to Maurice for a check out.

Vince

Guys I am at 984' elevation here in Ky.

Re: Re: Re: Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

OK, I see where I mis-read your original post. Sorry about that.

Never the less, of the current crop of cars showing problems it's still just 1 with the stage1, and 3 without. Looks like an issue with L that might get brought to the front with the changes a stage1 might put in on certain cars. We certainly have seen huge variations in overall numebrs for everybody.

At least I can say mine is running great. I just spent 45 minutes doing 1/4 mile runs with it turned on and turned off, and it didnt stutter at all.

Genom,

Did you notice if it sounded different to you? Mine seems to sound higher pitched.

Yes, it is definitely a higher pitch. Also a bit louder above 6000RPM Sounds turbine like.

I have seen a few blown N/A rotary engines due to improper tuning. And also even if it's not blown right away, the damage might have been done. I have seen numerous cars which were tuned improperly and have high knock reading. When the cars were brought in, they still ran. But after they are tuned to the right a/f ratio and ignition timing, the engines were blown a few months after. Why? The apex seals have been weaken and might have cracked a little already. They can't take the normal stress even though your engine have been tuned properly afterward.

And you better make sure you can hear the detonation. Not everyone knows what detonation sounds like. Obvioulsy the detonation is pretty bad that the stock knock sensor can't retard the timing enough to make it go away.

When you get a pre-programmed piggyback, make sure you tell the vendor exactly what's on your car and what you plan to do so he can provide you with the map to tailor those mods. If the map of the piggy back is already tuned to the safe limit, any changes on the flow characteristic of the intake and exhaust will affect the a/f. So if the piggy back is programmed for stock intake and exhaust, putting on an aftermarket intake and exhaust might cause the a/f to be too lean. It's even worse if you get a new reflash of the stock ecu which has a leaner map.


Chuck Huang

once again chuck...sounds like good advice from experience.
thanks for your info and posting it. ps. i really love the intake you sold me. i insulated inside the box and that has helped the harsh level of noise for those who are not in race mode every day.
rudy 8

Re: Re: Re: Re: Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

Genom, you said you had a gtech, correct? Is it the gtech pro or the first model? Please post your findings comparing stage 1.1 on vs off.

I've got a gtech pro and got my L flash today. Did a couple of hp/tq runs in 2nd gear a couple of days ago and going to go do some tonight to see if theres any difference. I'll post my findings tommorrow.

Thanks Chuck, that does make sense. CZ has the stock air filter, the Borla exhaust, the "L" reflash, and he is 3000 ft or so above sea level. I'm closer to sea level, and I'm running the Green drop in filter. Those are the differences, and possibly the reason this happened to me. Assuming that may be the case, I feel better without using an ECU upgrade at this point given these factors. I need, and we all need to have mods whre there is a little more margine allowed for changes we might make to the car.

It's not like I put a turbo on the car, for God's sake, I just dropped an air filter in and bolted on an exhaust. It is just as much the car's fault as it is the mod's. This Renisis is a picky son of a gun. It's really too touchy to mod (IMO).

Why is this thread in two places?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stage 1.1 + L Reflash = Problems
 

There are multiple theads concering 'L' flash + canzoomer stage 1.1


Nevermind, I found no difference in power at all with my gtech pro. Here's the graph...
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=22951

I dunno... a drop-in air filter does not seem like it should be a problem. You're using the stock airbox after all, and I wouldn't think the green filter would flow *that* much more air.

Weird. My $$ is on perhaps a faulty unit in someway. This just sounds too unusual compared to everyone else's experiences with L and 1.1, even at lower altitudes.

Be nice if Maurice took a shot at answering... ;)

I don't think the Renesis is any more difficult to mod than, say, a piston. I think engine tuning in general is a difficult thing to do. If it was easy, car companies wouldn't have to spend tens of millions of $$$ to develop an engine.

This is nothing new and is not specific to the Renesis. I remember the Subaru WRX STi would would have pinging/dentonation problems straight from the factory :eek:! They had to fix it with a ECU reflash.


People should understand that this type of thing happens when you decide to be an "early adopter."

I know the Air Station is 18" above sea level, so i'd say your pretty close. :D

I think there is a way to get your eleveation using the Nav system. The hidden menus show your exact poition and elevation.

My Stage 1.1 went back to Canzoomer today, and even though their are issues with the mod, CZ's service is top notch (IMO). He's refunding me for my Stage 1.1 and he is doing so very respectably. He's a pleasure to talk to and deal with.

By the way, for those who are interested, he stated that he "wasn't sure" what was wrong with my mod. He couldn't really do anything without my vehicle to test.

mdw33333 I was really hoping your problem was something simpleto do with the flash like mine. Sorry. I took mine back and service tech said I did have a detonation problem. They checked it out and found that something in the program didn't take correctly. He said it was their fault. They should have checked it as per the Mazda forms said. They re-flashed it again and I have had no more problems.
I did get a tank of gas and a free oild change out of the deal.
Ah...it's nice to get 19 to 21mpg on the highway now. No difference in performance but does seem (in my mind) to run smoother. Also made the exhaust a "little" bit quieter. (so my wife said)

I would suspect one of two things happened:

1. A fault in the unit. Unlikely as the car ran, but still possible.

2. You are close to sea level, so you have lots of O2 which translates to slightly lean. You caused the mixture to lean a bit more by installing the exhaust. You caused it to lean a bit more still by installing the intake. It was leaned a bit more again by the "L" flash. Then you installed the Stage 1 box, which may have pushed it just a bit too much.

You have now seen how good the PCM is at protecting the renesis from detonation. Was what you heard detonation? I doubt it. It is more subtle. Kind of like shaking a can with bolts in it. I suspect what you heard was the noise generated when you suddenly yank the timing to full retard (any play in the engine gearing will be taken up with a bump or clang). This is what the new detonation prevention system does. Those of us with 3rd gen RX-7s sure wish it was built into our cars!

If I'm correct in my (long distance) evaluation, this is exactly what Maurice has been worried about. Someone will find the combination of mods. that lean the engine too much. I suspect if you put the stock air filter back in the Stage 1 would be fine. Oh, BTW I'm not blaming you, just trying to explain what I think happened. If you notice the effect again even without the Stage 1, switch to higher octane rated fuel (if you can).

We'll see how others fare.

When modifying engine components you can go a little way without considering what you are doing. Once you go far enough you have to know what is happening to the mixture. Hence Stage 2+ (3 especially) have tuning capability. Lamdaboy (wideband O2 sensor) data is required.

Lambdaboy isn't fast enough for this application.
The LM-1, which is almost 20% faster can barely keep up.