NA upgrades gains
12-25-2010, 02:12 AM
#1
2005 Briliant Black GT
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NA upgrades gains
So I know all this information is floating around, but piecing it together and doing my own guesstimations isn't quite what I am looking for. So about a year and a half ago I sold my RX8 before I went to Afghanistan, when I came back I resumed using my old sedan and bought an rx7FD that I have in pieces in my garage, but I am thinking about selling both and going back.
So here's the thing, I am trying to figure out what kind of hp gains I can get out of a few easy install NA upgrades, which include an exhaust, midpipe, intake, and Cobb Ap. I don't want to go FI because I want to keep the longevity morso intact. So with those few mods what would you say I would gain over stock with both Preloads on the AP and a tuned AP?
Yes I understand that which exhaust i plan on getting plays a part as well as intake and MP. Try to use the average gains observed for each system factored together + an AP.
So here's the thing, I am trying to figure out what kind of hp gains I can get out of a few easy install NA upgrades, which include an exhaust, midpipe, intake, and Cobb Ap. I don't want to go FI because I want to keep the longevity morso intact. So with those few mods what would you say I would gain over stock with both Preloads on the AP and a tuned AP?
Yes I understand that which exhaust i plan on getting plays a part as well as intake and MP. Try to use the average gains observed for each system factored together + an AP.
12-25-2010, 02:19 AM
#2
depending on your setup, you may be able to break the 200whp with a properly tuned (AP) engine. It's not impossible, but people are generally seeing 190-200whp.
As you stated, this info is floating around a lot. Noise, style and gains are all factors. Decide what's best for you!
Good luck
As you stated, this info is floating around a lot. Noise, style and gains are all factors. Decide what's best for you!
Good luck
12-25-2010, 08:11 AM
#3
2005 MT -- No Mods - Baseline dyno 171 hp
Following dyno's have a nitrous run on them as well ... if you can't figure out which pull that is ... well ... you need more help than I can offer
Same dyno 2009 -- Mods: Cobb AP, RB Intake + Ram Air, BHR Coils, Underdrive pulley, RP highflow cat, RB lightened Flywheel, MSD Wires, RB Catback exhaust,
Same set up except I removed the high flow cat and put in a cat delete midpipe. Different dyno too so .... meh yeah
In the end you can see that I was hitting 189 hp with the high flow cat and without the high flow cat ...
However the DynoJet is a Drum inertia style dyno and the last one was a Hub style continuous resistance dyno (or something).
The first two are the important ones as they where done on the same dyno ... so it's the most apples to apples comparison.
Following dyno's have a nitrous run on them as well ... if you can't figure out which pull that is ... well ... you need more help than I can offer
Same dyno 2009 -- Mods: Cobb AP, RB Intake + Ram Air, BHR Coils, Underdrive pulley, RP highflow cat, RB lightened Flywheel, MSD Wires, RB Catback exhaust,
Same set up except I removed the high flow cat and put in a cat delete midpipe. Different dyno too so .... meh yeah
In the end you can see that I was hitting 189 hp with the high flow cat and without the high flow cat ...
However the DynoJet is a Drum inertia style dyno and the last one was a Hub style continuous resistance dyno (or something).
The first two are the important ones as they where done on the same dyno ... so it's the most apples to apples comparison.
Last edited by wcs; 12-25-2010 at 08:30 AM.
12-25-2010, 08:24 AM
#4
Oh I would like to also add....
I would never do NA mods again on the RX8, just leave it.
I spent a boat load of cash for what .... 18 HP?????
If I did it all over again .... decide whether or not to go Nitrous, Turbo/SC or stay NA
1) Cobb AP and Turbo plus support mods
2) Cobb AP, SC plus supporting mods
3) Cobb AP Nitrous, BHR Coils, Cat delete mid-pipe
4) NA - Just leave it alone ... save your cash for beer you crazy *******
I would never do NA mods again on the RX8, just leave it.
I spent a boat load of cash for what .... 18 HP?????
If I did it all over again .... decide whether or not to go Nitrous, Turbo/SC or stay NA
1) Cobb AP and Turbo plus support mods
2) Cobb AP, SC plus supporting mods
3) Cobb AP Nitrous, BHR Coils, Cat delete mid-pipe
4) NA - Just leave it alone ... save your cash for beer you crazy *******
12-26-2010, 10:50 AM
#5
Registered
Here is most likely the biggest numbers you could find if you spent waaaay too much money to keep the motor "stock". Custom headers. .93 tune (about 13.6 A/F), -11 plugs, Sunoco 98 fuel, FRESH build motor, no tricky stuff on the inside at all, very, very, very, very hot pulls. Most weekend warriors will have differences in thier dyno sheets of several hp. This is an indiciation of the drivetrain not fully warmed up. Typically when you continue to heat soak the drive train you will continue to gain 1 more hp, another hp, another hp until all the torque and dyno curves overlay themselves. This works until the intake air temp increases and the power sligthly falls off (the entire curve shifts downward a bit). Max power pulls come with a hot diff and trans and oil temp (we find 220-225F make the most power and still be safe). If you can heat the diff to over 140F (which is about impossible with a street car exhuast) you will make more power.
The dyno chart below shows both 4th and 5th gear at .93 lambda. An honest 220 hp in 5th will require proper headers, mufflers and exhaust, a new motor or a proper rebuild, clean plugs, a very highly tuned motor with investment in a tuner or higher end engine management, intake testing (different intakes make DIFFERENT power in DIFFERENT rpm ranges). This is a lean tune to show high power. It won't last on a race motor very long---but it makes a ton of power. EGT's run about 1,700 peak at WOT and this kills the motor---too much heat (but you make a ton of power).
Note in the rpm range where the power is. Note where the hp and trq curves are headed at 8,400 rpm. They are headed South. Done. Max power on these things (for our tune) is to shift about 8,600-8,700 rpms. Above this is stupid because there is less power. Stupid. Take time to study where the power is on this graph and understand how much your rpms drop when you shift. This is all part of the equation.
My team has literally hundreds and hundreds and hundres of pulls on a chassis dyno (properly maintained dynojet). I know this because I operate the dyno and have stood down in the dyno pit and spent time with this dude. I've even got keys to the dyno shop so I hope you guys here me knowing what I'm talking about. We have a LOT of money invested in finding power in these crazy cars. Way too much. To run up front with a low torque motor in the fast road racing ranks you need to squeeze every last drop of power out of these dudes. These are not Turbo or Super or piston motors that can more easily make power. The crazy Renesis is near maxed out as it comes from the factory. There are NOT huge gains available like a piston motor. I think we've been through about 24 or more rebuilds on the Renesis over the past 3 years. Maybe more. I stopped counting after 18 last year. Probably near 30 now that I think about it. Strong springs and a solid seal to sealing surface contact area will yield the most power. The hard parts on these engines need to be cherry to make the most power. This is why higher mileage motors don't make as much power. Fact. When the proper engine builders on this forum quote you a price for a rebuild that you think is excessive there is a reason why they do this. Sort of like if you were re-roofing your house---would you use new shingles or used shingles? You get what you pay for. New rotor housings and irons make more power period. Period. If there is power in porting I have yet to see it. Porting is illegal in both Grand-Am and SCCA Pro World Challenge so we try to max out performance in other areas----like weight of the car, flywheel and clutch moment of inertia and freely spinning drivetrain, hubs, differential, trans. All of these things are components of making power so you'll want to look at them if chasing a high number. We have found heat to be the limitation to these motors. The more lean the tune the higher the power and the less she will live. I have not heard many stories (let alone success stories) about porting these engines. The advise I've heard from the factory Mazda race teams is to steer away from these efforts as they will hurt reliability during the race. A motor that konks out during the race and makes 20 more hp is one that finished BEHIND a stock motor.
Fuel injectors. Some of you will hear that cleaning your fuel injectors is the super secret hot ticket for that double secret hp advantage. This is somewhat true. What you want to do is have your injectors MEASURED to see what they flow. Luckily our experience with the Denso injectors has revealed some good consistancy. Once a season we will flow (not clean---cleaning is easy) to see what injectors are flowing THE SAME. I would say 80% of ours flow the same numbers with the balance flowing lower than the majority. You want to use those that flow the same otherwise you could have some big assumptions at work. Most cars don't use EGT to tune or even measure individual rotor performance----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't measure or tinker with fuel pressure----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't frequently pull plugs and inspect plugs---high end engine tuners will and can do. Ask them to do this or do it yourself. Use a clean air filter. Get your intake air source from OUTSIDE your engine bay. This is rookie 101 stuff. If you want a pretty engine go to the beauty pagent and enter in the "I'd rather look pretty than make power category". Buy a set of good plug wires. Have a new set of stock coil packs at the dyno and do a before and after---same for plugs. You will be shocked at the differences. Try 3 quick pulls on the dyno and record the data. Then do about 30 more and watch your power creep up and up and up. Check it out. Most people will be like "ooooh man, I could'nt beleive there was that much more power just sitting there waiting to get recorded". Hopefully you will experiment and find this out for yourself. If you do, spread the word and educate your fellow forum readers. There is waaay too much disinformation out here spread by rookie car enthusiasts that learn everything people who like to run their mouth. Be a good student. Ask for data. Asking someone to prove their claims is how you do it kids. It's not argumentative, it's how you flush out the BS from the fact.
Something that will not show up as power for you is a different rear end gear (or ring and pinion gear). We run the Mazda 5.12 and it spins like a rascal. All the SpeedSource Renesis cars were built with a 5.12. Both Grand-Am and W.C. spec the 5.12 rear gear. This higher ratio allows fewer rpm drop so you can stay in the power better than a lower rear gear (which is better for hwy mpg). The 5.12 is over $1,200 for the street crowd not including install but keeps you in the power waaay better than any other gear available. If you have raced anything with a motor before than you know this. If you don't please understand that its not just about how much power an engine makes. For example, if you could ONLY drive your car in 3rd gear and made 400 hp, you would not have lots of options---right? Gears give you more options which is why close ratio gear boxes provide performance advantages. With the stock 04-08 trans we can hit 151 mph at 9,200 rpm in 6th at Daytona in the draft. About 8 or so mph less when we are cutting wind all by ourself. 9,200 because your flat out from the bus stop and just standing on the gas 100% for what feels like hours.
Hopefully this has shed light into the capability of a stock motor. I probably have $30K invested in high end, very professional engine management and you could get close with some of the offerings from these vendors on this site and even closer with a Motec. We are talking single digit hp differences here. I suspect our tune over some of these available is worth 5 peak hp and advantages come in other areas not related to peak power and too complex to share on this forum.
I would close in saying that you could get to an honest 200 with different engine managment, a smart intake and exhuast and a clean, fresh motor. Possibly 205 if you invest in custom, proper exhaust headers (not RB). 210 in 5th gear if you leaned her out and spent 20 minutes or more heating up the drivetrain on the dyno. As I've said before in other threads, there is more power on the dyno when you heat the car up then most people realize. Anytime you see a dyno sheet and the differences in power for the 3 runs represented is more than 5 hp the dyno customer is not doing it properly. Done properly almost all of your dyno curves will overlay each other. 3 pulls are for street rookies. We will do about 30 or more hard pulls before we start measuring anything. 30. 30. Why? Because there is about a 10 hp difference from the very first pulls you make and the ones that make the most power. So.......understand what and how your measuring to better put into perspective the data your looking at.
Happy rotoring sports fans. See you at the track.
The dyno chart below shows both 4th and 5th gear at .93 lambda. An honest 220 hp in 5th will require proper headers, mufflers and exhaust, a new motor or a proper rebuild, clean plugs, a very highly tuned motor with investment in a tuner or higher end engine management, intake testing (different intakes make DIFFERENT power in DIFFERENT rpm ranges). This is a lean tune to show high power. It won't last on a race motor very long---but it makes a ton of power. EGT's run about 1,700 peak at WOT and this kills the motor---too much heat (but you make a ton of power).
Note in the rpm range where the power is. Note where the hp and trq curves are headed at 8,400 rpm. They are headed South. Done. Max power on these things (for our tune) is to shift about 8,600-8,700 rpms. Above this is stupid because there is less power. Stupid. Take time to study where the power is on this graph and understand how much your rpms drop when you shift. This is all part of the equation.
My team has literally hundreds and hundreds and hundres of pulls on a chassis dyno (properly maintained dynojet). I know this because I operate the dyno and have stood down in the dyno pit and spent time with this dude. I've even got keys to the dyno shop so I hope you guys here me knowing what I'm talking about. We have a LOT of money invested in finding power in these crazy cars. Way too much. To run up front with a low torque motor in the fast road racing ranks you need to squeeze every last drop of power out of these dudes. These are not Turbo or Super or piston motors that can more easily make power. The crazy Renesis is near maxed out as it comes from the factory. There are NOT huge gains available like a piston motor. I think we've been through about 24 or more rebuilds on the Renesis over the past 3 years. Maybe more. I stopped counting after 18 last year. Probably near 30 now that I think about it. Strong springs and a solid seal to sealing surface contact area will yield the most power. The hard parts on these engines need to be cherry to make the most power. This is why higher mileage motors don't make as much power. Fact. When the proper engine builders on this forum quote you a price for a rebuild that you think is excessive there is a reason why they do this. Sort of like if you were re-roofing your house---would you use new shingles or used shingles? You get what you pay for. New rotor housings and irons make more power period. Period. If there is power in porting I have yet to see it. Porting is illegal in both Grand-Am and SCCA Pro World Challenge so we try to max out performance in other areas----like weight of the car, flywheel and clutch moment of inertia and freely spinning drivetrain, hubs, differential, trans. All of these things are components of making power so you'll want to look at them if chasing a high number. We have found heat to be the limitation to these motors. The more lean the tune the higher the power and the less she will live. I have not heard many stories (let alone success stories) about porting these engines. The advise I've heard from the factory Mazda race teams is to steer away from these efforts as they will hurt reliability during the race. A motor that konks out during the race and makes 20 more hp is one that finished BEHIND a stock motor.
Fuel injectors. Some of you will hear that cleaning your fuel injectors is the super secret hot ticket for that double secret hp advantage. This is somewhat true. What you want to do is have your injectors MEASURED to see what they flow. Luckily our experience with the Denso injectors has revealed some good consistancy. Once a season we will flow (not clean---cleaning is easy) to see what injectors are flowing THE SAME. I would say 80% of ours flow the same numbers with the balance flowing lower than the majority. You want to use those that flow the same otherwise you could have some big assumptions at work. Most cars don't use EGT to tune or even measure individual rotor performance----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't measure or tinker with fuel pressure----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't frequently pull plugs and inspect plugs---high end engine tuners will and can do. Ask them to do this or do it yourself. Use a clean air filter. Get your intake air source from OUTSIDE your engine bay. This is rookie 101 stuff. If you want a pretty engine go to the beauty pagent and enter in the "I'd rather look pretty than make power category". Buy a set of good plug wires. Have a new set of stock coil packs at the dyno and do a before and after---same for plugs. You will be shocked at the differences. Try 3 quick pulls on the dyno and record the data. Then do about 30 more and watch your power creep up and up and up. Check it out. Most people will be like "ooooh man, I could'nt beleive there was that much more power just sitting there waiting to get recorded". Hopefully you will experiment and find this out for yourself. If you do, spread the word and educate your fellow forum readers. There is waaay too much disinformation out here spread by rookie car enthusiasts that learn everything people who like to run their mouth. Be a good student. Ask for data. Asking someone to prove their claims is how you do it kids. It's not argumentative, it's how you flush out the BS from the fact.
Something that will not show up as power for you is a different rear end gear (or ring and pinion gear). We run the Mazda 5.12 and it spins like a rascal. All the SpeedSource Renesis cars were built with a 5.12. Both Grand-Am and W.C. spec the 5.12 rear gear. This higher ratio allows fewer rpm drop so you can stay in the power better than a lower rear gear (which is better for hwy mpg). The 5.12 is over $1,200 for the street crowd not including install but keeps you in the power waaay better than any other gear available. If you have raced anything with a motor before than you know this. If you don't please understand that its not just about how much power an engine makes. For example, if you could ONLY drive your car in 3rd gear and made 400 hp, you would not have lots of options---right? Gears give you more options which is why close ratio gear boxes provide performance advantages. With the stock 04-08 trans we can hit 151 mph at 9,200 rpm in 6th at Daytona in the draft. About 8 or so mph less when we are cutting wind all by ourself. 9,200 because your flat out from the bus stop and just standing on the gas 100% for what feels like hours.
Hopefully this has shed light into the capability of a stock motor. I probably have $30K invested in high end, very professional engine management and you could get close with some of the offerings from these vendors on this site and even closer with a Motec. We are talking single digit hp differences here. I suspect our tune over some of these available is worth 5 peak hp and advantages come in other areas not related to peak power and too complex to share on this forum.
I would close in saying that you could get to an honest 200 with different engine managment, a smart intake and exhuast and a clean, fresh motor. Possibly 205 if you invest in custom, proper exhaust headers (not RB). 210 in 5th gear if you leaned her out and spent 20 minutes or more heating up the drivetrain on the dyno. As I've said before in other threads, there is more power on the dyno when you heat the car up then most people realize. Anytime you see a dyno sheet and the differences in power for the 3 runs represented is more than 5 hp the dyno customer is not doing it properly. Done properly almost all of your dyno curves will overlay each other. 3 pulls are for street rookies. We will do about 30 or more hard pulls before we start measuring anything. 30. 30. Why? Because there is about a 10 hp difference from the very first pulls you make and the ones that make the most power. So.......understand what and how your measuring to better put into perspective the data your looking at.
Happy rotoring sports fans. See you at the track.
12-26-2010, 10:59 AM
#6
Registered
Update: We have found lower EGT's and much longer engine power longevity (side seal spring life) with a fatter tune. Currently our cars run a .89 Lambda tune and make about 208 in 4th gear on their first initial warm up pulls. This increases as heat in the drive train increases. A fresh motor with this tune (for us) ends up pulling about 212-215 in 4th gear. Lower power but less heat which allows these engines to last longer.
Cheers,
Cheers,
12-26-2010, 11:55 AM
#9
Registered
12-26-2010, 12:17 PM
#11
Here is most likely the biggest numbers you could find if you spent waaaay too much money to keep the motor "stock". Custom headers. .93 tune (about 13.6 A/F), -11 plugs, Sunoco 98 fuel, FRESH build motor, no tricky stuff on the inside at all, very, very, very, very hot pulls. Most weekend warriors will have differences in thier dyno sheets of several hp. This is an indiciation of the drivetrain not fully warmed up. Typically when you continue to heat soak the drive train you will continue to gain 1 more hp, another hp, another hp until all the torque and dyno curves overlay themselves. This works until the intake air temp increases and the power sligthly falls off (the entire curve shifts downward a bit). Max power pulls come with a hot diff and trans and oil temp (we find 220-225F make the most power and still be safe). If you can heat the diff to over 140F (which is about impossible with a street car exhuast) you will make more power.
The dyno chart below shows both 4th and 5th gear at .93 lambda. An honest 220 hp in 5th will require proper headers, mufflers and exhaust, a new motor or a proper rebuild, clean plugs, a very highly tuned motor with investment in a tuner or higher end engine management, intake testing (different intakes make DIFFERENT power in DIFFERENT rpm ranges). This is a lean tune to show high power. It won't last on a race motor very long---but it makes a ton of power. EGT's run about 1,700 peak at WOT and this kills the motor---too much heat (but you make a ton of power).
Note in the rpm range where the power is. Note where the hp and trq curves are headed at 8,400 rpm. They are headed South. Done. Max power on these things (for our tune) is to shift about 8,600-8,700 rpms. Above this is stupid because there is less power. Stupid. Take time to study where the power is on this graph and understand how much your rpms drop when you shift. This is all part of the equation.
My team has literally hundreds and hundreds and hundres of pulls on a chassis dyno (properly maintained dynojet). I know this because I operate the dyno and have stood down in the dyno pit and spent time with this dude. I've even got keys to the dyno shop so I hope you guys here me knowing what I'm talking about. We have a LOT of money invested in finding power in these crazy cars. Way too much. To run up front with a low torque motor in the fast road racing ranks you need to squeeze every last drop of power out of these dudes. These are not Turbo or Super or piston motors that can more easily make power. The crazy Renesis is near maxed out as it comes from the factory. There are NOT huge gains available like a piston motor. I think we've been through about 24 or more rebuilds on the Renesis over the past 3 years. Maybe more. I stopped counting after 18 last year. Probably near 30 now that I think about it. Strong springs and a solid seal to sealing surface contact area will yield the most power. The hard parts on these engines need to be cherry to make the most power. This is why higher mileage motors don't make as much power. Fact. When the proper engine builders on this forum quote you a price for a rebuild that you think is excessive there is a reason why they do this. Sort of like if you were re-roofing your house---would you use new shingles or used shingles? You get what you pay for. New rotor housings and irons make more power period. Period. If there is power in porting I have yet to see it. Porting is illegal in both Grand-Am and SCCA Pro World Challenge so we try to max out performance in other areas----like weight of the car, flywheel and clutch moment of inertia and freely spinning drivetrain, hubs, differential, trans. All of these things are components of making power so you'll want to look at them if chasing a high number. We have found heat to be the limitation to these motors. The more lean the tune the higher the power and the less she will live. I have not heard many stories (let alone success stories) about porting these engines. The advise I've heard from the factory Mazda race teams is to steer away from these efforts as they will hurt reliability during the race. A motor that konks out during the race and makes 20 more hp is one that finished BEHIND a stock motor.
Fuel injectors. Some of you will hear that cleaning your fuel injectors is the super secret hot ticket for that double secret hp advantage. This is somewhat true. What you want to do is have your injectors MEASURED to see what they flow. Luckily our experience with the Denso injectors has revealed some good consistancy. Once a season we will flow (not clean---cleaning is easy) to see what injectors are flowing THE SAME. I would say 80% of ours flow the same numbers with the balance flowing lower than the majority. You want to use those that flow the same otherwise you could have some big assumptions at work. Most cars don't use EGT to tune or even measure individual rotor performance----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't measure or tinker with fuel pressure----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't frequently pull plugs and inspect plugs---high end engine tuners will and can do. Ask them to do this or do it yourself. Use a clean air filter. Get your intake air source from OUTSIDE your engine bay. This is rookie 101 stuff. If you want a pretty engine go to the beauty pagent and enter in the "I'd rather look pretty than make power category". Buy a set of good plug wires. Have a new set of stock coil packs at the dyno and do a before and after---same for plugs. You will be shocked at the differences. Try 3 quick pulls on the dyno and record the data. Then do about 30 more and watch your power creep up and up and up. Check it out. Most people will be like "ooooh man, I could'nt beleive there was that much more power just sitting there waiting to get recorded". Hopefully you will experiment and find this out for yourself. If you do, spread the word and educate your fellow forum readers. There is waaay too much disinformation out here spread by rookie car enthusiasts that learn everything people who like to run their mouth. Be a good student. Ask for data. Asking someone to prove their claims is how you do it kids. It's not argumentative, it's how you flush out the BS from the fact.
Something that will not show up as power for you is a different rear end gear (or ring and pinion gear). We run the Mazda 5.12 and it spins like a rascal. All the SpeedSource Renesis cars were built with a 5.12. Both Grand-Am and W.C. spec the 5.12 rear gear. This higher ratio allows fewer rpm drop so you can stay in the power better than a lower rear gear (which is better for hwy mpg). The 5.12 is over $1,200 for the street crowd not including install but keeps you in the power waaay better than any other gear available. If you have raced anything with a motor before than you know this. If you don't please understand that its not just about how much power an engine makes. For example, if you could ONLY drive your car in 3rd gear and made 400 hp, you would not have lots of options---right? Gears give you more options which is why close ratio gear boxes provide performance advantages. With the stock 04-08 trans we can hit 151 mph at 9,200 rpm in 6th at Daytona in the draft. About 8 or so mph less when we are cutting wind all by ourself. 9,200 because your flat out from the bus stop and just standing on the gas 100% for what feels like hours.
Hopefully this has shed light into the capability of a stock motor. I probably have $30K invested in high end, very professional engine management and you could get close with some of the offerings from these vendors on this site and even closer with a Motec. We are talking single digit hp differences here. I suspect our tune over some of these available is worth 5 peak hp and advantages come in other areas not related to peak power and too complex to share on this forum.
I would close in saying that you could get to an honest 200 with different engine managment, a smart intake and exhuast and a clean, fresh motor. Possibly 205 if you invest in custom, proper exhaust headers (not RB). 210 in 5th gear if you leaned her out and spent 20 minutes or more heating up the drivetrain on the dyno. As I've said before in other threads, there is more power on the dyno when you heat the car up then most people realize. Anytime you see a dyno sheet and the differences in power for the 3 runs represented is more than 5 hp the dyno customer is not doing it properly. Done properly almost all of your dyno curves will overlay each other. 3 pulls are for street rookies. We will do about 30 or more hard pulls before we start measuring anything. 30. 30. Why? Because there is about a 10 hp difference from the very first pulls you make and the ones that make the most power. So.......understand what and how your measuring to better put into perspective the data your looking at.
Happy rotoring sports fans. See you at the track.
The dyno chart below shows both 4th and 5th gear at .93 lambda. An honest 220 hp in 5th will require proper headers, mufflers and exhaust, a new motor or a proper rebuild, clean plugs, a very highly tuned motor with investment in a tuner or higher end engine management, intake testing (different intakes make DIFFERENT power in DIFFERENT rpm ranges). This is a lean tune to show high power. It won't last on a race motor very long---but it makes a ton of power. EGT's run about 1,700 peak at WOT and this kills the motor---too much heat (but you make a ton of power).
Note in the rpm range where the power is. Note where the hp and trq curves are headed at 8,400 rpm. They are headed South. Done. Max power on these things (for our tune) is to shift about 8,600-8,700 rpms. Above this is stupid because there is less power. Stupid. Take time to study where the power is on this graph and understand how much your rpms drop when you shift. This is all part of the equation.
My team has literally hundreds and hundreds and hundres of pulls on a chassis dyno (properly maintained dynojet). I know this because I operate the dyno and have stood down in the dyno pit and spent time with this dude. I've even got keys to the dyno shop so I hope you guys here me knowing what I'm talking about. We have a LOT of money invested in finding power in these crazy cars. Way too much. To run up front with a low torque motor in the fast road racing ranks you need to squeeze every last drop of power out of these dudes. These are not Turbo or Super or piston motors that can more easily make power. The crazy Renesis is near maxed out as it comes from the factory. There are NOT huge gains available like a piston motor. I think we've been through about 24 or more rebuilds on the Renesis over the past 3 years. Maybe more. I stopped counting after 18 last year. Probably near 30 now that I think about it. Strong springs and a solid seal to sealing surface contact area will yield the most power. The hard parts on these engines need to be cherry to make the most power. This is why higher mileage motors don't make as much power. Fact. When the proper engine builders on this forum quote you a price for a rebuild that you think is excessive there is a reason why they do this. Sort of like if you were re-roofing your house---would you use new shingles or used shingles? You get what you pay for. New rotor housings and irons make more power period. Period. If there is power in porting I have yet to see it. Porting is illegal in both Grand-Am and SCCA Pro World Challenge so we try to max out performance in other areas----like weight of the car, flywheel and clutch moment of inertia and freely spinning drivetrain, hubs, differential, trans. All of these things are components of making power so you'll want to look at them if chasing a high number. We have found heat to be the limitation to these motors. The more lean the tune the higher the power and the less she will live. I have not heard many stories (let alone success stories) about porting these engines. The advise I've heard from the factory Mazda race teams is to steer away from these efforts as they will hurt reliability during the race. A motor that konks out during the race and makes 20 more hp is one that finished BEHIND a stock motor.
Fuel injectors. Some of you will hear that cleaning your fuel injectors is the super secret hot ticket for that double secret hp advantage. This is somewhat true. What you want to do is have your injectors MEASURED to see what they flow. Luckily our experience with the Denso injectors has revealed some good consistancy. Once a season we will flow (not clean---cleaning is easy) to see what injectors are flowing THE SAME. I would say 80% of ours flow the same numbers with the balance flowing lower than the majority. You want to use those that flow the same otherwise you could have some big assumptions at work. Most cars don't use EGT to tune or even measure individual rotor performance----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't measure or tinker with fuel pressure----high end engine tuners do. Most cars don't frequently pull plugs and inspect plugs---high end engine tuners will and can do. Ask them to do this or do it yourself. Use a clean air filter. Get your intake air source from OUTSIDE your engine bay. This is rookie 101 stuff. If you want a pretty engine go to the beauty pagent and enter in the "I'd rather look pretty than make power category". Buy a set of good plug wires. Have a new set of stock coil packs at the dyno and do a before and after---same for plugs. You will be shocked at the differences. Try 3 quick pulls on the dyno and record the data. Then do about 30 more and watch your power creep up and up and up. Check it out. Most people will be like "ooooh man, I could'nt beleive there was that much more power just sitting there waiting to get recorded". Hopefully you will experiment and find this out for yourself. If you do, spread the word and educate your fellow forum readers. There is waaay too much disinformation out here spread by rookie car enthusiasts that learn everything people who like to run their mouth. Be a good student. Ask for data. Asking someone to prove their claims is how you do it kids. It's not argumentative, it's how you flush out the BS from the fact.
Something that will not show up as power for you is a different rear end gear (or ring and pinion gear). We run the Mazda 5.12 and it spins like a rascal. All the SpeedSource Renesis cars were built with a 5.12. Both Grand-Am and W.C. spec the 5.12 rear gear. This higher ratio allows fewer rpm drop so you can stay in the power better than a lower rear gear (which is better for hwy mpg). The 5.12 is over $1,200 for the street crowd not including install but keeps you in the power waaay better than any other gear available. If you have raced anything with a motor before than you know this. If you don't please understand that its not just about how much power an engine makes. For example, if you could ONLY drive your car in 3rd gear and made 400 hp, you would not have lots of options---right? Gears give you more options which is why close ratio gear boxes provide performance advantages. With the stock 04-08 trans we can hit 151 mph at 9,200 rpm in 6th at Daytona in the draft. About 8 or so mph less when we are cutting wind all by ourself. 9,200 because your flat out from the bus stop and just standing on the gas 100% for what feels like hours.
Hopefully this has shed light into the capability of a stock motor. I probably have $30K invested in high end, very professional engine management and you could get close with some of the offerings from these vendors on this site and even closer with a Motec. We are talking single digit hp differences here. I suspect our tune over some of these available is worth 5 peak hp and advantages come in other areas not related to peak power and too complex to share on this forum.
I would close in saying that you could get to an honest 200 with different engine managment, a smart intake and exhuast and a clean, fresh motor. Possibly 205 if you invest in custom, proper exhaust headers (not RB). 210 in 5th gear if you leaned her out and spent 20 minutes or more heating up the drivetrain on the dyno. As I've said before in other threads, there is more power on the dyno when you heat the car up then most people realize. Anytime you see a dyno sheet and the differences in power for the 3 runs represented is more than 5 hp the dyno customer is not doing it properly. Done properly almost all of your dyno curves will overlay each other. 3 pulls are for street rookies. We will do about 30 or more hard pulls before we start measuring anything. 30. 30. Why? Because there is about a 10 hp difference from the very first pulls you make and the ones that make the most power. So.......understand what and how your measuring to better put into perspective the data your looking at.
Happy rotoring sports fans. See you at the track.
Mazda choose 9,000rpm based on 3 things
- First, they know that power drops after around 8,500 rpm so there is no point revving further.
- Second, 9,000 rpm sounds better than 8,500rpm red line.
- Third, based on the stock gear ratio, if you shift at around 9K rpm, the rpm will drop at around the peak torque of the engine.
Porting, depends on how far you go, when done right, porting will not effect engine life all that much. and a properly ported 13B-MSP will get you around 20 extra hp. but idle will suffer for sure.
as for resurfacing housing, its very obvious that power is NOT their major concern, cost is. what resurfacing does is the machine will remove most if not all of the gas-nitride layer, which is around 0.02 thick. the housing will be "softer" and more prone to wear, but Mazda's engine was ok before this technology exist (was it like 1980 or something, I forgot the exact year) sure it will never last as long as brand new housing. but hey its 1/5 of the cost, for some people, those are really important.
Another thing to note is that this engine's power output depends heavily on the seal's clearance/builder's skills. not saying your tech is not skilled enough. don't get me wrong. but it does matter. like the NRS's ceramic seals, they're newest machine can get to 0.001 difference.
Last edited by nycgps; 12-26-2010 at 12:26 PM.
12-26-2010, 02:48 PM
#12
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Thanks for all your responses, that is some good information for me to think about. Having been through all that it inspires another question. What is the most reliable FI setup, and this question is being asked with little intrest in spending much money beyond that of the initial setup of the FI system in question.
12-26-2010, 03:47 PM
#14
Thanks for all your responses, that is some good information for me to think about. Having been through all that it inspires another question. What is the most reliable FI setup, and this question is being asked with little intrest in spending much money beyond that of the initial setup of the FI system in question.
12-27-2010, 01:34 AM
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After reading EricMeyer's thread.... Im now very anxious to see how well my knight sports header will produce under the dyno...
Your thread has put shine more light on the myths and legends that has been contaminting the dyno truths...
Your thread has put shine more light on the myths and legends that has been contaminting the dyno truths...
12-28-2010, 07:21 AM
#18
I'm curious if EricMeyer likes any commercially available header. It's my understanding that his team uses a very expensive collector in building their own long tube header, which I am guessing would be unable to interface with standard midpipes or the OEM exhaust.
12-28-2010, 02:39 PM
#19
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We run a dual muffler system made by CoastFab in Southern Cal. These are rebuildable/repackable because the huge heat these crazy engines make cook street performance mufflers and they end up very loud. So loud that my crew guys use to not be able to hear me on the radio. We now repack our mufflers after two W.C. racers to keep the loud noise down on the radio. So we are getting about 4 races per muffler.
I do not know any longer merge collector mufflers out there other than one sold on the west coast by a well known company that mates to the stocker exhaust. The transistion for this (where 3 pipes go to 1) is much too abrupt. Air (like water) doesn't like to make a lot of turns and go around corners which is one reason the Renesis exhaust ports are sucky----they have way too many bends --- especially the center iron.
Since we're on the subject, we are now timing out our headers after each season. I have a fabricator making 3 sets (because setup time is long and 3 are much cheaper than 1). I already have 3 collectors from other exhausts and experimentation with various lengths, gradual bends vs. tighter bends, smaller diameters, etc. I think the collectors themselves were $700 each our cost in 321 S.S. You'll need lots of bends to weld together (X 3 primary runners). I think we are in the $1,400 cost each.
The original Grand-Am ST SpeedSource RX-8's used a similar but different header (which we have tested and exceeded their power curve) made by Howerton here in Indy. I think they are crazy expensive. North of $2K I beleive. They work iconel exhaust for the 3 rotor Rolex cars. Iconel is very expensive to work with. Superior properties but North of 10K for most muffler / exhaust (minus header). I recall a Porsche 996/997 Inconel exhaust being in the 15K range. Keep in mind that their engine is in the back and the entire system isn't long but it is compact.
Rumor has it that the SpeedSource Inconel Muffler is leased by Ianetti for something crazy like $20K / year. I've heard this from a few folks but have never been able to confirm it. I've seen the exhaust and ....... it looks like a muffler.
Old School rotary guys have been using Lava Rock (exactly what you think it is) in muffler packing for years. It is an option with some custom race muffler fabricators.
Enough of my trivia. Time for a nap.
Meyer out
12-28-2010, 05:16 PM
#22
I won't confirm it either, as the contract between Mazda and Iannetti is confidential. The NRD (Noise Reduction Device) from Iannetti is incredible at what it does. The available power over a broad area together with reduced sound levels, outer temperature, reduced dimensions, reduced weight and increased longevity is unparalleled and quite essential in winning championships against bigger money than Mazda will spend.
Eric, you do know about winning and I've always admired your systematic, sharp, scrutinizing approach to racing.
Paul.
12-28-2010, 08:47 PM
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Design based on the LCB manifolds on old A-series engines (siamesed ports like the '8)
Can't match the peak figures that Eric puts out but it does seem to hang onto it's power longer (pretty flat from 8500-9200rpm), can't say it's all down to that but I think Eric's exhaust work pointed to a similar trend.
12-31-2010, 04:32 AM
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100 points for you. You are correct. The end of our longer 3 primary pipes mate to a longer collector (3 into 1). This "collector" is long and gradual and therefore ends farther down along the side of the transmission, well past where a stock midpipe would mate.
We run a dual muffler system made by CoastFab in Southern Cal. These are rebuildable/repackable because the huge heat these crazy engines make cook street performance mufflers and they end up very loud. So loud that my crew guys use to not be able to hear me on the radio. We now repack our mufflers after two W.C. racers to keep the loud noise down on the radio. So we are getting about 4 races per muffler.
I do not know any longer merge collector mufflers out there other than one sold on the west coast by a well known company that mates to the stocker exhaust. The transistion for this (where 3 pipes go to 1) is much too abrupt. Air (like water) doesn't like to make a lot of turns and go around corners which is one reason the Renesis exhaust ports are sucky----they have way too many bends --- especially the center iron.
Since we're on the subject, we are now timing out our headers after each season. I have a fabricator making 3 sets (because setup time is long and 3 are much cheaper than 1). I already have 3 collectors from other exhausts and experimentation with various lengths, gradual bends vs. tighter bends, smaller diameters, etc. I think the collectors themselves were $700 each our cost in 321 S.S. You'll need lots of bends to weld together (X 3 primary runners). I think we are in the $1,400 cost each.
The original Grand-Am ST SpeedSource RX-8's used a similar but different header (which we have tested and exceeded their power curve) made by Howerton here in Indy. I think they are crazy expensive. North of $2K I beleive. They work iconel exhaust for the 3 rotor Rolex cars. Iconel is very expensive to work with. Superior properties but North of 10K for most muffler / exhaust (minus header). I recall a Porsche 996/997 Inconel exhaust being in the 15K range. Keep in mind that their engine is in the back and the entire system isn't long but it is compact.
Rumor has it that the SpeedSource Inconel Muffler is leased by Ianetti for something crazy like $20K / year. I've heard this from a few folks but have never been able to confirm it. I've seen the exhaust and ....... it looks like a muffler.
Old School rotary guys have been using Lava Rock (exactly what you think it is) in muffler packing for years. It is an option with some custom race muffler fabricators.
Enough of my trivia. Time for a nap.
Meyer out
We run a dual muffler system made by CoastFab in Southern Cal. These are rebuildable/repackable because the huge heat these crazy engines make cook street performance mufflers and they end up very loud. So loud that my crew guys use to not be able to hear me on the radio. We now repack our mufflers after two W.C. racers to keep the loud noise down on the radio. So we are getting about 4 races per muffler.
I do not know any longer merge collector mufflers out there other than one sold on the west coast by a well known company that mates to the stocker exhaust. The transistion for this (where 3 pipes go to 1) is much too abrupt. Air (like water) doesn't like to make a lot of turns and go around corners which is one reason the Renesis exhaust ports are sucky----they have way too many bends --- especially the center iron.
Since we're on the subject, we are now timing out our headers after each season. I have a fabricator making 3 sets (because setup time is long and 3 are much cheaper than 1). I already have 3 collectors from other exhausts and experimentation with various lengths, gradual bends vs. tighter bends, smaller diameters, etc. I think the collectors themselves were $700 each our cost in 321 S.S. You'll need lots of bends to weld together (X 3 primary runners). I think we are in the $1,400 cost each.
The original Grand-Am ST SpeedSource RX-8's used a similar but different header (which we have tested and exceeded their power curve) made by Howerton here in Indy. I think they are crazy expensive. North of $2K I beleive. They work iconel exhaust for the 3 rotor Rolex cars. Iconel is very expensive to work with. Superior properties but North of 10K for most muffler / exhaust (minus header). I recall a Porsche 996/997 Inconel exhaust being in the 15K range. Keep in mind that their engine is in the back and the entire system isn't long but it is compact.
Rumor has it that the SpeedSource Inconel Muffler is leased by Ianetti for something crazy like $20K / year. I've heard this from a few folks but have never been able to confirm it. I've seen the exhaust and ....... it looks like a muffler.
Old School rotary guys have been using Lava Rock (exactly what you think it is) in muffler packing for years. It is an option with some custom race muffler fabricators.
Enough of my trivia. Time for a nap.
Meyer out
Cool Meyer... Im not technically sound but i hope u can help me out... So if one were to remove the stock cat/ high flow cat... replace it with a pipe of 2.5" throughout and connect it to a single straight muffler, that would be most ideal right?