bureau13

Well, I understand where he's coming from...there is a lot of useless crap out there that is branded as a "performance upgrade" but in reality is anything but. However...I think his expectations of what a vendor has to do to "prove" their claims is unrealistic. Its almost like, hound them to the point where its just way too much trouble to try and answer in a satisfactory manner, and then when they throw up their hands in disgust say "I told you so, see? Its a fraud!" Its just not a realistic approach to anything.

jds

red_rx8_red_int

I agree with you totally but regarding "I tend to beleive well established companies that produce this sorta thing"--does Mazda come to anyone's mind. 250, 248, 239...next IMHO it's going to be 210-220 or a free ECU flash. Truth is I LOVE my car, but besides being the best handling car I've ever owned, I would like to get better straight line acceleration out of it. Do I like the acceleration it has? YES. Would I like it more if it was 10% better? You betcha.:D

compaddict

This really is easy to wrap your mind around folks.

Chuck showed us a picture of some dyno runs and after multiple unanswered (and dodged) requests for the data behind them he is now going to produce the data that made the pictures.

For those that want to buy his product or any other like it.. Buy it and you can then defend it as much as you see fit.

If you haven't bought his or another like it and you are just defending a vender trying to sell you something that you want to really believe in...

Engineers are crying while the thieves are stealing.

Vince

h8CAfwy

While I can understand your skepticism, what you're asking for from Chuck is really inconclusive. If you think he skewed his dyno results in any way shape or form, what make's you think that he won't do the same to the raw data? It's just bad business practice to be deceitful as the truth will eventually come out--case in point Mazda. Loosing customers is the fastest way to go out of business. But if he's telling the truth, we all come out as winners. Another example would be K&N. Why would you think that K&N will grossly overrate their product only for the RX8. So far all the dyno results posted by vendors are very much in line with each other. I think you're undermining the intelligence of members in this forum by sticking to your gun with such conviction without any scientific proof. I'm just trying to approach things logically based on the information presented in this forum.

Rotary Extreme

Vince:

Please answer the following questions with facts, not assumption:

1. How did I duck and dodge YOUR request. Your questions have been answered and you even said "THANK YOU"

2. What kind of proof do you have that my dyno result was forged?

3. What kind of evidence do you have that I am going to forge some raw data to back up my dynosheet?

I guess now I don't need to take my time to get the raw data. You already determined that I will forge the data. But it's kind of funny because the data has to exsit before a dyno sheet can be plotted. And you are saying I am going to forge the data to back up my dynosheet? That doesn't make any sense. A true engineer should know about this.

If you are truly an engineer, you should do your own investigation to prove something you are in doubt. I don't remember my professors at UC Berkeley teaching me calling people bull **** without any kind of back up data is the way of science.

On the contrary, you have not answered how you can make the same intake setup for $35 with the same components. Can you not duck and dodge this very simple question that you brought upon yourself?

Do you know what you are doing is defamation and I can take legal action agaist you? You publicly stated that I lied and stole without any kind of facts or proof. All your statements were based on your believes and assumptions and unfortunately for you, they are all stored on the forum and can be viewed in public.

This will be my last post directing to you because the exchange between you and me is not helping the forum. From now on, your post will be ignored because I can't get anything through someone who is prejudiced.

Chuck Huang

Genom

I agree that Mazda borked up big time. They also lost customers for it with returns and lost sales. I will say however that HP was not a consideration for me to buy the car, so in this aprticular case it didnt bother me. If I bought the intake and it didnt perform as stated, THEN I would have an issue and return it. I had the option of returning my car too after all.

But I think it's safe to say that lying on this particular forum has been shown to be a very bad thing as the word gets around. Again, Mazda is a good case in point. If there hadent been so much exposure here they probably could have gotten away with more. I dont know that fotr sure of course, but it's a thought.

compaddict

So I take it your not going to produce the data then? Since you won't answer my posts now I guess I shouldn't even ask.

The ball is still in your court to prove me wrong. Just post the data and redeem yourself.

Don't use words or threats just post the data and put this to bed.

I'll be the first one in the apology line when you do.

Vince

Reeko

Vince,
Wrap your pee brain around this thought.
The RAW data means nothing more or less than the dyno charts. Either can be faked, so what is your hangup with needing the raw data?

You can only either trust the vendor's data or not. If not, then you will need a third party to verify the data, so why are you giving Chuck such a hard time?

rotarygod

The ball is in nobodys court. There is no game. Chuck has already proven himself and you personally haven't believed it. At this point will ANYTHING make you a believer? No! You'll make a new excuse for the results. If someone buys it and has no gains from it, it is up to them to take it up with Chuck pure and simple and the results would most certainly surface here. It is not for YOU or ANYONE to try to disprove him before they have even seen let alone used the product personally. With arguments like this you'd make a lousy lawyer.

The way it seems here is that only one person has something to prove. Here's what needs to be done to accomplish this. BTW, I'm not referring to Chuck!

1: Make an intake for $35 or less (no more) that works as good or better than Chuck's posted results. Hell, just make it out perform the factory intake for less than $35.

2: Prove he is wrong with what information is already provided. Provide absolute data about specific details in which the data may or may not have been falsified. When I say absolute data the info that is required is info so detailed that I want to know exactly which screw to turn, which button to push, etc that will tell everyone how to do it and the differences between every different model and type of dyno available for automotive use. Obviously only a true expert into the actual workings of a dyno knows how to do this will be able to answer this. If someone doesn't claim to be an expert using the dyno itself, it doesn't mean that they still can't take it somewhere to have someone that knows about it test their car. However, if someone cries about the results saying it must be forged, they MUST be an expert. So Mr. Expert, how do you do it? Details please!

If these 2 things can be met than the rest of us here may actually take some of what is said here into consideration. If this can't be met then there is only 1 person here with a problem and at that point it becomes HIS problem and not anyone elses and therefore no need for anyone else to do anything to appease him.

Since I have said it once, apparently is wasn't enough. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN A PRODUCT. DON'T BUY IT! Simple isn't it? Do you do this all day with all the truly bs products in the world? I'm willing to bet no.

Game, set, match, crowd cheers, crowd leaves, janitors clean up, lights go off, and everyone is at home cozy in bed! Wait, there was no game to begin with! Why am I in a dark stadium?

Chuck: You've always been a wonderful supporter and vendor to the rotary community and I just personally want to tell you that my views of you can not be swayed by the opinion of one harsh critic. FWIW, some of the best movies I've ever seen had some very harsh critics too. You must be doing something right!

compaddict

How about we do it this way. Chuck shows us the data and those who choose to ignore can.

This stated off very simple with Chuck posting dyno charts and me asking for data.

The data is very easy to get from the computer running the Dynojet. In fact you can put near two-hundred runs on one floppy. Or ten runs can be sent via email and take less then a minute to download on dial up.

Again let's see the data and discuss it and get off what a great vender Chuck is for selling it and what an evil person I am for asking questions.

Vince

Irish_in_a_RX8

iTrader: (1)

..why is this such a big deal to you Vince, would you rather not just wait for the K&N Intake, a company that has 'many' research engineers and whatnot? I personally am tired of reading this back and forth motion which is going no where. I just want to read about Chucks product, his research and progress. You have not answered any of his questions either. "NOW' if you can cough up a intake for $35, I am first in line - otherwise can we please drop it. Send him a private email as a moderator already asked of you.

compaddict

It's a big deal because I think it's bullshit.

If your tired of reading about my quest why add to the fodder?

Vince

Reeko

Vince,
You have yet to explain the logic for why the raw data is better than the original dyno plot. Either you trust his plot or you don't.
Raw data will not persuade you to trust his HP claims, only several repeatable data points from neutral 3rd parties will persuade you.

Why don't you wait until some people try out the intake and verify or disprove the claims. Until then, I see no way to satisfy your doubts.

Rotary Extreme

After thinking through the whole thing, I have decided not to post raw data in public for the following reasons:

1. A forged dynosheet has to be generated from forged raw data. If a dynosheet is already suspected of being forged, there is no point to post the raw data from which the dynosheet is generated.

2. A person who already determines the invalidity dynosheet and the raw data desperately asking for raw data must have other use of it other than simply viewing. Why bother to view it if you already determine the data is no good.

3. With raw data, you will be able to print out your own dynosheet. I don't know what other things you can do with the viewer Maybe change the name, date, etc and claim it to be your own. I will want to prevent my data from being misused.

4. Some people on this forum already have purchased the intake and shortly they will be giving review of it. Let the product be customer proven. I don't need to say more. Right now it comes down to the point that either you believe it or you don't. If people use it and like it, they will share the info. If they use it and they don't like it, they will share the info, too. Let the users speak, not people with prejudice or assumptions.

This intake is not going to make your car gain 100 HP and let you beat vipers all day long. If you are expecting something like that, it's not going to happen and we will never advertise it with such a claim. But this intake will flow better than stock and gives you HP gain that can be measured on the dyno with controlled environment, meaning all the factors that will affect the performance of the car are fixed or kept closely to the greatest possible extend. The only variable is the intake.

Chuck Huang

RotorMotor

Very wise Chuck. Rest assured that most of us fully back and believe you. Maybe this jackass will finally shut up now....

islandsoon

Well said Mr Huang...

VelocityRedRX8

The proof of the pudding is in the eating after all. I for one would like to be involved in a group buy if it were to be arranged.

compaddict

Very wise decision Chuck.

Vince

bureau13

His hang-up with the raw data is that Chuck has not produced it. If he were to do so, then this data would be questioned, and Chuck would have to provide yet another form of proof...perhaps a notarized note from the dyno operators mom...and so on and on, ad nauseum...until such point that Chuck refuses, and that becomes the sticking point that proves that the RE intake is in fact a sham, because clearly, if it were real, he would provide just that One More Thing that is being requested.

I concur with what a number of other folks have said...wise move Chuck, don't put up the data, if for no other reason than to let this thread degenerate any farther!

jds

compaddict

Thieves and fools walk together.

Vince

h8CAfwy

Word of wisdom from the unwise.

Omicron

Yeah, what ever happened to the group buy thing??

Rotary Extreme

For those of you who are interested in the intake group buy, please go to

http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8intakegb.html

Thank you.

Chuck Huang

compaddict

Doesn't anyone else see anything suspicious about all this?

1. The horsepower gains seem way to high.

2. He won't post the data.

3. His website preferes Paypal (no buyer protection).

Just my three cents.

Vince

Irish_in_a_RX8

iTrader: (1)

Vince will you give it a break...."Please". We got your point! and you certainly have given more than 3 cents worth, perhaps more like $35...but then perhaps thats alittle shady for you....

BTW...Paypal does protect buyers rights and actually so does modern credit cards...and..what exactly is 'Horepower' ?