rx8 engine swap front wheel drive
11-21-2007, 02:46 PM
#26
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yo
Going back to the cadilac, I think you where missing the point. We both where on track to push our cars as fast as we could. Granted at this point in time he could have been taking the corner slower than max but my stock crap accent did beat him. With that being said if I inprove what I have i should be able to make improvements beyond other cars. Example a 210% power increase. The picture below is from the day I was running and the other cars that where running if I remember I was behind the red bmw and was catching up to him over two to three laps but I lost him because I missed a corner and had to go off track.
At no point am I saying that my car will be fast but for 10-12 thousand I am looking to be blowing away 2.0, killing mustangs and racing vett.
At no point am I saying that my car will be fast but for 10-12 thousand I am looking to be blowing away 2.0, killing mustangs and racing vett.
11-21-2007, 04:48 PM
#28
Going back to the cadilac, I think you where missing the point. We both where on track to push our cars as fast as we could. Granted at this point in time he could have been taking the corner slower than max but my stock crap accent did beat him. With that being said if I inprove what I have i should be able to make improvements beyond other cars. Example a 210% power increase. The picture below is from the day I was running and the other cars that where running if I remember I was behind the red bmw and was catching up to him over two to three laps but I lost him because I missed a corner and had to go off track.
At no point am I saying that my car will be fast but for 10-12 thousand I am looking to be blowing away 2.0, killing mustangs and racing vett.
At no point am I saying that my car will be fast but for 10-12 thousand I am looking to be blowing away 2.0, killing mustangs and racing vett.
In the green group (newb group) you should NEVER think you beat someone just because the DRIVER is not pushing the car as hard as you do.
You were pushing harder and being more aggressive because psychologically you were trying to prove to yourself something...while the others there were probably just learning how to drive their cars better and not really interested in showing off.
I've passed TONS of cars in green...but just because I can blow away a ferrari does not mean that my car is better...it means that the other driver was probably not pushing their car to its potential...
Stick with the HPDE's...wait to move to at least one more run group up...THEN you will see how badly your car is compared to the others.
Once you have drivers confident in their own abilities, and the car...its a whole different ball game.
11-21-2007, 05:04 PM
#29
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Why bother with FWD when you can buy this AWD kit?
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main...products_id=38
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main...products_id=38
11-22-2007, 12:09 PM
#30
I'll snap his neck.
twinkie makes a good point. My first time out on the track, I was keeping up with a Ferrari F430 the first few laps. This with my 4AT. Keep in mind that the F430 is a 200,000 dollar supercar, with 490 hp and a 3200 lb curb weight. In fact, I was keeping up with him so well that my only concern was not hitting him (the instructor was trying to show me all kinds of stuff - I couldn't concentrate on anything other than "don't hit the ferrari"). I wasn't really driving very hard myself. Once he got comfortable with the layout of the track, I never saw him again....
Also keep in mind it is possible to put more power in the car that what the suspension, drivetrain, etc can handle, almost making the car undriveable.
One thing they taught us in my first HPDE is most modern cars are far more capable than what beginning drivers can handle. In other words, spend the money improving your driving skills until you are reaching the limit of the car, then worry about improving the car or moving up to a higher performance car.
Now if I can just practice what I preach
But actually my next mods are going to be reliability mods. Gauges and upgrading the cooling system. Only performance mod I have planned before my next time on the track is upgrading the sway bars. This is not really an attempt to go faster; i want to make the car feel more stable and comfortable to drive on the track.
Also keep in mind it is possible to put more power in the car that what the suspension, drivetrain, etc can handle, almost making the car undriveable.
One thing they taught us in my first HPDE is most modern cars are far more capable than what beginning drivers can handle. In other words, spend the money improving your driving skills until you are reaching the limit of the car, then worry about improving the car or moving up to a higher performance car.
Now if I can just practice what I preach
But actually my next mods are going to be reliability mods. Gauges and upgrading the cooling system. Only performance mod I have planned before my next time on the track is upgrading the sway bars. This is not really an attempt to go faster; i want to make the car feel more stable and comfortable to drive on the track.
Last edited by mdw1000; 11-22-2007 at 12:12 PM.
11-23-2007, 12:49 PM
#31
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apex racing
I finally found the name of the racing I want to do. Apex, I am looking to build a car to excel at early apex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(racing) I am looking for a high redline so when I down shift and slam on my breaks I can use my shifting weight to its fullest potential. This brings me back to fwd vs rear wheel, at any given pint in a race I will be on two wheels, acceleration back, breaking front, right turn left tires, left turn right tires. Start of race acceleration fwd is slower because of traction is in the back tires first turn I slam on the breaks all of my traction in front two tires now from this point till the end of the turn you need just enough power to keep your car at a 50 50 weight distribution. In a case where the car has a 50 50 already the car would not be acceleration or slowing down. This is where Im confused about weight a 60 40 weight distribution would allow minor acceleration to keep the distribution, so if 50 50 weight distribution is better at constant speed in corners 60 40 is better for acceleration in corners. I think that makes front wheel drive better. As far as over steer and under steer I see those as both advantages if used right. Understeer the back tired dig the front tire into the pavement giving it virtual weight. This make a car heavier without adding weight Fwd is slower but quicker because not only do you loose pounds of traction from the back wheels you loose some from the front tires accelerating. All of that traction can be gained by instead of adding virtual weight you put all the weight on one traction point or in the case of fwd balancing all of the weight on one tire. Traction is based on friction, friction is a product of weight, surface area and how soft you rubber is. The higher amount of weight you can put on one tire increases its friction. You can push a tire with out any load but add 100 pounds and it gets a lot harder. In fwd I can move all the weight up front behind the wheel. When i slam on my breaks very little weight moves and I can turn lifting any weight left onto A tire. All of the sudden 1600 pounds of 2000 are pushing on the only tire telling the car to go right and accelerate. At this point my weight cuts my back into the pavement but all my weight is up front so to keep my car at the 50 50 distribution I need to accelerate.I actually see rwd as a hindrance because of where I want the weight. I am looking to turn this into a sub 13 second car soly so when I can do 100% throttle I can at least keep up and than when I go into a apex I can go into a corner and break later (late apex) accelerate in a straighter line longer. I realize my car was not faster than a cts but for that one instant my car was faster because it had better geometry in the corner, I realize that we where not racing at the time but a car that cost 2500 used in stock condition including 13inch narrow tires that could not out accelerate a cts even it had the slowest diver had a chance. Basically what im saying is I have 10 thousand, a Hyundai accent, and the hopes of getting into a sport. I really do not care what happens to this car but I need it as a daily driver for 9 more months (Graduation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(racing) I am looking for a high redline so when I down shift and slam on my breaks I can use my shifting weight to its fullest potential. This brings me back to fwd vs rear wheel, at any given pint in a race I will be on two wheels, acceleration back, breaking front, right turn left tires, left turn right tires. Start of race acceleration fwd is slower because of traction is in the back tires first turn I slam on the breaks all of my traction in front two tires now from this point till the end of the turn you need just enough power to keep your car at a 50 50 weight distribution. In a case where the car has a 50 50 already the car would not be acceleration or slowing down. This is where Im confused about weight a 60 40 weight distribution would allow minor acceleration to keep the distribution, so if 50 50 weight distribution is better at constant speed in corners 60 40 is better for acceleration in corners. I think that makes front wheel drive better. As far as over steer and under steer I see those as both advantages if used right. Understeer the back tired dig the front tire into the pavement giving it virtual weight. This make a car heavier without adding weight Fwd is slower but quicker because not only do you loose pounds of traction from the back wheels you loose some from the front tires accelerating. All of that traction can be gained by instead of adding virtual weight you put all the weight on one traction point or in the case of fwd balancing all of the weight on one tire. Traction is based on friction, friction is a product of weight, surface area and how soft you rubber is. The higher amount of weight you can put on one tire increases its friction. You can push a tire with out any load but add 100 pounds and it gets a lot harder. In fwd I can move all the weight up front behind the wheel. When i slam on my breaks very little weight moves and I can turn lifting any weight left onto A tire. All of the sudden 1600 pounds of 2000 are pushing on the only tire telling the car to go right and accelerate. At this point my weight cuts my back into the pavement but all my weight is up front so to keep my car at the 50 50 distribution I need to accelerate.I actually see rwd as a hindrance because of where I want the weight. I am looking to turn this into a sub 13 second car soly so when I can do 100% throttle I can at least keep up and than when I go into a apex I can go into a corner and break later (late apex) accelerate in a straighter line longer. I realize my car was not faster than a cts but for that one instant my car was faster because it had better geometry in the corner, I realize that we where not racing at the time but a car that cost 2500 used in stock condition including 13inch narrow tires that could not out accelerate a cts even it had the slowest diver had a chance. Basically what im saying is I have 10 thousand, a Hyundai accent, and the hopes of getting into a sport. I really do not care what happens to this car but I need it as a daily driver for 9 more months (Graduation)
11-24-2007, 12:13 PM
#32
I'll snap his neck.
Your link doesn't work for me, and I'm having a hard time reading your post, but I think there is one thing you missed. Generally, if you are driving a proper line, most of your deceleration will be done before you turn (in the straightaway prior to the entry to the turn). When you are turning you are actually accelerating through the turn, if you are doing it right. Your weight shifts to the outside rear wheel, which is the wheel that is ideally driving the car (RWD with limited slip diff). Only acception to this is trail braking, when you are still decelerating while turning. But then you are putting the weight on the outside front wheel, which you are only using to turn, not accelerate the car.
Think of it this way - if you have a square block of wood sitting on a flat surface, if you push forward on the left rear corner, it will turn to the right. If you grab it by the left front corner and pull it, it will tend to go straight.
When you were at the track, did you have instruction? I learned a great deal on this type of stuff from the instructors with NASA.
Think of it this way - if you have a square block of wood sitting on a flat surface, if you push forward on the left rear corner, it will turn to the right. If you grab it by the left front corner and pull it, it will tend to go straight.
When you were at the track, did you have instruction? I learned a great deal on this type of stuff from the instructors with NASA.
11-24-2007, 12:17 PM
#33
I'll snap his neck.
"All of the sudden 1600 pounds of 2000 are pushing on the only tire telling the car to go right and accelerate. "
I just read this and I think I've found where your misunderstanding lies. As soon as you hit the gas to accelerate, the weight shifts to the outside rear wheel.
I just read this and I think I've found where your misunderstanding lies. As soon as you hit the gas to accelerate, the weight shifts to the outside rear wheel.
11-26-2007, 01:08 PM
#34
You have competing interests here...you obviously HAVE to care about your car because as you said, you need it as your daily driver...
Your living a lie bub...I hate to break it to you...
11-26-2007, 01:35 PM
#35
Destroying Threads
twink, normally I really enjoy you destroying people's hopes and dreams, but this guy is so sad that I beg u not to..............he has a hyundai accent, is still in college, and wants to get in to track racing............arg........please I beg you, sell your hyundai, at least get a tiburon, a miata, an S2k, something, by trading in the accent+10k money.........its worth it, more economical........besides, if ur gonna put in any other engine into your accent, keep in mind that the fuel economy will NOT be the same as your hyundai engine, and virtually your car will behave like the car that the engine came from (aside from your chasis saying wtf!?!). another thing you have to think about is your accent, in all of hyundai's infinite wisdom of engineering, might not be able to support a better, more massive powertrain, and the last thing I want to see is a half-*** modded RB26 in an accent shredded into 3-4 pieces on the track because the chasis fell apart..........
think it is rediculous? I've seen it happen before....but it wasn't in a hyundai, and the car tore apart because of the amount of power that the entire drivetrain shredded to pieces.............
bottom line: trade in your car, put that 10k you plan on swapping the engine into getting a better car, like an 04 miata, hell, you can even get an RX-8 with that amount of money, so why don't you?
think it is rediculous? I've seen it happen before....but it wasn't in a hyundai, and the car tore apart because of the amount of power that the entire drivetrain shredded to pieces.............
bottom line: trade in your car, put that 10k you plan on swapping the engine into getting a better car, like an 04 miata, hell, you can even get an RX-8 with that amount of money, so why don't you?
11-26-2007, 02:35 PM
#36
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hi
"Only acception to this is trail braking, when you are still decelerating while turning. But then you are putting the weight on the outside front wheel, which you are only using to turn, not accelerate the car" but if my turns benefit most from when my weight is on my front wheel does that mean that I should try to have my weight on the front wheel all the time?
"Think of it this way - if you have a square block of wood sitting on a flat surface, if you push forward on the left rear corner, it will turn to the right. If you grab it by the left front corner and pull it, it will tend to go straight." You are completely right if you forget which way the wheels are turned, do the exact same experiment just keep you hand planted in the direction of the wheels and low and behold the book will go straightis pushing on the back and turn when you pull it.
"As soon as you hit the gas to accelerate, the weight shifts to the outside rear wheel." Do you mean all the weight that is centered on the front wheel? and if so how much would I need to accelerate to move it to the back wheel?
'you obviously HAVE to care about your car because as you said, you need it as your daily driver" About as much as I can throw it after I graduate I want to get a new DD.
"get a tiburon, a miata, an S2k" tiburon curb weight 3 thousand with either a 2.7 v6 or 2.0 and same transmission aka engine swap I have a tiburon,,, miata expensive anywhere from 3-10 thousand unless I go for the oldes which has a 1.6 anyways in the end they weight as much as my car and they have a 2.0 and are common as hell, and the s2k are you serious at 2800 pounds and a hefty sticker price i will use up 10 thousand buying this car
"might not be able to support a better, more massive powertrain, and the last thing I want to see is a half-*** modded RB26 in an accent shredded into 3-4 pieces on the track because the chasis fell apart." If im not mistaken that is the skyline engine pushing 300-600 hp and done half assed means the person is an idiot for waisting the money
I guess im still missing the point. If its better to turn with all of your weight on one tire why do the laws of physics change in acceleration?
"Think of it this way - if you have a square block of wood sitting on a flat surface, if you push forward on the left rear corner, it will turn to the right. If you grab it by the left front corner and pull it, it will tend to go straight." You are completely right if you forget which way the wheels are turned, do the exact same experiment just keep you hand planted in the direction of the wheels and low and behold the book will go straightis pushing on the back and turn when you pull it.
"As soon as you hit the gas to accelerate, the weight shifts to the outside rear wheel." Do you mean all the weight that is centered on the front wheel? and if so how much would I need to accelerate to move it to the back wheel?
'you obviously HAVE to care about your car because as you said, you need it as your daily driver" About as much as I can throw it after I graduate I want to get a new DD.
"get a tiburon, a miata, an S2k" tiburon curb weight 3 thousand with either a 2.7 v6 or 2.0 and same transmission aka engine swap I have a tiburon,,, miata expensive anywhere from 3-10 thousand unless I go for the oldes which has a 1.6 anyways in the end they weight as much as my car and they have a 2.0 and are common as hell, and the s2k are you serious at 2800 pounds and a hefty sticker price i will use up 10 thousand buying this car
"might not be able to support a better, more massive powertrain, and the last thing I want to see is a half-*** modded RB26 in an accent shredded into 3-4 pieces on the track because the chasis fell apart." If im not mistaken that is the skyline engine pushing 300-600 hp and done half assed means the person is an idiot for waisting the money
I guess im still missing the point. If its better to turn with all of your weight on one tire why do the laws of physics change in acceleration?
11-26-2007, 05:23 PM
#37
humidity
air pressures
heat
tire composition
adhesion
location of jupiter in relation to your hubcaps...etc...etc...
Under acceleration for example the tire is fighting a battle to maintain traction. The driver can adjust how much power is being delivered to maintain optimum grip. The torque being sent to the wheel is relying on grip to propel the car forward. The amount of grip available is dependent on a variety of variables.
But to make things simple and short...in a rwd car, the front tires are not trying to propel the car forward. In a fwd you are sharing the grip between trying to steer and forward motion. The laws are not different...you simply have a limited amount of grip available.
11-27-2007, 12:53 AM
#38
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ok. so i saw this thread. i do also own an accent. and i did too laugh. the accent has become a nice modding platform for auto x. im not sure what this guy is thinking. but the common swap is a 2.0 beta/beta 2 from either an elantra or a tiburon. this swap can be done very easily, and for not much money. u figure the car weighs about 1800lbs. its perfect. use a nice suspension setup, and a turbo, or even s/c(not a fan) and its a kick *** car for a track.
http://forum.crookedh.com/showthread...ht=beta+accent
this is one of the accents. i mean 278hp on 1800 lbs is pretty nice. i think that may be what he was trying to get at
http://forum.crookedh.com/showthread...ht=beta+accent
this is one of the accents. i mean 278hp on 1800 lbs is pretty nice. i think that may be what he was trying to get at
11-27-2007, 05:31 AM
#39
ok. so i saw this thread. i do also own an accent. and i did too laugh. the accent has become a nice modding platform for auto x. im not sure what this guy is thinking. but the common swap is a 2.0 beta/beta 2 from either an elantra or a tiburon. this swap can be done very easily, and for not much money. u figure the car weighs about 1800lbs. its perfect. use a nice suspension setup, and a turbo, or even s/c(not a fan) and its a kick *** car for a track.
http://forum.crookedh.com/showthread...ht=beta+accent
this is one of the accents. i mean 278hp on 1800 lbs is pretty nice. i think that may be what he was trying to get at
http://forum.crookedh.com/showthread...ht=beta+accent
this is one of the accents. i mean 278hp on 1800 lbs is pretty nice. i think that may be what he was trying to get at
11-27-2007, 12:23 PM
#43
I'll snap his neck.
"but if my turns benefit most from when my weight is on my front wheel does that mean that I should try to have my weight on the front wheel all the time?"
That would mean you would be decelerating most of the time, which won't help your lap times.
That would mean you would be decelerating most of the time, which won't help your lap times.
11-27-2007, 12:40 PM
#44
Destroying Threads
what you guys are forgetting here is the mentality of either a very deranged high schooler that probably likes ricing out his car and see nothing wrong with that
or a very bitter-at-life college kid who has saved up alot of money.....is probably pretty short........is a looser...........and wants to prove something
you can't beat their logic..........
FWD > RWD
using 50% of ur traction to grip and 50% to accelerate and leaving 2 full sets of traction in the back worthless
>
using 100% front traction for grip and 100% rear traction for acceleration
80/20 weight distribution > 50/50 weight distribution
yes, you are correct wizzle, all the stupid *** car manufactors and all the stupid car mechanics, all of us, most scientists, and as you mentioned.........the principle of gravity and inertia it's self is wrong
if only the rx8 would have had all the weight in the front and became FWD, maybe we would have pwned your hyundai accent in the corners
yes, u pwn, ur car cannot be touched, now all it needs is a huge *** spoiler to keep in down in the corners
don't forget to camber it out all the way so u grip better at high speeds also!
goodluck with your endevor
or a very bitter-at-life college kid who has saved up alot of money.....is probably pretty short........is a looser...........and wants to prove something
you can't beat their logic..........
FWD > RWD
using 50% of ur traction to grip and 50% to accelerate and leaving 2 full sets of traction in the back worthless
>
using 100% front traction for grip and 100% rear traction for acceleration
80/20 weight distribution > 50/50 weight distribution
yes, you are correct wizzle, all the stupid *** car manufactors and all the stupid car mechanics, all of us, most scientists, and as you mentioned.........the principle of gravity and inertia it's self is wrong
if only the rx8 would have had all the weight in the front and became FWD, maybe we would have pwned your hyundai accent in the corners
yes, u pwn, ur car cannot be touched, now all it needs is a huge *** spoiler to keep in down in the corners
don't forget to camber it out all the way so u grip better at high speeds also!
goodluck with your endevor
11-27-2007, 05:30 PM
#45
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During braking, weigh shifts to the front wheels. During acceleration weight shifts to the rear wheels. Let's compare a 65/35 FWD car and a 50/50 RWD car. (My numbers from here on are made up from nothing... I don't really know how significant the weight shift is...)
FWD car brakes hard entering a turn, weight distribution becomes 85/15. Front tires have plenty of grip to make the turn, but with only 15% in the back, the back tires may loose grip and the car may want to oversteer. You then power out of the turn, and the weight distribution becomes about 55/45, but the front end now has to deal with both linear accelleration as well as the cornering, and understeer is likely to occur.
Repeat the same on the RWD car and you get distribution of about 65/35 coming into the corner, which gives the front what it needs to corner, and also gives the back the weight it needs to keep from breaking loose. Coming out of the corner the ratio is about 40/60. 40% of the weight on the front is enough when it's only steering, and the back has 60% to keep traction under both cornering and accelleration.
FWD car brakes hard entering a turn, weight distribution becomes 85/15. Front tires have plenty of grip to make the turn, but with only 15% in the back, the back tires may loose grip and the car may want to oversteer. You then power out of the turn, and the weight distribution becomes about 55/45, but the front end now has to deal with both linear accelleration as well as the cornering, and understeer is likely to occur.
Repeat the same on the RWD car and you get distribution of about 65/35 coming into the corner, which gives the front what it needs to corner, and also gives the back the weight it needs to keep from breaking loose. Coming out of the corner the ratio is about 40/60. 40% of the weight on the front is enough when it's only steering, and the back has 60% to keep traction under both cornering and accelleration.
11-27-2007, 10:48 PM
#46
Im sure there are people out there with the same Accent that you have, but have a much much deeper pockets than you do.
I mean it could be done, but the question is, WHY?
You probably love your Accent so much that it actually blind folded your ***.but the truth is, 1800 with 270 something hp sounds impressive. but you HAVE to remember your car was NOT designed with something like that in mind. and you seriously think the auto companies are stupid ?
You can try to put a 2JZ or LS1 to your car, Im sure it can be done, but NOT with 10K, and you can probably get what 500hp with EASY. the weight maybe 2000 ish pounds ?
but it will be funny when you found out that your car is so unbalance that it actually slide out of the track and total it (might kill you in the process too)
I mean it could be done, but the question is, WHY?
You probably love your Accent so much that it actually blind folded your ***.but the truth is, 1800 with 270 something hp sounds impressive. but you HAVE to remember your car was NOT designed with something like that in mind. and you seriously think the auto companies are stupid ?
You can try to put a 2JZ or LS1 to your car, Im sure it can be done, but NOT with 10K, and you can probably get what 500hp with EASY. the weight maybe 2000 ish pounds ?
but it will be funny when you found out that your car is so unbalance that it actually slide out of the track and total it (might kill you in the process too)
11-28-2007, 06:14 PM
#47
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All I can do is smile
krazymikeygt thank you for the link that is sexy
mac11 thanks but this is not the time or place im on myspace http://www.myspace.com/accentracing
mdw1000 your missing the point
tajabaho1 you right "very bitter-at-life college kid who has saved up alot of money.....is probably pretty short........is a looser...........and wants to prove something", but..... I just remembered that I have this article about Annie Sam in grassroots motorsports magazine who took a nx 2000 and did exactly what I want to do and she came in 3rd in SE-R cup, and her car had 140 hp in a 2.0........ wow she must be some looser to..."all the stupid *** car manufactors and all the stupid car mechanics, all of us, most scientists, and as you mentioned.........the principle of gravity and inertia it's self is wrong" wow im not arguing with gravity or inertia im agreeing with it, mechanics dont know about racing its two separate goals with the same vehicle, look im not going to argue with you guys anymore this is not the time or place. I would just like to say that drag races are fun but they are a way to make slow drivers feel better about their slow car, you can make anything do a 9 secong quarter mile but can you take that same car to the limits in turns and before everyone comes back with rx8 can handle better than an accent ask yourself what if someone put the exact same handling in a car that weighed 1000 pounds less than a rx8--- and I am out
mac11 thanks but this is not the time or place im on myspace http://www.myspace.com/accentracing
mdw1000 your missing the point
tajabaho1 you right "very bitter-at-life college kid who has saved up alot of money.....is probably pretty short........is a looser...........and wants to prove something", but..... I just remembered that I have this article about Annie Sam in grassroots motorsports magazine who took a nx 2000 and did exactly what I want to do and she came in 3rd in SE-R cup, and her car had 140 hp in a 2.0........ wow she must be some looser to..."all the stupid *** car manufactors and all the stupid car mechanics, all of us, most scientists, and as you mentioned.........the principle of gravity and inertia it's self is wrong" wow im not arguing with gravity or inertia im agreeing with it, mechanics dont know about racing its two separate goals with the same vehicle, look im not going to argue with you guys anymore this is not the time or place. I would just like to say that drag races are fun but they are a way to make slow drivers feel better about their slow car, you can make anything do a 9 secong quarter mile but can you take that same car to the limits in turns and before everyone comes back with rx8 can handle better than an accent ask yourself what if someone put the exact same handling in a car that weighed 1000 pounds less than a rx8--- and I am out
11-29-2007, 02:47 AM
#49