Should a novice own a turbo/sc ?
 

When it comes to cars, I dont know much. If I managed to find a professional in OH to install a Turbo/SC would I still be making a mistake? If something goes wrong I wouldnt have the slightest idea how to fix it myself. That being, my fear is that my car would end up being a high maintenance rotary with a turbo, that no ordinary mechanic will want to work on it, and there are no tuner shops in the Akron OH area.

Do you think I should just drop the idea of adding power and accept the stock car for what it is? Or should I bite the bullet, get one installed PROFESSIONALY, and expect to have it serve as a reliable daily driver?

I would delete you last line very quickly....

I'm no expert but I would suggest you not just because you might not know what feels, sounds, or smells right if something was wrong. Plus finding someone to tune a rotary and work on one is harder, also if you don't know how to fix it yourself where will you take it if no one works on rotaries in your area?

Once again I suggest not to do it.

I would suggest a supercharger. Pretty straightforward install, low risk.

+1
You could go turbo as well but S/C is usually the 'easier' route

correct me if im wrong, but if you just get a mazdaspeed turbo, would'nt the dealership be able to install/maintain it..

I am a novice as well. I have been doing some pretty extensive reading on the FI thread. I would suggest doing some research and everything will come together in time. You cant learn this stuff over night. lol. Happy reading

Theoretically if one existed for the 8. Since it doesn't you can't.

For the OP: Read up on all the turbo and SC information here on this forum and start educating yourself. Ignorance is not bliss in this case as taking an factory NA car and making it FI comes with inherent risks above and beyond a factory FI car.

Mazdaspeed Turbo??? We wish...

Wait...nevermind, we don't actually want a Mazdaspeed Turbo. Knowing MNAO, it'll be OVERPRICED, underpowered, and still void our warranty. :rofl:

:lol2: :uhh: :Eyecrazy: :icon_no2: :eyetwitch :banghead:

I have one for sale...want mine

no.. wait, ..for the 8?..according to the previous posts they dont exist..

ok, i'm a noobie too
ans i want to know
what is a FI car and a NA car ??

thanks

I wouldn't recommend it. FI on a NA car isn't bolt on and forget. You need to monitor it and make sure it's up to spec. If you start going lean, or run on some bad gas, you might not like the results.


Low risk? How so? In fact, the install time seems to rival the greddy turbo, and when you factor in that the SC is loading down the engine and generating boost at idle, it seems a sub par choice.

Agreed. you would be making a big mistake.

Why do people get involved in threads and discussion about this stuff, see the real data and evidence, hear the actual testimonials and experiences and then still post absolute bullshit like this?:icon_no2:

Going FI is not exactly easy regardless of whether its a turbo or supercharger.

no do not do it..

if you asked ? you should not do it..

simple.

beers :beer:

Thanks for being the voice of reason. I'll just migrate down to the appearance threads.

Come on now!

Do your homework - and then decide; might as well take this as an opportunity to learn.

If no one ever tried anything new - then NO ONE would have FI on a rotary.

FI means forced induction like a supercharger or turbocharger that forces more air into the engine. NA is naturally aspirated and is how all 8s come stock. NA is basically the engine taking in the air by itself.

Dude that's awesome!

That just became my signature on all my work emails!:lol:

Because after all the real data I have seen, all the testimonials, I cannot deny the truth.

Item for item the petit supercharger is easier to install in every way.

Ask yourself this question MM.

If your mom (assuming she knows nothing about cars) had both a greddy kit to intall and a petit kit to install without help. Which one do you think she would finish installing first?

"Finish installing"?
You mean just bolting it to the car? Maybe the Pettit in theory, but they would be equal at best in reality.
But that is because the Pettit kit is so incomplete and so under-engineered that it would be foolhardy to run it as it ships.
Do feel informed by the SSX install - much of the installation was done the day before.
It took two guys who are very familiar with the kit two days to install it.
I can install the entire GReddy kit by myself in one day.

For someone that is completely uninitiated, both would be an adventure, but the GReddy kit will work properly out of the box.

No shredded belts, failing pulleys or lopey idle - all "features" that must be addressed by help from Pettit. Not to mention the slew of peripherals that are required to get useable power out of the thing.
The GReddy kit's only potential downfall for immediate operation is the tune and that is an equally problematic issue with the Pettit, which must be addressed by shipping off your PCM.
Even so, the GReddy tune has been addressed a multitude of ways and even adding the Int-X for a "fool-proof" install still leaves you with an easier, cheaper and more reliable and powerful solution out of the box with a confirmed, unquestionable upgrade path to far superior power and drivability.

Now, add to that the other kits available out there (turbo and S/C alike) and you have an incredible menu from which to select. Which seem to be actually working?
And I don't mean minimally.

How are testimonials "truth"? Where are the dynos? Where are the install pics? Where are the lists of people that have installed these things themselves? You are going to look at the stupendously long list of turbo successes and failures and compare it to the nearly nonexistent list of Pettit self-installations?

Exactly. Long story short:

$3500 for the greddy kit = Makes more torque and is far cheaper than the SC.

Drop in another $1600 for the turbo upgrade, and you'll make far more torque (195 vs 260), more hp, and is still cheaper than the SC.

Even if you add $1500 for the int-x, the total above comes to $6600, which is still less than the Pettit II CS $7144.

So.... for more money, you get less hp, torque, and slower acceleration. And that's if you're going by the manufacturer's dyno charts. I haven't seen a single user posted dyno that verifies the numbers for the SC.

^ And that doesn't include the fact that you can sell off the EMU and the greddy turbo to recoup some of the cost - likely $1000 or more.

^But Jason, you forgot that it makes that really cool Whiney sound people love!!


And to the OP: I would suggest not going FI until you either find a local shop/person who is reputable and can tune/install and repair your turbo/SC/car, or get out there, read, pick up a wrench, and do it yourself. We all weren't born with this knowledge, we just went out and learned it and did it (and not always in that order).

And that is a testimonial.

However, Mysql101 doesn't even address the install aspect of it.

Both systems are not going to be installed by my mother. Not even close.
I'd even say they wouldn't be installed by the typical enthusiast.

Any FI system - regardless of whether or not it is sold as "bolt-on" - is not going to be "bolt-on".
Even if it was truly "bolt -on" (and oil filter is "bolt-on"; even an intake is barely "bolt-on"), it would be irresponsible to suggest that you can just slap it on there and expect it to be nominal, let alone safe or even completely functional.

That said, a properly engineered kit should contain everything needed to make it run out of the box. MazSport and GReddy are the only systems we've seen that actually deliver on that promise.
The available S/C kits don't even have sufficient testimonial content to suggest that they are "bolt-on".
Certainly, more S/Cs are vaporware than anything else. Do you know anyone with the DNA/MazdaTrix system self-installed?
Were still waiting on the AxialFlow and Hymee. The HKS never made it to the retail channel.
They just aren't out there, so to use them for comparison is ridiculous.

Diversity in the marketplace would be a great thing right now - especially from the S/C manufacturers. Everyone would benefit, regardless of their choice.
But if you had $5k - $10k burning a hole in your pocket right now, your choices are extremely limited.

one of these days I'm going to attach a kazoo to my bov, so that it makes noise while in and out of boost.


Even looking at the torque graph, I don't know if the Pettit can generate more acceleration under 3k than the MM turbo upgrade. It would be interesting to see. I now get a full 10 psi at 4,000 rpm on the dot, and can hold that to redline. I think I can move it down further to 3,500 rpm if I messed with it more.

:lol: LOL :lol:

lets refer back to my first post

I would suggest a supercharger. Pretty straightforward install, low risk.

If anyone is going to bash my statement, can you disprove my null hypothesis?

Please show me how it is not more straightforward and less of a risk than a turbo install.

I never said anything about it being the most efficient choice. Nor did I say that it netted the best bang for the buck.

I just said, easy install and low risk. Please tell me how this is "absolute bullshit"

static, instead of demanding we prove you wrong, how about you simply back up your statements with proof?

I respect all you guys, lets just drop the turbo vs sc debate.

I'm on the turbo boat myself anyways.

No, lets not. Because this claim is going to get raised over and over again and when it is not confronted straight on, people with their own agenda are going to claim the aversion to the argument as a win.
That is not acceptable.
The turbo vs. supercharger debate is already concluded on pure data. Has that made it go away? Of course not.
So when you throw obfuscatory statements like "S/C is safer and easier" at people who are obviously not held sway by actual, factual statements, they are going to use your word as proof.

So, prove it:

We have videos, pictures, testimonials, DIYs and actual experience with turbo installs.
Show us step-by-step how an S/C install is even comparable or how - in a quantifiable way - the S/C installation is low risk.

heh. Im not bashing you, static.

I just wanted to know how you figure sc is safer. There is risk to both. If you run 8 psi with bad gas, the result will be the same on both systems. If your timing is too advanced, again, the same result. It isn't as though the sc produces softer boost that can't hurt the engine :)

if anything, the turbo has less moving parts and less that can break, much like the renesis itself.

So, by your logic, if I published 100pages of data logs, 4 hours of video, and made several DIYs on the topic of shoveling a entire driveway full of snow with a spoon, it would be the best way based on pure pile of data alone?


1) a supercharger is safer because it is set to run at one calculated boost setting right out of the box. The temptation of turning up the boost just to get more power is not possible unless you are knowledgeable enough to have the part made. This instantly makes it MUCH safer because it protects the user from him/herself (which is the main danger to any FI setup, an inexperienced user)

2) a supercharger installation does not require removal of the exhaust manifold. As we know rotaries can get very hot and the manifold and catalytic converter bolts can be difficult if not impossible to remove without cutting. For the "average user" who has no experience with repairs like this, a turbo install can meet a dead end here where a drive to a shop is necessary.

3) As of right now, the ECU of the RX8 can be flashed to accommodate supercharger installs, requiring no modifications at all to the ECU wiring.

A supercharger is safer because it is harder to accidentally modify, or try and alter.

By the same logic as the fact that you wouldn't give a 16 year old kid a ferrari as their first car.

All of the blow ups on the forum are attributed to people trying to run xx+ psi on their stock greddy turbos. Pushing the system past its limits because its as easy as turning a bolt or even pressing a few buttons if you have a boost controller installed.

See, I still disagree with you, even when using your example. If you bolt on the greddy kit, you're stuck at around 6 psi. You can't modify squat. To change the boost with the push of a button, requires you to install a boost controller. So add $300 for it.

Now, with a SC, for $300, you can surely buy a different pulley and increase boost too.

All you're doing is demonstrating that a turbo system is more easily customizable. Not that it's any riskier. The lack of a higher PSI pulley from Pettit doesn't disprove this, it just means you have less options available.

Only valid if doing so was faster and more efficient that the "N/A" way of shoveling and the "competition" was someone claiming to do it with a fork, but having no data other than showing a shoveled driveway and someone standing next to it holding a fork.


Then why do the few Pettit runs out there show the boost swelling and then falling off if they are "set to run at one calculated boost setting"? So you are saying it is safer because it fails?
A "boost setting" is pointless. Flow is king. If someone is running an S/C at 6 PSI and 260°F charge temps and someone else is running a TC at 11 PSI and 100°F charge temps, who is "safer"?
What about belt slip? What if that one user actually manages to get their belt to not slip at high RPM and they suddenly get all the boost that is designed into the kit to be lost to drive inefficiency?

I have yet to ever encounter a Renesis with frozen manifold bolts. I guess its possible to have frozen mid-pipe bolts, but this is a really, really weak argument. "Oh. I can't get my mid-pipe out. Lets install a supercharger!" But I digress.
So, cutting up the ABS bracket is easier and safer than unbolting the exhaust manifold? Removing the intake manifold and potentially dropping nuts, bolts and all kinds of goodies down the LIM is safe and easy?

Barely. And it isn't bolt-on, so you can't use that point. Furthermore, I can send my PCM to Pettit and have them flash it for use on the turbo as well. Boost is boost, right?

At least you didn't drag out the old chestnut of under-hood heat.

It sure does disprove it. Lack of options is a pretty strong argument.

If lack of options doesn't dispove this, then by-all-means... bolt up your rx8 racing transmission to your all-wheel drive rx8 fed by a 5 rotor engine.

i think the OP is scared to post :D

probably thinking "HOLY SHIT what have i done?!"

My original scope was the reasoning's validity, still you focus on sheer results.

In order for your statements to be valid you need to disprove the null hypothesis. Basic science.

In this case it would be you not only proving your theories but also throughly putting down any other ideations.

http://www.answers.com/topic/file-drawer-problem

I do research for the government. My last job was working quality control at a pharmaceutical company. This is how I do.


Yes, I am saying that it is safer because it is constant.

The safest one is obviously the supercharger, because it is making less power than the turbocharger. less power = safer, right?


Probably the same thing as the guy who locks his wastegate shut, just to see what happens, maybe it will improve spool times or something.

Yes, taking a common hacksaw to an unnecessary part of an item that is accessible from the top of the car is safer than getting under the car and trying to unbolt engine supports and crossbraces before getting rust in your eyes.

Removing the UIM is just as easy as not shorting out the ECU when plugging the piggyback in.


Barely is still good enough. Sure, send your ECU to Pettit and see what happens.

Lets settle this once and for all since your so set on arguing. Buy a pettit kit and a greddy kit, lets give them to 2 18 year olds with no car experience, equal ACT/SAT scores. Lets see who installs each the fastest.

See? I can throw out random nonsense also!

Refer back to post #34

Wow. That was some incredible tap dancing.

do you guys know where i can get some l33t turbowns for teh rotery? I want my soupcharger to l33sh out a wikd "poosht" sound olo

HERE you go.

lol i have seen that before... you should have just posted this in the first place. However, i wouldn't use this to back up your argument, Jeff!

No, I'm done backing up my arguments.
There is no reason. I "won" so long ago that it is just getting wearisome for me.
At this point, I only bother because I'd rather not see people fall behind.
Oh well...

:werd: :argue: