strong bad

Thanks, RG. pretty much what I was tryin to say a page ago (clicky)

How many ppl have dumped several hundred if not a few thousand in mods into their car that make slight differences in performance? Yet for $300 (and I think I caught somewhere it might be offered for around $200) it doesn't give enough gain..or it's too much hassle to get this upgrade on RB's terms. Is everyone waiting for an option that has all the capabilities of say the Int-x with end user programming in a very user friendly/idiot proof package at 1/3 of the cost? I guess if that were the case, there pretty much isn't anything on the market that's sufficient.

To get a fully programmable EMS means you can completely fine tune your car for optimal performance. This is also very expensive (increased price for the unit + cost of tuning sessions + x amount of time/energy customizing).

To go with a reflash.. it's much simpler. True, you don't get all the bells and whistles/options of a fully programmable unit.. you can't customize it the way you'd like, but at least you can't screw up your car..

I think Fred's touching on the issue that no one option can please everybody.. and taking it one step further that most ppl seem to want to find ANY problem with any service. eg Option A costs too much or Option B doesn't give me enough freedom. It's simple trade offs..either find what satisfies most of your needs and go with that or develop your own product. Or hold your breath for someone to offer you free lunch.

Rx-A-Ho

Good thing I work a mile away from Racing Beat.

rotarygod

That's basically the point. Every mod has it's place with someone but no mod is perfect for everyone.

Let's see if I can fulfill everyone's needs with one product. The only way to please everyone is for someone to develop a plug in programmer for $150 that will arive C.O.D. and the post office will let you install it and try it out first to see if you like it before you pay for it. On top of that, tuning has to be made so easy that simply adjusting a simple value up or down makes you go faster. It has to work in every country. It has to come with a tune that works for every single possible scenario out there with no additional tuning necessary but at the same time give you the ability to modify it if you want to. It has to be emissions legal. It has to give you no CEL's. It has to allow you to save an infinite number of maps. It has to have a boost controller built in. It has to have nitrous control built in along with an included tank. It has to allow differerent sized injectors to be used. It can't be made by Racing Beat as people will complain that they aren't the be all end all compared to others. It has to give you a 50 wheel horsepower gain and not a 50 flywheel horsepower gain as the extra horsepower makes you go faster. It has to come with a dyno chart. It has to come with a dyno. It has to be able to get you out of tickets. It has to work in the mountains. It has to work in the valley. It has to be able to simultaneously do both. It has to work in China. It can't be complicated. It has to tune itself. It has to tune other people's cars. It has to include a lost Picasso.

Will this make EVERYONE happy? Is that all? Here's a bit of reality. You will never get it!

Here's something to think about. Remember people have businesses to run and you don't survive by giving things away. The company that sells a product that can be plugged in to tune a car will be popular but they aren't going to make much money off of it. Why? How many people who live nearby are going to share the same unit to tune multiple cars? How many shops would buy one only to charge dyno time to use their programmer? Did anyone ever think of that? If you were the owner of a business trying to pay the bills, wouldn't this concern you? Think about that one for a while.

Saying that I still do fully expect to see this in the future and hope we do. It would be very nice. Due to this, don't expect it to be a couple of hundred dollars. Expect $600+ just for a little box that plugs in. That's what I'd charge.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

No programmer works that way - they store the vin number in the programmer and if you hook it up to a car with a different vin number, it will not work

... these things have been out for years now...

rotarygod

Then that just means that once again someone will bitch and moan about it. See, you just can't make everyone happy.

therm8

Close to the point here...

I mail in my ecu (overnight) @ $30+ with insurance.
I rent a car so I can work @ $30-40/day depending on the season.
RB takes the allotted 2 days to flash, then overnights it back to me @ $30+ with insurance.
I return the rental, and go about my business. $420

But then I think of all the overnight packages that actually show up at my door the next day...(extra $30-40). Then if RB takes an extra day...etc etc etc.

This isn't a service anyone "wanted." We "wanted" a flash tuner, not a flash tune. Many will content themselves with a flash tune, "wanted" or not. $4-500 for 10hp or less (I have a 4port), with the hassle of paying to drive some POS rental and dealing with the slightly inept USPS sounds like a losing proposition to me. I'd rather buy a piggyback and deal with those hassles instead. At least I'd learn something in the process.

With the capability to flash the ecu, I'd like to see them offer something of use to me, but the send it to us and we'll give you a little bit of usefulness offers them the easy road to taking your money. RB diehards are like Honda diehards, they won't buy anything else, and RB relies on that, imo. And that's fine. They produce a high quality, if middle of the road product. But all the pro RB propoganda spewed on this board is rather humorous.

-------------

And on a totally different subject (RB's rotary experience)... Name one product that RB produces for the 8 where their rotary experience is really a factor. Intake/exhaust tuning are pretty much the same, piston or rotary (acoustics are acoustics, and pulses are pulses). You just have to realize that a rotary acts a little differently. Suspension mods?? Cooler screens? Ecu flash? Nothing.

mysql101

I don't know if I see anyone here REALLY bitching about it. Some are just unsastified with the transport mechanism.

If I didn't have a turbo kit in my garage, I would be all over this in a heart beat. It really is great news. Something I've been waiting for a long time. Now that companies are starting to offer flash services, it's only a matter of time till we see others on the market that can meet the demands of those with more selective tastes.

rotarygod

I think it's pretty safe to say that you do not speak for everyone. You almost imply that you do. You didn't want a flash. You wanted a programmer. You are helping me to prove that no one mod will make everyone happy. This isn't for you and it should not be purchased by you. Simple as that. It won't hurt anyone's feelings.

If you don't have a second car to drive, can't arrange to borrow one, can't arrange to catch a ride with a friend/relative, etc... again this is your problem. Not RB's. They didn't give YOU what you wanted. Oh well. It looks like you'll keep waiting until something comes out that does do what you want. Nothing wrong with that.

pianoman

" It must come with a dyno"



RG you forgot that it can't void the warranty.

mysql101

piano, why would you think this can't void the warranty? The end result is that you're changing the fuel delivery, timing, etc. from factory.

hogcar

Lightened Rotor Assembly
RX-8 Renesis Engine

Our RX-8 Lightened Rotor Assemblies are machined lightened using a CNC (computer numerically controlled) mill. These rotors are based on the stock RX-8 rotors and the initial weight of each rotor is approximately 9.2 pounds, and upon completion of the machining process the weight is reduced to approximately 9.0 pounds.

Jim Mederer, Racing Beat's co-founder and chief engineer, addresses the benefits of lightening the rotors in a high-performance or boosted engine application:

"Bearing loads in a rotary engine are primarily the result of two forces - centrifugal force and combustion gas loads. At low RPM, gas loads are the majority of the total load on the bearings. However, at high RPMs, centrifugal loads predominate since they increase proportional to the square of the RPM. Since it is desirable to continue to use most or all of the stock RPM range, the only way to decrease that bearing load is to reduce the mass (weight) of the rotors. Mazda has already lightened the rotors significantly on the Renesis engine, so we were not able to make further large reductions in rotor weight, but we did what we could in developing the RX8 Lightened Rotors. Since boosting (mechanical or turbo supercharger) always increases gas loads, anything you can do to reduce centrifugal loads is guaranteed to improve bearing life AND reduce flexing of the eccentric shaft - both helpful to reliability."
click here.

The Racing Beat machining process involves the installation of a snap ring between the rotor gear and the basic rotor to prevent the rotor gear from working away from the basic rotor at higher RPM. The ring gear is removed using a hydraulic press, and then an indexing groove is cut into both the rotor and the ring gear. A snap-ring is placed into the groove on the ring gear, and the assembly is placed into the rotor. Once the snap-ring expands into the groove on the rotor, the ring gear is permanently seated onto the rotor.

rotarygod

He was being sarcastic. It was something that I should have added to my wish list.

zoom44

does the rb flash come with the lost picaso option? i hope so picasso is one of my favorites

pianoman

RG said he was going to make a product that made everone happy, and there is always the one that has to ask "will it void my warranty"


I was just agreeing with RG on the fact that people want everything tailored for their specific needs.

Whats better 5hp for $600 or 15-20hp for $300

mysql101

ahh. Okay. I was shaking my head there for a moment

Clearly 5hp is better, since the people buying the 15 hp mod can't afford it.

therm8

Ok you got me on that one. Too bad it's utterly useless for 99.9% of Rx-8 drivers out there.


And no one is expecting a $150 do it all solution. It would easily sell at $800-1500, in the current market (which is ridiculously overpriced...the market, that is).

therm8

Well, I'm happy I could help you prove your point. But no one wants a subpar solution. The fact that some are happy with this one, doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer a proper solution. Maybe I was speaking for everyone, and that's probably the wrong way to do it, but I'm willing to bet that I'm speaking for the majority. There are extremely few tuning companies that require a mail-in to get a flash done. Hell even the Swedes get a flash tuner now, and those ecus have always been a PITA to mod (desoldering chips for one). Given their capabilities with the ecu, so much more could be offered to the community. But as I said earlier in the thread, RB cares about the bottom line first, and community 2nd. And that's their perogative. This is the easiest way to pad their accounts, and requires minimal R&D effort on their part. That's business.

pianoman

Considering the amount of money it takes to modify this vehicle, 300 is a steal.
This is comming from a guy whose used to cars where 5 dollars at home depot can net you 20hp in gains.

For those that think 3 days downtime is bad, own a dsm for a month.

I know in the DSM community we send in our ecu's unless you have an eprom burner, and can socket the board

Evo's send in theirs,

JWT requires you to send in your ecu.

rotarygod

It being a subpar solution is your opinion. If you can imply that your preferences are the will of the majority, so can I. This will make most people happy. Who's to say you're any more right with an opinion than I am? It is going to make many people happy and some of them have already posted here. Tell them it's subpar and then make them believe it.

You think RB hasn't put much effort into this? You may feel that some people give them too much credit but you don't give them nearly enough. They've been trying to get this done for at least 2 years now. They've been working on various header designs and configurations for a couple of years now too. Are you going to claim that they are nothing more than welded pipes? Wake up. At least go see the place for yourself. Your opinion of them will change.

If this is so easy, I want you personally to give the community the solution they, or in this case you seek.

therm8

It is subpar in certain contexts. For me, the ability to flash the pcm means that I can have a plug and play FI kit. In this context, it is very subpar. It is my opinion, and I freely admit that, but I'm sure it is many other's opinion as well. I'd be very happy to win $100k in the next powerball drawing, but what I want is the $70+million. Maybe it's my days of turbo cars that have influenced my opionions of NA flashes. Maybe I'm just stubborn. But I've waited this long, so I'll keep my $500 and wait a while longer.


The R&D is insignificant when compared to them developing a hand-held, end user tunable, CAN bus compatible flash device (other companies have already done this R&D as their business focus is pcms, they just don't have the software figured out). That doesn't mean that RB hasn't put much effort into it. I was simply stating that they did just enough from a business standpoint (and that's what businesses do). You are reading too much into my statements out of a need to defend the company. I'm not downing them in any way, just stating what I percieve to be true. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I applaud their efforts thus far, but feel that they are only halfway there. I imagine the superchargers and turbos that could come to market quickly with this capability, and regret that it'll be several more weeks/months before a truly useful solution can help these kits come to fruition.

Give me RB's staff, facilities and income and I'll get right on it. I'd gladly swap jobs with the Jims, as I'm sure anyone here would. What better job could there be?


BTW, Who said it's easy?

-I'm in the arguing mood today, if no one's noticed.

therm8

Ease up on the hair trigger and read the rest of the arguement. Then lay into me if you like.

zoom44

im just realy distracted by your avatar and keep wondering what it would be like animated.


since RB has already done remapped pcm flash tuning for turbocharged and supercharged rx-8s for various reasons there is no reason they couldnt offer a tune for those applications. where did it mention they wouldnt? kit arrives you send your ecu off for the tune while you do the install the ecu should be back just as you finish the install.

rotarygod

Just remember, those who can, do. Those who can't, make excuses, complain and criticize the efforts of those who did.

therm8

I read it in one of these threads. Can't find it atm. Seems like too much liability for them to take on to me. Who's going to let someone tune their turbo/supercharger without ever having laid eyes on the car or kit? Besides, no one here will sell a supercharger kit without their own pcm solution.

or didn't as the case may be

strong bad

I think the difference here is that this flash isn't regarded as a solution to begin with. It's just an alternative for those who wish to free up a couple ponies while keeping it simple.

therm8, perhaps you're evaluating this product as if it were meant to be the solution for EMS. Or that, because RB did not allow for end user programming, they fell short of an apparent goal. I'm not tryin to put words in your mouth, so if I'm wrong..correct me.

I was under the impression that this flash was for N/A cars.. at least for the time being. As an N/A mod, it's unfair to expect this to please anybody with a turbo/blower, or those who plan to go that route in the future. It may not be adequate for those who want to fully customize their tune or add boost, but that's not to say it's a subpar alternative because it fails to achieve something it never sought out to do.

Again, I say that I am not a Racing Beat fanboy.. and personally, I'd rather have an option that offers a programmable unit. I chimed in because I felt some of the criticisms were only about trying to point out everything this unit IS NOT...when in actuality I think RB is merely offering another option out there. Like I said, engine management has come a long way.. no one mod can please everyone. So with each new product out there, that's one more group of individuals with which it can serve.