Most Economical Way to add Low End Torque?
10-11-2009, 09:16 PM
#28
NO A/C :(
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I hope the OP did not give up just yet; if you are serious enough and have a pretty good salary, then you should be fine.
Forced Induction= Money(Sparingly)
Engine Swap= Money(Sparingly sort of IMO)
Are you serious enough to go through with this process, with the potential of great risk? Question needs a little more detail but other than that, lets get started.
Forced Induction= Money(Sparingly)
Engine Swap= Money(Sparingly sort of IMO)
Are you serious enough to go through with this process, with the potential of great risk? Question needs a little more detail but other than that, lets get started.
10-13-2009, 07:57 AM
#32
10-13-2009, 08:27 AM
#33
oh boy, here we go...
while noturd here is on the right track, take any of those numbers for a grain of salt.
from option one - 1)its possible to see 20hp from tuning but very unlikely unless you've already spent the money getting rid of the cat converter 2)its possible to regain horsepower lost through shitty coils, but extremely unlikely to add any actual measurable power 3)between the clutch and flywheel, IF you choose the right ones(not what you see in that list) you can remove enough mass to see 5-8whp improvement via efficiency 4)pulleys have been questionably assigned 1-2hp gains... So, as you can see the couple of bolt on power adders listed arent really adding up to much. You also have headers, extensive exhaust customization etc etc that you can play with. You have the option of extensive intake customization but guarantee whatever you can gain at a given rpm, you will loose elsewhere and then some. To date the best reputable dyno result from an NA car is about 220WHP. thats roughly 40whp improvement over stock with extremely good tuning. most people are lucky to see 200WHP
from option two - $3500 is not even a place to start. double it and you being more realistic. the truth is your looking at 2800 minimum for the cheapest kit availible. you still need gauges and the associated equipment, boost control, installation, dozens of minor things that do add very quickly, Oh - and unless you plan to be rebuilding the turbo/motor very quickly - you'll be replacing half the parts that come with such a low cost kit(including having the turbo itself upgraded)....
-i know this may seem a bit harsh to some, but dozens of others here can vouch for the expense. you cannot count the times new guys have come here, boosted their motor, not spent the due time and diligence researching nor the due cost doing it properly, then 3 months later blowing a motor and selling all their parts to pay for a rebuild - then selling the car. I personally was inches from being boosted - I had in possesion most of the parts to go ahead with the install, i was looking at a total cost of no less than $7K. I sold everything I had - I decided I was NOT gong to be one of those guys who boosts a motor I cannot afford to loose. I will be back to the turbo route one day, but it's flat out irresponsible financially to boost a motor that you cannot afford to loose.
the plus side - the FI route can easily put you to the 250-350+whp range.
in conclusion your options are:
1) bolt ons - 20(realistic) to 40(max) horsepower gain at a cost of hundreds to thousands
2) forced induction - 70-100+ horsepower gain at a cost of $5K+(minimum!) and hopefully in doing so, being in a financial/logistical position where you can afford to loose the motor and not have it turn your day to day life upside down
while noturd here is on the right track, take any of those numbers for a grain of salt.
from option one - 1)its possible to see 20hp from tuning but very unlikely unless you've already spent the money getting rid of the cat converter 2)its possible to regain horsepower lost through shitty coils, but extremely unlikely to add any actual measurable power 3)between the clutch and flywheel, IF you choose the right ones(not what you see in that list) you can remove enough mass to see 5-8whp improvement via efficiency 4)pulleys have been questionably assigned 1-2hp gains... So, as you can see the couple of bolt on power adders listed arent really adding up to much. You also have headers, extensive exhaust customization etc etc that you can play with. You have the option of extensive intake customization but guarantee whatever you can gain at a given rpm, you will loose elsewhere and then some. To date the best reputable dyno result from an NA car is about 220WHP. thats roughly 40whp improvement over stock with extremely good tuning. most people are lucky to see 200WHP
from option two - $3500 is not even a place to start. double it and you being more realistic. the truth is your looking at 2800 minimum for the cheapest kit availible. you still need gauges and the associated equipment, boost control, installation, dozens of minor things that do add very quickly, Oh - and unless you plan to be rebuilding the turbo/motor very quickly - you'll be replacing half the parts that come with such a low cost kit(including having the turbo itself upgraded)....
-i know this may seem a bit harsh to some, but dozens of others here can vouch for the expense. you cannot count the times new guys have come here, boosted their motor, not spent the due time and diligence researching nor the due cost doing it properly, then 3 months later blowing a motor and selling all their parts to pay for a rebuild - then selling the car. I personally was inches from being boosted - I had in possesion most of the parts to go ahead with the install, i was looking at a total cost of no less than $7K. I sold everything I had - I decided I was NOT gong to be one of those guys who boosts a motor I cannot afford to loose. I will be back to the turbo route one day, but it's flat out irresponsible financially to boost a motor that you cannot afford to loose.
the plus side - the FI route can easily put you to the 250-350+whp range.
in conclusion your options are:
1) bolt ons - 20(realistic) to 40(max) horsepower gain at a cost of hundreds to thousands
2) forced induction - 70-100+ horsepower gain at a cost of $5K+(minimum!) and hopefully in doing so, being in a financial/logistical position where you can afford to loose the motor and not have it turn your day to day life upside down
Hi Paul your right on some of the important features of adding torque to this car... however I'm not a perfectionist nor a certified geek to actually confirm your suggestions are quiet comparible to the realistic costs in todays market buying and upgrading the Rx8.... please note that the suggestions of options I posted are based in diferent locations and may vary of the available experienced TECH's, not everywhere you go costs the same.
Very true that the option of TURBO is not a smart option without the right TECH or the right investment. For those who think adding POWER< TORQUE or even PERFORMANCE to the RX8 is cheap it's why I posted an AVERAGE BASE PRICE of a used set up.... but normally YES you could run into more costs depending where U ARE and WHO is working on the car also.
NO need to throw the frustrating comments of the intelligence to other RX8 owners, just being honest and realistic that paying even $6000 or $7000 for a USED Turbo is simply a rip off... not that I object or against for those who have purchased ... it's the FACT they didn't researched well enough... and eventually since they have a TURBO installed for that amount they love to show off until YES just like you say.. HERES comes the blown engine, gaskets, tranny issues etc... but that is the result of any aggresive modification to an engine... it's the risk we all take, and let's be serious for those who are Turbo owners ( YOUR NOT A NASCAR RACER ) keep it real... lol..
Hell I've seen used Esmeril Complete Turbo Kit's for $2500-$3000 in great conditions and Installation Costs by Well KNOWN TURBO TECHS where I'm located starts from $500-$700 ( MECHTECH certified and experienced ROTARY TURBO TECH's ) IF YOU PAY OVER $5000 for a used TURBO it's your money not mine thank god...
What I'm trying to say is that investing in any car takes time, serious pacience, sometimes it takes even a while for a great SALE opportunity thru other owners... but it's the temptation of being like STONE COLD's icecream themes... LIKE IT, LOVE IT , GOTTA HAVE IT is what makes the diference of saving money and eventually investing wisely...
Last edited by NOTURX8; 10-13-2009 at 10:44 AM.
10-13-2009, 08:34 AM
#34
Chill out dude, you're spreading just false information.
Let's put 3000$ for a TURBO KIT. be it a stock greddy, an upgraded one (bnr, mm etc ) or an esmeril.
You will need:
boost controller - 300 or so $
turbo rebuild - 200\500$
Injectors
Probably a clutch
probably new couplers and hoses xxx$
Coils? anywhere from 200+$ for stock coils + spark plug and spark plug wires to 485$ for a bhr upgrade
AT LEAST an AFR and a Boost gauge of good quality - min. 200$
Install + tune that costs anything from 300$ or so for just a MM tune or we can easily see fees of 500$ or more.
This is just rounding the prices...
That adds up to a total of more than 1500$ so the minimum for a USED kit would be 4500$.
Let's put 3000$ for a TURBO KIT. be it a stock greddy, an upgraded one (bnr, mm etc ) or an esmeril.
You will need:
boost controller - 300 or so $
turbo rebuild - 200\500$
Injectors
Probably a clutch
probably new couplers and hoses xxx$
Coils? anywhere from 200+$ for stock coils + spark plug and spark plug wires to 485$ for a bhr upgrade
AT LEAST an AFR and a Boost gauge of good quality - min. 200$
Install + tune that costs anything from 300$ or so for just a MM tune or we can easily see fees of 500$ or more.
This is just rounding the prices...
That adds up to a total of more than 1500$ so the minimum for a USED kit would be 4500$.
10-13-2009, 08:49 AM
#35
Chill out dude, you're spreading just false information.
Let's put 3000$ for a TURBO KIT. be it a stock greddy, an upgraded one (bnr, mm etc ) or an esmeril.
You will need:
boost controller - 300 or so $
turbo rebuild - 200\500$
Injectors
Probably a clutch
probably new couplers and hoses xxx$
Coils? anywhere from 200+$ for stock coils + spark plug and spark plug wires to 485$ for a bhr upgrade
AT LEAST an AFR and a Boost gauge of good quality - min. 200$
Install + tune that costs anything from 300$ or so for just a MM tune or we can easily see fees of 500$ or more.
This is just rounding the prices...
That adds up to a total of more than 1500$ so the minimum for a USED kit would be 4500$.
Let's put 3000$ for a TURBO KIT. be it a stock greddy, an upgraded one (bnr, mm etc ) or an esmeril.
You will need:
boost controller - 300 or so $
turbo rebuild - 200\500$
Injectors
Probably a clutch
probably new couplers and hoses xxx$
Coils? anywhere from 200+$ for stock coils + spark plug and spark plug wires to 485$ for a bhr upgrade
AT LEAST an AFR and a Boost gauge of good quality - min. 200$
Install + tune that costs anything from 300$ or so for just a MM tune or we can easily see fees of 500$ or more.
This is just rounding the prices...
That adds up to a total of more than 1500$ so the minimum for a USED kit would be 4500$.
Installation & Tuning $500-$700 - this is a reasonable costs for all the back n forth tuning process during installation and the first weeks of Dyno's etc..
And of course additional costs maybe to repair hoses, clamps etc.. no more than $4000 though.... still believe $4500 is not a fair price with installation but rarely common in the states since there aren't that many profesional certified or experienced RX8 Turbo Tech's in some areas...
10-13-2009, 08:56 AM
#36
Maybe in your world... can you host me?
I'm planning and saving to go FI and i'm sure that at the end of the story i will need to spend around 9000$ for a new set-up.
4500 seems like a deal for a complete kit where everything is included and functional... your price range is way too optimistic imho but what do i know...
I'm planning and saving to go FI and i'm sure that at the end of the story i will need to spend around 9000$ for a new set-up.
4500 seems like a deal for a complete kit where everything is included and functional... your price range is way too optimistic imho but what do i know...
10-13-2009, 09:11 AM
#38
Maybe in your world... can you host me?
I'm planning and saving to go FI and i'm sure that at the end of the story i will need to spend around 9000$ for a new set-up.
4500 seems like a deal for a complete kit where everything is included and functional... your price range is way too optimistic imho but what do i know...
I'm planning and saving to go FI and i'm sure that at the end of the story i will need to spend around 9000$ for a new set-up.
4500 seems like a deal for a complete kit where everything is included and functional... your price range is way too optimistic imho but what do i know...
waiting, research and saving is the key to many investors that are very profitable and succesfull for those who doubt it's possible...
if your really going to spend $9000 for a set up, my best wishes and luck you accomplish it.... and when you do, hope we all see some pictures of this massive investment...good luck....
10-13-2009, 09:17 AM
#39
waiting, research and saving is the key to many investors that are very profitable and succesfull for those who doubt it's possible... if your really going to spend $9000 for a set up, my best wishes and luck you accomplish it.... and when you do, hope we all see some pictures of this massive investment...
good luck....
if your really going to spend $9000 for a set up, my best wishes and luck you accomplish it.... and when you do, hope we all see some pictures of this massive investment...good luck....
A complete build takes time, and money so telling somebody to go Fi for 3000$ doesn't sound right from the beginning!
10-13-2009, 09:31 AM
#41
DONT PUT WORDS I NEVER SAID I NEVER SAID to anyone nor did motivate them to SUCH LIE about buying a $3000 installed turbo etc... GROW UP and learn to READ... it's your ignorance not to accept the fact that it can be possible however the main question is HOW LONG IS THAT PERSON ABLE TO WAIT FOR A GOOD DEAL is was makes the diference of making it happen with a budget of $4000....
Your the ******* who wants to spend $9000 on a set up which eventually we all know like many 70% of the RX8 owners bullshit they do this and that and at the end never really do it.. lmao
If you plan to build that 9k set up PLEASE post pictures so I can STFU..
GROW UP and learn to READ...
Last edited by NOTURX8; 10-13-2009 at 10:42 AM.
10-13-2009, 09:46 AM
#44
Asshole for hire
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colfontaine, Belgium
Posts: 3,214
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
wow. well, since you can apparently get a complete used turbo kit with gauges etc for under $3K, and still not need to spend more than a few hundred dollars in upgrades/replacements/rebuilds/etc.... and do this with any degree of reliability - i retract my previous statements, and would recommend you take up business as a facilitator for FI enthusiasts. for there are dozens of folks who would like to be boosted and last longer than a few months for that cost. and dozens more who could have used your advice in the past... 
reality: what you are proposing(full FI job under $4K) is probably doable... if you are planning on something the equivalent of a factory Greddy Kit, low boost/airflow targets, low end gauges, none of the things you should really have or do in concern for longevity. and what happens then, not in all, but in most cases is the motor/turbo dies and the owner sells everything off in an attempt to get the car running again, shortly thereafter selling the car and moving on because they think they should be able to make 300whp out of an RX-8 without having to spend $5,6,7+ thousand dollars to do so in a manner that facilitates not replacing motors or other major components every few months
btw
How does one become a certified RX-8 Turbo Tech? Is there some accredation body out there who I've just missed out on that makes a person a legit certified Turbo RX-8 guru? I hope so! Unfortunately where I am from, we only have ASE and similar type certifications, and more importantly people with reputations(or not, lol)
reality: what you are proposing(full FI job under $4K) is probably doable... if you are planning on something the equivalent of a factory Greddy Kit, low boost/airflow targets, low end gauges, none of the things you should really have or do in concern for longevity. and what happens then, not in all, but in most cases is the motor/turbo dies and the owner sells everything off in an attempt to get the car running again, shortly thereafter selling the car and moving on because they think they should be able to make 300whp out of an RX-8 without having to spend $5,6,7+ thousand dollars to do so in a manner that facilitates not replacing motors or other major components every few months
btw
How does one become a certified RX-8 Turbo Tech? Is there some accredation body out there who I've just missed out on that makes a person a legit certified Turbo RX-8 guru? I hope so! Unfortunately where I am from, we only have ASE and similar type certifications, and more importantly people with reputations(or not, lol)
Last edited by paulmasoner; 10-13-2009 at 09:48 AM.
10-13-2009, 09:47 AM
#45
10-13-2009, 09:50 AM
#46
Registered
DONT PUT WORDS I NEVER SAID, I NEVER SAID to anyone nor did motivate them to SUCH LIE about buying a $3000 installed turbo etc... GROW UP and learn to READ... it's your ignorance not to accept the fact that it can be possible however the main question is HOW LONG IS THAT PERSON ABLE TO WAIT FOR A GOOD DEAL is was makes the diference of making it happen with a budget of $4000....
Your the ******* who wants to spend $9000 on a set up which eventually we all know like many 70% of the RX8 owners bullshit they do this and that and at the end never really do it.. lmao
If you plan to build that 9k set up PLEASE post pictures so I can STFU..
GROW UP and learn to READ...
Your the ******* who wants to spend $9000 on a set up which eventually we all know like many 70% of the RX8 owners bullshit they do this and that and at the end never really do it.. lmao
If you plan to build that 9k set up PLEASE post pictures so I can STFU..
GROW UP and learn to READ...
YOU need to calm down.
10-13-2009, 10:00 AM
#47
Asshole for hire
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colfontaine, Belgium
Posts: 3,214
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Look man, I don't think anyone here is trying to flat out tell you that you can not do something. With the right patience, luck, and skills - sure you can pull off anything you can imagine. I think the point we are trying to make, is more that it's very unlikely that the average owner is going to perform such a feat at these costs and still be driving the same car/motor a year from now. Can you do it, perhaps. Can most people, not a chance. The cautionary responses are just as much for others reading this as they are for you. There have been an absurd number of folks thinking they were going to go FI on the cheap, and nearly all of them no longer have an RX-8 due to a major failure of some kind followed by sale of the car.
Thats why I came in with my personal example. I had done the research, been patient and made some great deals, invested some serious money... but in the end I decided it was not in my best interest to even be taking that chance until I was in a position where I did not rely on this car everyday, and could afford to be replacing major components. It's just not financially sound. And common sense dictates that a majority of those persons who are looking for FI on the cheap, are going to be in the category that cannot afford to loose motors, rebuild turbos, or have downtime for other types of issues that will come up
Thats why I came in with my personal example. I had done the research, been patient and made some great deals, invested some serious money... but in the end I decided it was not in my best interest to even be taking that chance until I was in a position where I did not rely on this car everyday, and could afford to be replacing major components. It's just not financially sound. And common sense dictates that a majority of those persons who are looking for FI on the cheap, are going to be in the category that cannot afford to loose motors, rebuild turbos, or have downtime for other types of issues that will come up
Last edited by paulmasoner; 10-13-2009 at 10:03 AM.
10-13-2009, 10:01 AM
#48
How does one become a certified RX-8 Turbo Tech? Is there some accredation body out there who I've just missed out on that makes a person a legit certified Turbo RX-8 guru? I hope so! Unfortunately where I am from, we only have ASE and similar type certifications, and more importantly people with reputations(or not, lol)[/quote]
I never said a certified RX8 Turbo Tech... check the thread again how it's written I said:
Certified or Experienced RX8 Turbo Tech
I never said certified RX8 Turbo Tech we all know there's no such thing possible, jejee lol you had me going there for a while...
As for the investment of a complete 4k turbo yes your right, any cheap investment eventually will cost's twice...
but again I have not nor recomended anyone to go this way, since I myself won't even bother investing in a turbo for the same reasons many people have posted about possible problems... you can spend 4k, 5k, 6k, 7k, 8k hell even 10k for what ?
at the end regardless the realibitly of the TURBO KIT the owner will end up investing again and again but like I said it's not my money...
HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR TURBO's INSTALLED MORE THAN 3 YEARS WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS SINCE INSTALLATION DAY 1 ? and be realistic and honest of how much was invested,
I'm sure well over $4,000
Im sure there is a thread about this but I thought of posting this question for the author of this thread since he is the one looking to add torque at best economical way...
I never said a certified RX8 Turbo Tech... check the thread again how it's written I said:
Certified or Experienced RX8 Turbo Tech
I never said certified RX8 Turbo Tech we all know there's no such thing possible, jejee lol you had me going there for a while...
As for the investment of a complete 4k turbo yes your right, any cheap investment eventually will cost's twice...
but again I have not nor recomended anyone to go this way, since I myself won't even bother investing in a turbo for the same reasons many people have posted about possible problems... you can spend 4k, 5k, 6k, 7k, 8k hell even 10k for what ?
at the end regardless the realibitly of the TURBO KIT the owner will end up investing again and again but like I said it's not my money...
HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR TURBO's INSTALLED MORE THAN 3 YEARS WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS SINCE INSTALLATION DAY 1 ? and be realistic and honest of how much was invested,
I'm sure well over $4,000
Im sure there is a thread about this but I thought of posting this question for the author of this thread since he is the one looking to add torque at best economical way...
