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Pricing for the Revi intake is $320.00, I just saw it on RB website.
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Well it's about time. I will have to get one of these.
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
This thing is a work of art. This is definitely worth the wait. Trust me! ;)
Perfect Price also! Nice job RB ;) |
dang thats a pretty intake...........i think intake is next for me..
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http://www.racingbeat.com/resultset....rtnumber=18299
REVi RX-8 Intake System* *Legal in California only for racing vehicles, which may never be used upon a highway. so this intake is illegal to use on the road? |
Originally Posted by \\Konig\\
http://www.racingbeat.com/resultset....rtnumber=18299
REVi RX-8 Intake System* *Legal in California only for racing vehicles, which may never be used upon a highway. so this intake is illegal to use on the road? |
Originally Posted by Mikelikes2drive
i was wondering the same thing when i was reading this... can any one clarify? i dont wanna get something thats gonna make me get another fix-it-ticket :/ ahh what am i sayin gi dont think nething is gonna stop me from gettin this intake, but what's that mean?
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When installed, it doesn't even look out of place. If you don't know exactly what that car looks like under the hood, you'd never know it didn't come that way. Just cover up the Racing Beat emblem. It would pass 9 out of 10 visual inspections with no questions.
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Originally Posted by army_rx8
SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET. i just saw this on there web-site. loks great. but wouldn't it be pointless if i plan on getting a turbo....or can i route the intake into this one from the turbo?
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Originally Posted by Cam
I was wondering the same thing. If I got this intake would it still be usable if I went FI later on?
Then again, you could always sell it on the forum later on when you decide to charge your 8. :D I ordered mine last night - and also will go FI one day down the road, but for now I could not resist myself and ordered it. I have been waiting for this one. |
hmm true true...well i'll parobable get it since i do liek teh produscts that racing beat makes...i'll get it as soon as i find out what is going on with my cltuch/pressure plate (or god forbid tranny)...she is making funny sounds when starting. :( ah well probable somethig i did to her. lol. hmm adding one more 90 deg. bend might not be too bad right? hmm okay maybe it woudl be....but at leat it wouldn't suck up all teh hot engine air that way. ah well when i finaly get a turbo (been sayign that for a while now:( ) i'll see if i can work it..if not it'll go up on here:D
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And what the fuck is so special about this? The vfad junk is removed for it right? So what makes it any different than some other intake besides being overpriced? Just because they have a specially made filter and "tuned" maf tube or whatever?
Waste of money IMO. |
If you don't like it, don't buy one. More for the rest of us. It's pricey for a reason. It works.
Chops |
Originally Posted by ChopsMcgraw
It works.
I'm 'hoping' it works...Although, I can't see RB producing something that doesn't offer at least one advantage over stock. Their exhausts offer two - looks, and sound. :) |
Originally Posted by dDuB
And what the f...
I'll PM all Washignton owners when it is ready to go - sound OK? |
A few points to note:
________ Having Sex |
Originally Posted by dDuB
Just because they have a specially made filter and "tuned" maf tube or whatever?
Waste of money IMO. |
I don't know...it is what it is.
$320.00 for 2-3 hp across the RPM range (per RB) and "better" sound. I ponyed up for the RB exhaust for 2-3 HP and better sound and I'm happy with the result, but I think I'll pass on this one. |
well when you consider that its a hp increase across the entire range instead of all at the top and a loss at the bottom as with some intakes... and i dont have a dyno to say so but i would say its more than 3. 5-10 would be my guess. im sure RB has the numbers and will be available in a couple of days.
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Originally Posted by dDuB
And what the fuck is so special about this? The vfad junk is removed for it right? So what makes it any different than some other intake besides being overpriced? Just because they have a specially made filter and "tuned" maf tube or whatever?
Waste of money IMO. Actually when you see this piece and then compare it to the other intake systems on the market, you will ask what is so special about everyone else. This is in an entirely different league. K&N Typhoon, SR Motorsports, Rotary Extreme, HKS, etc... are all cheaply manufactured and thrown together junk when placed next to this piece. This is a work of art. The craftsmanship is superb. It was actually designed with performance in mind as opposed to being designed quickly in order to make a quick profit from those who will believe anything. The RX-8 is a very finicky car when it comes to intake mods. It isn't as easy as it used to be in terms of just bolting any old part on the car and getting gains out of it. Racing Beat put an aweful lot of work into this system and they also have more actual dyno time as well as GPS based vehicle acceleration data on how well this car performs than anyone else out there. All the rest are mere toddlers in the intake community compared to this piece. Which other intake for the RX-8 has a proper bell radius for smooth airflow? Actually Mazda did it stock but most of the aftermarket doesn't. That's a step backwards for a simple cone filter. I'm sure there's some $1000+ intake in Japan somewhere that does but that's not even comparable in price and is probably still inferior in quality. The bell radius isn't even plastic. It's spun aluminum. The maf tube is cnc machined aluminum, not some piece of pipe with a maf fitting welded to it. The filter was custom designed to work with this unit. Racing Beat understands very well unlike almost every other manufacturer that acoustics play a huge part in performance. The size of the box, the size of the filter, and the length and diameter of the intake tubing all affect each other when it comes to proper tuning. This can't just be guessed by slapping a filter on a tube, adding a shield, and saying "here it is". That's what the others have done. K&N probably just loves the terrible feedback they've gotten from the Typhoon system. They are completely redesigning it in admittance that it is crap. I will give Rotary Extreme some credit in that they figured out that for the diameter pipe they are using with the filter they are using, the pipe had to be a certain length and protrude into the filter so far to idle good. Too bad there is no airbox, just a simple shield, and no bell radius inside the filter. That right there loses 20% in airflow and doesn't help laminar flow. If you don't test, you don't know. Yes the VFAD is removed. When you drive this car with the RB intake though, you can't tell it is gone. There is no noticable loss of low end. The total intake area into the airbox is also larger than the factory box. Even with the VFAD removed on the stock box, it still can't flow this much. When you drive this up through the rpm range, you don't feel the intake transistion points as much. It is really just much smoother and more refined. At idle the sound is stock. Even at cruising rpm's the sound is almost stock. There is no annoying ricer droning sound. At full throttle it does get louder but not unbearably so. It sounds very nice and aggressive but very smooth. You won't go deaf from it but it is enough that you can tell it is there. This was another area that Racing Beat concentrated on figuring that the typical RX-8 owner would be more mature and want a more refined sounding vehicle rather than a louder ricer sounding one. This intake is a tank. It is built very well, fits fantastic, looks good, sounds good, and most importantly was designed properly. Anyone can take a piece of sheet aluminum, cut and bend it into a heat shield, weld a maf flange (cnc or otherwise) onto a tube, stick a filter on it, make some claims and sell it. Almost any single aspect of this system has far more time and effort placed in it that every other intake system has in the entire product. Is it possible that the others out there do gain power? Yes. They may gain a couple of peak horsepower. While great for dyno numbers and product sales, this tells you nothing in terms of performance and certainly doesn't help you in acceleration. Racing Beat designed theirs to work good everywhere possible. They aren't even done improving it yet as later this year it will get better still with the ram air duct. The only compromise that Racing Beat made with this intake and it's pricing is that they can't appeal to the person who wants the cheapest parts on the market. That's ok though. That's not really an insult. That's smart. I've got no complaints about this system. I feel that EVERY other intake option out there is obsolete and a complete joke when placed next to this one. $320 may seem high but this is comparing it to products that really aren't even in the same league. In reality even $150 is a ripoff for the other alternatives. They aren't worth it. This one is. People have it backwards. They aren't paying too much for a good intake system (Racing Beat). They are paying too much for crap intake systems (pick one!). Look at some of the intakes in Japan that appear to actually have some development put into them. $1000+. Racing Beat is a bargain if anything. Not that it means much but they've got my endorsement. |
Originally Posted by ChopsMcgraw
If you don't like it, don't buy one. More for the rest of us. It's pricey for a reason. It works.
Chops I'm not planning on buying one. And what reason is that? Got any proof? How do YOU know their "claims" aren't as faulty as say the K&N intake? I'll believe it when someone on this board proves it, granted I trust Racing Beat over K&N, but still you can't take a manufacturers word as truth always.
Originally Posted by Nemesis8
Hey man, I'll tell you what. When I get mine installed, I'll drive somewhere where all the King, Pierce, and Thurston County 8 owners can see it, feel it, and test drive it. Sound like a plan? Then you can make your own judgements based on real World scenarios.
I'll PM all Washignton owners when it is ready to go - sound OK? That'd probably be better than just readint about it, I appreciate your willingness to help and give experience to people. My problem is, I just don't see it being better than any other generic cone filter in a box considering that the VFAD/extra ducting is removed.
Originally Posted by zoom44
thats exactly what makes this one special, the tuned length maf tube and airhorn plus the rotational molded airbox. as it was so well put earlier "it works" please read what i quoted from own review in my post on the prior page. Or read the review by Brian Goodwin at www.good-win-racing.com anyone that wants to see/hear mine can come to the NW Rotor Rally at the Apple Blossom Festival in Wenatchee Washington http://www.nwrotorrally.org/schedule.php may 6 thru may 8. unfortunatley i understand nemisis8(kevin) wont be there to compare between his w/racing beat exhaust and mine with stock exhaust.
Like I've said, my main issue is that I don't see this being any better than other intake systems (excluding the K&N pos) and I don't understand how it's supposed to be so great even when the ducting crap gets taken out. |
dDUB, did you even read rotarygod's post???
and why do you trust racing beat more than K&N but you still think that racing beat's claims are faulty? Has Racing Beat ever been faulty before? You seem like a very angry person from all the posts you have posted in this thread. |
Originally Posted by \\Konig\\
dDUB, did you even read rotarygod's post???
and why do you trust racing beat more than K&N but you still think that racing beat's claims are faulty? Has Racing Beat ever been faulty before? You seem like a very angry person from all the posts you have posted in this thread. 2. I trust racing beat more than K&N with claims, HOWEVER if you had read my posts carefully I said "How do YOU know their "claims" aren't as faulty as say the K&N intake?" I wasn't making the assumption it is as faulty, but the average consumer doesn't know for sure if it is or isn't. All there is right now is talk until the general public has a chance to get ahold of it and test it for themselves, and dyno, etc. Sure there are people out there that have them already, but they were given the intakes by racing beat for free and are probably not going to be saying much bad about them, especially people on this board when I *think* RB somewhat sponsors the board? Not sure. 3. One thing about racing beat I don't like are their exhausts, exlcuding just the ehader and downpipe, I think they are way overpriced for what you get when you can get similar ones for cheaper or make your own for way cheaper (this is 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen rx7 and rx8 included). I also have had issues with their true dual exhaust in the past (for 2nd gen). 4. I'm not angry, I just don't see a point in spending that amount of money on it. Stuff is so expensive for rx8's right now, not just from RB, that it's retarded. Just because it's a new car things have to be expensive? Exhaust systems for example, way overpriced. But that's just my opinion. None of you really even know if I'm right or wrong yet. Maybe I'm wrong, if so then cool good for all of you. If I'm right then that's cool also. I don't really care, I just think it's overpriced and not worth it. My .02 |
this is a bit random, but i just saw a banner on this site for K&N intakes saying "9.5HP Increase on RX-8"
Wouldnt that be nice...:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by dDuB
1. No I didn't because I have rotarygod on ignore.
My gift to you:) ou know what they say about opinions... Actually when you see this piece and then compare it to the other intake systems on the market, you will ask what is so special about everyone else. This is in an entirely different league. K&N Typhoon, SR Motorsports, Rotary Extreme, HKS, etc... are all cheaply manufactured and thrown together junk when placed next to this piece. This is a work of art. The craftsmanship is superb. It was actually designed with performance in mind as opposed to being designed quickly in order to make a quick profit from those who will believe anything. The RX-8 is a very finicky car when it comes to intake mods. It isn't as easy as it used to be in terms of just bolting any old part on the car and getting gains out of it. Racing Beat put an aweful lot of work into this system and they also have more actual dyno time as well as GPS based vehicle acceleration data on how well this car performs than anyone else out there. All the rest are mere toddlers in the intake community compared to this piece. Which other intake for the RX-8 has a proper bell radius for smooth airflow? Actually Mazda did it stock but most of the aftermarket doesn't. That's a step backwards for a simple cone filter. I'm sure there's some $1000+ intake in Japan somewhere that does but that's not even comparable in price and is probably still inferior in quality. The bell radius isn't even plastic. It's spun aluminum. The maf tube is cnc machined aluminum, not some piece of pipe with a maf fitting welded to it. The filter was custom designed to work with this unit. Racing Beat understands very well unlike almost every other manufacturer that acoustics play a huge part in performance. The size of the box, the size of the filter, and the length and diameter of the intake tubing all affect each other when it comes to proper tuning. This can't just be guessed by slapping a filter on a tube, adding a shield, and saying "here it is". That's what the others have done. K&N probably just loves the terrible feedback they've gotten from the Typhoon system. They are completely redesigning it in admittance that it is crap. I will give Rotary Extreme some credit in that they figured out that for the diameter pipe they are using with the filter they are using, the pipe had to be a certain length and protrude into the filter so far to idle good. Too bad there is no airbox, just a simple shield, and no bell radius inside the filter. That right there loses 20% in airflow and doesn't help laminar flow. If you don't test, you don't know. Yes the VFAD is removed. When you drive this car with the RB intake though, you can't tell it is gone. There is no noticable loss of low end. The total intake area into the airbox is also larger than the factory box. Even with the VFAD removed on the stock box, it still can't flow this much. When you drive this up through the rpm range, you don't feel the intake transistion points as much. It is really just much smoother and more refined. At idle the sound is stock. Even at cruising rpm's the sound is almost stock. There is no annoying ricer droning sound. At full throttle it does get louder but not unbearably so. It sounds very nice and aggressive but very smooth. You won't go deaf from it but it is enough that you can tell it is there. This was another area that Racing Beat concentrated on figuring that the typical RX-8 owner would be more mature and want a more refined sounding vehicle rather than a louder ricer sounding one. This intake is a tank. It is built very well, fits fantastic, looks good, sounds good, and most importantly was designed properly. Anyone can take a piece of sheet aluminum, cut and bend it into a heat shield, weld a maf flange (cnc or otherwise) onto a tube, stick a filter on it, make some claims and sell it. Almost any single aspect of this system has far more time and effort placed in it that every other intake system has in the entire product. Is it possible that the others out there do gain power? Yes. They may gain a couple of peak horsepower. While great for dyno numbers and product sales, this tells you nothing in terms of performance and certainly doesn't help you in acceleration. Racing Beat designed theirs to work good everywhere possible. They aren't even done improving it yet as later this year it will get better still with the ram air duct. The only compromise that Racing Beat made with this intake and it's pricing is that they can't appeal to the person who wants the cheapest parts on the market. That's ok though. That's not really an insult. That's smart. I've got no complaints about this system. I feel that EVERY other intake option out there is obsolete and a complete joke when placed next to this one. $320 may seem high but this is comparing it to products that really aren't even in the same league. In reality even $150 is a ripoff for the other alternatives. They aren't worth it. This one is. People have it backwards. They aren't paying too much for a good intake system (Racing Beat). They are paying too much for crap intake systems (pick one!). Look at some of the intakes in Japan that appear to actually have some development put into them. $1000+. Racing Beat is a bargain if anything. Not that it means much but they've got my endorsement. - rotarygod |
Thanks, I guess... but the reason I put him on ignore is because I don't want to read his posts.
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Originally Posted by dDuB
None of you really even know if I'm right or wrong yet. Maybe I'm wrong, if so then cool good for all of you. If I'm right then that's cool also. I don't really care, I just think it's overpriced and not worth it. My .02 i do 'cause its in my car. and i would not keep it in there if i didnt like and i would say so if i didnt. its staying in there. im home every day right now anyone wants to come over and check it out. |
Okay well you know I guess :)
Portland is kinda far from Bothell, WA for me though :p: |
As soon i get the intake, i promise i'll be talking lots of pictures and video clips.
I bought the Typhoon last summer and returned it... POS!!! that's what it was... I trust RB 100%, i dealt with them 3 times and i grade the service + quality of their products A+ RotaryGod who are you? you ALWAYS make sense.... hmm!! i wonder. ;) |
Originally Posted by dDuB
That'd probably be better than just readint about it, I appreciate your willingness to help and give experience to people....
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I'm on ignore!!! Hahahahaha!!!!! That just made my day! :D Actually I don't personally have a problem with him so whatever makes him happy.
The reason being is that he's a typical miseducated 2nd gen RX-7 owner. (not because of the car but because of the mentality that most of those kids have that own them and their lack of experience) (Strangely enough he's also a moderator on the RX-7 forum). Most of those people are very close minded and have a bad habit of doing things wrong even after it has been proven time and time again to not work and strangely enough refute what does work. Under this "in the box" mentality, a product can: 1: Never be cheap enough 2: Never work good enough. Unfortunately with this logic it never will work good enough because a very closed minded approach is taken to things and because it is very easy to go with what is popular rather than what actually works. "They said it did therefore it does". Sadly with so much misinformation going around the internet, it becomes very hard to distinguish between who is reputable and who is not. Not even every so called "respected" company is reputable. This is the source of the problem. Racing Beat is definitely a refutable company and is very honest. As a person who has tried every bs sheme out there and failed, how is one to know that even Racing Beat is reputable? There's a simple answer. Look at their track record. They have never done anything that they didn't claim. No they don't have the most extreme products on the market but they also don't claim to. How many others make claims but don't produce? They are so good that Mazda has time and time again worked with them to produce race cars (Bonneville, SCCA, IMSA, etc.), NASA has worked with them. They helped to develop and produce the exhasut and suspension parts for the Protege MP3, etc. They still do deveopmental work for Mazda that we never hear about. If they weren't reputable and honest, they wouldn't get these opportunites. Tell me even 1 other rotary company that gets these chances? I'll wait... Sadly, some still don't look at the evidence but look through it. It is for the above reasons that I am not very popular on the 7 forum. It makes me proud that ignorance will always reveal itself on command but at the same time I feel bad that the community as a whole trusts so many wrong people because they are popular and they continue to wrongly educate the newer people which furthers the problem. I do get a good laugh from looking at all the wrong ways things are repeatedly tried though! For the rest of us, there's only room to go forward not backwards. Let the skeptics stay slow. In the end they will have spent more money trying the same thing over and over again and you will still be faster! It's sad that dDuB doesn't want to learn how to do things properly but so be it. I really think he just doesn't like me since I am too honest and don't bs. I don't tell people what they want to hear. I tell them what they need to hear. I can't make them like or agree with it though. So be it. As a wise person once said, "the problem with designing a completely foolproof product is underestimating the extreme creativity of complete fools". This intake rocks guys! Guess how else I know? ;) |
What else do you know rotarygod about the intake?
Let me guess "Cannot mention anything until RB reveals more details soon"... Oh!!! men.. i can't wait to get it and go for a drive... I'm like a kid, but worst... :D |
Mazda has lied about hp claims and so can RB.......Im not saying it happened but Mazda did let me down so anything can happen.... :confused:
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Originally Posted by SilverBullitt
What else do you know rotarygod about the intake?
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I think dDuB has every right to be skeptical about a product that a VERY select few people have ever touched.
That said--dDuB, if several prove real world whp gains from using this intake, would you change your mind? What do you consider to be a respectable $/hp? The GReddy turbo kit is ~$60/hp, and that's if you install it yourself. By that measure, 5hp would be an equal value and 6 would make it relatively cheap. Of course, to get to the real question of why late model hp upgrades cost so much. 1. Late model cars have a lot more R&D going into them from the manufacturer. RB itself has stated that the RX-8 didn't leave a whole lot untapped for intake or exhaust. Kudos to Mazda for this. 2. Newer cars often have a PCM which will practically tune out any gains made available by simple upgrades such as intake or exhaust, in an effort to make the car perform like it was programmed to at the factory. 3. R&D on new cars COSTS a LOT of money! Getting an old Cutlass and slapping intakes on a Rochester Q-Jet costs nearly nothing, even if you break something. Blow up your 8's engine, tranny, or rear end while testing and say goodbye to several thousand dollars. When you pay a company that does it right (like RB), you're not paying only for some aluminum, cotton gauze, oil and plastic, but for the time and effort spent developing the product. Finally, from what I've seen from RB and seen from the "other guys", I'm sure RB's intake will be a better value than any other intake out there, in terms of $/hp. --Massive |
After experiencing the intake first hand, those of you that ordered it will be happy. When I saw the level of quality and detail that went into this thing, I was blown away.
The power gains for me have been rather minor by my butt dyno, but, the power is so linear with it, it can be hard to tell what the gains are. Its a great improvement in throttle response and smooths the power band out. I'm looking forward to seeing there dyno. The sound is almost stock when your not heavy on th throttle, and when you go WOT, it sounds like an F1 car. Another great Racing Beat product. |
Rotary Aliens at Racing Beat
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Just to pick on this one statement because it stands out to me...what RX-8 exhausts are significantly cheaper than RB's? Seriously, its right about the average price for the most popular exhausts, which happen to put it on the low side of things.
Originally Posted by dDuB
3. One thing about racing beat I don't like are their exhausts, exlcuding just the ehader and downpipe, I think they are way overpriced for what you get when you can get similar ones for cheaper or make your own for way cheaper (this is 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen rx7 and rx8 included). I also have had issues with their true dual exhaust in the past (for 2nd gen).
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Yeah, my exhaust is much cheaper. Made it out of paper mache... :eek:
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Originally Posted by Nemesis8
RG is an alien from a three sided world at about 9,000 million light years away... :D
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brillo, you mean it sounds like this www.lesvikings.ca/f1.htm
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Originally Posted by SilverBullitt
What else do you know rotarygod about the intake?
Let me guess "Cannot mention anything until RB reveals more details soon"... Oh!!! men.. i can't wait to get it and go for a drive... I'm like a kid, but worst... :D I understand dDuB's skeptism with this intake. None have performed as promised so why should this one? With so much false info going around in the market today, it is much safer to just be a skeptic of everything and let others verify claims. As I said, I don't have a problem with him. He just comes from a place where everyone tries the wrong things over and over again and a new wrong piece or technique keeps coming in to replace it. The problem doesn't lie with him, it's with the honesty of those who market products. My only goal is to support those products and companies that do work good and to expose those that don't. Guess which ones don't like me? Every once in a while a good company can make a mistake though. K&N is an example. They are a very good company and have had great success on many other cars but just plain and simple screwed up with the Typhoon intake for the RX-8. They know it and are trying to correct it. I can't fault them for that. Racing Beat even went to them to design a custom filter for this unit. In truth we'd all be safer if we were skeptics of every new product out there and if you've never dealt with that company before or known anyone who has, you should be skeptical. However someone has to do it first. Those who don't take risks never get ahead in life. It's a learning process. If it failed, you learned one way how not to do it. I have found out a whole lot of ways not to do things with rotaries! Here's something for everyone to ponder. Can a good filter actually give you more power or does a good filter just take the least power away? Think about that one for a while! |
Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
Mazda has lied about hp claims and so can RB.......Im not saying it happened but Mazda did let me down so anything can happen.... :confused:
what claim have they made? |
Originally Posted by zoom44
what claim have they made?
hmm...Maybe 'lied' is too strong a word...but I know of about 238 'fudges' ;) :D |
I wouldn't consider it a lie. The engine when properly tuned CAN make 238 or even 247 hp! Ask Paul Yaw, he's done it. The problem is that they "estimated" the wrong amount for the final state of tune.
Just consider this, Chevy under rates the LS1 engines in the Z-28's. To avoid a double standard, they too must have lied about their "claims". It's amazing how suddenly the exact same thing is no longer a negative but rather a positive! In order to be honest, they should claim exactly the number those cars put out but they don't. How does that make Mazda liars, but GM not? If it's not the same thing, it's a perception problem and therefore a double standard. |
no i meant what claim did RB make- i dont see an hp claim in the intake info currently on their website
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Originally Posted by zoom44
no i meant what claim did RB make- i dont see an hp claim in the intake info currently on their website
ahh! He wrote 'so 'can' RB - I took that to mean "Whatever claims they make 'could' be lies... |
Justice, Our Foundation
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I wouldn't consider it a lie. The engine when properly tuned CAN make 238 or even 247 hp! Ask Paul Yaw, he's done it. The problem is that they "estimated" the wrong amount for the final state of tune.
Just consider this, Chevy under rates the LS1 engines in the Z-28's. To avoid a double standard, they too must have lied about their "claims". It's amazing how suddenly the exact same thing is no longer a negative but rather a positive! In order to be honest, they should claim exactly the number those cars put out but they don't. How does that make Mazda liars, but GM not? If it's not the same thing, it's a perception problem and therefore a double standard. For most people, it's only 'lying' when it hurts them. For most people - especially politicians, something which isn't true, but makes them 'look good' is called 'embellishment'. ;) :D I'd like Paul Yaw to tune my car. :) |
Originally Posted by \\Konig\\
Justice, Our Foundation
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