ghlisa

Hi guys, I need help for looking the best EMS for my RX-8 turbo. I read a lot about different EMS and always get any kind fo issues, EMS like Greddy Emanage, Emanage Ultimate, HKS F CON V, etc... And right now I dont know wich EMS have to go with. Pls give your opinions.

My mods list:
SFR custom turbo kit with Turbonetic T60 Turbo
Spearco Interccoler
550cc RC primary injectors
650cc RC secundary injectors
TurboXS 3" Test pipe with cat-delete
TurboXS 3" Exhaust
Blitz DSBC boost control
HKS Boost, EGT, Fuel press, Oil press gauges
Innovative LM-1 A/F

Everything is installed in my Rx-8 is just remain to pick up the best EMS and make the tuning.

Thanks.

rkostolni

Interceptor is great. It's plug-n-play, gives full stand alone capabilites to control fuel, timing and some of the internal ports. As configured by Scott its map configuration is 2-d. There are maps for boost, and maps for RPM, but they are independent of each other. This gives a little less control of your AFR at certain load points, but is much faster to tune. In general though, I've found this tuning setup to be more than adequate and I haven't seen any problems with holding a steady AFR. The Interceptor can be switched into Matrix mode which gives 3-d tuning capability, but you will need to swap out your p1's for larger injectors (which looks like you've already done), or preferably rewire the injector configuration to really take advantage of the 3-d mapping. Neither is really a big deal IMO. Driveability is great, it really is like stock. I highly recommend it.

I don't have any direct experience with the Fcon. It does have some advantages such as larger maps, giving more resolution. But, then again if you're only running 8-10psi, you don't really need that extra resolution. The Fcon also provides the capability to chase an AFR if you plug in a WB O2. The Fcon is more expensive and it can only be tuned by an HKS authorized tuner. That's an automatic disqualification in my book. I'm not sure if the Fcon is plug-n-play or not.

As indicated in the "Major HP section" MazdaManiac just had some luck with the emanage ultimate. I don't have much info about its capabilities, but it's still basically a piggyback, so I have my doubts that it is as powerful as a full standalone. I'd say its too early to say for sure yet.

The emanage blue/gold isn't going to be suitable at your power levels.

These are the only options currently available that are proven to work. Others may, but you're on uncharted territory.

Personally I think the Intx is the way to go. It is expensive, but you've already spent a ton on components, don't skimp on your EMS.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

wow,

were you pointing your toes when you wrote this... cause it is about perfect... i give it a 10!!!!

i think you covered it all...

beers

Fanman

If you are working with SFR already, they have a pre-tuned TSI unit, if I'm not mistaken. Sounds like the easiest way to go. Not to mention the TSI unit is very robust.

BigOLundh

iTrader: (1)

I think you can go with either the Interceptor or HKS F-Con as long as you have access to a tuner who can work with the F-Con.

Then again, i dont know the details on the f-con... i'm just repeating stuff i read on the internet

strokercharged95gt

Get with Mazsport on an Interceptor X seems to be the only smart way to go.

mysql101

There's recent news about emanage ultimate being able to work on the RX-8. We have two groups who're currently running tests and we'll know more in the next few days if it's a real contender or not.

Meanwhile, the interceptor-x is the current champ for fuel management, but 3x the cost.

So wait a while if you can, but you can't go wrong with the int-x.

rkostolni

The TSI unit is still pricey and is still a piggy back.

Fanman

Yeah, but it is pre-tuned to run with that kit (or similar one that SFR sells) and it sounds like you have a decent relationship with SFR. They probably did most of their work on the turbo kit with the TSI unit. I would probably go back to them because of these factors and see what they recommend. It is pricey (but no more so then the Interceptor X or any other higher end FMU). The PF Con V Pro is a top of the line FMU, but the question is do you have a competent HKS Certified Dealer that can work on this for you. If you do then go for it.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

If you have 550 primaries and 650 secondaries, what is in your primary 2 position?

ghlisa

No, Tim of SFR didnt made any test with my Kit with his TSI unit, because is bigger Turbo and bigger Intercooler than his offer in his kit. Because my kit, I request him to make a Kit to goal 400whp (Hope can do it). Is not for the price, is for reliability of each EMS, the HKS is one of the best, and we have a competent HKS Certified tuner here, not live here, but anytime we request him to come, is not problem, the tuner is Koyama from JUN (Japan), but the point is Koyama saids "to tune with the HKS F CON V a RX-8 is very difficult and maybe can get some issues, because the RX-8 use a electronic trottle body". For that reason Im looking for the best choice for my RX-8.

mike1324a

I am still undecided about turbo kits but i did play around with the idea of the sfr or ptp kit and have scott tune them with the interceptor. Get scott to tune it with the interceptor. I say interceptor because scott has been pretty sucessful and knows what he is doing. I want 400whp also, so this will be interesting to see the results. Also do you have any pictures of your setup?

Fanman

If Koyama said that, the question is has he done it yet ? I will tell you that that is not true from experience, as we have kits here running a GT35R that will be using the V Pro, and I have personally seen/driven a car here with the Greddy kit & the HKS F Con V Pro. No driveability issues at all.

Fanman

I just find it odd that the 2 kits you are mentioning will have the option of (full kit vs. tuner kit) of pre-tuned TSI & HKS PF Con V Pro units that they have extensively tested on cars with these kits, and you are getting something else that will basically have to be started from ground zero with these kits, and will need a ton of tuning time. I'm not saying Mazsport & Scott are bad, actually in my correspondence with Scott he has been top notch, and it has been shown that his product works very well with the Greddy kit (that comes with questionable FMU), but this is kind've like re-inventing the wheel. When you look at the cost of the Interceptor X & the tuning/testing time you will need you are easily looking at more than the cost of just buying the pre-tuned unit, and even tuning it a bit more for greater than stock boost levels.

mike1324a

The reason i was thinking of using the interceptor is because i wanted to take those kits and upgrade them over time for more power (shooting for 400whp). Each time something was changed i would have to get it retuned and i figured it would just be better to go with scott. The f-con has to be tuned by a hks dealer and i dont know anything about the tsi ems. I dont want to have to ship to texas or cali every time anything changes. Since i live in GA and Scott is in florida it seems to be the best option for me not to mention his success.

rkostolni

The drivability tuning shouldn't change much from the Greddy kit. Just the boost maps. The Intx is pretty easy and quick to tune, I really don't think it will be that big of a deal for an experienced tuner.

Fanman

If you are around him, that is cool. Just realize that you are basically starting from scratch. Some people say the Interceptor X is plug & play, but that is because Mazsport got a hold of an NA RX8 & a Greddy turboed RX8, and basically did the work on these cars, so now they are able to ship out an Interceptor X with a pre-loaded map and you make some minor tweaks. But before that I guarantee you he probably did a ton of work on it. That is what he will have to do for these other kits too, if you want it to be perfectly tuned.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

the Greddy Ultimate should be superior to the interceptor and for 1/3 of the price- wait a few weeks and you'll see a big bandwagon to jump on (its a interceptor style and not a piggy back and actually can get feedback from the WBO2 sensor for feedback and autotune)

Fanman

You're making a lot of assumptions here. In the RX8 with the PF Con V Pro that I saw, the Greddy map from the EManage was of little help. The HKS Pro certified dealer in tuning had to run over 70 more dynos pulls to properly tune the car perfectly. At $100/3 pulls (usual charge) usually that is a lot of money. And look at the Pettit & PTP turbo projects. A lot of that downtime, why it is taking so long to bring these kits to market is because of the time it takes to perfect the tuning. This isn't one of those jobs where you can run a few dynos and you would be good to go.

rkostolni

The emanage (piggy back) maps are of course not going to port over well to a stand alone. Both the Intx and Fcon are standalones, so I would expect there to be some similarities in the maps, although it certainly wouldn't be a copy-paste. But, we are not really discussing porting from one standalone to another, but rather adapting the tuning on a standalone to a different turbo kit. I'm saying that under boost, there will be huge differences between the Greddy kit and the SFR kit, but I wouldn't expect the vacuum maps (or drivability settings) to change that much. But, I'm just speculating.

$100 for 3 dyno pulls is usually only when doing pulls to get a hp number. When tuning it is usually by the hour at $200/hour.

rkostolni

This is completely not true. The Interceptor is a standalone, the emanage ultimate is still essentialy a piggyback. Jeff calls it an Interceptor because it actually regenerates the signal from the factory ecu, rather than altering the original signal. But, it still bases its tuning on the factory ecu. Its tuning is relative. The Interceptor X, despite its deceiving name is a full standalone that creates its own signals. Its tuning is absolute.

The emanage ultimate will provide a cheaper alternative that is likely suitable for the power levels that most rx8 owners are running. JUst how good a job it does compared to the Intx is yet to be seen. But, for the brave that want extreme power levels 400+ you should go standalone.

Just look at the 350z forum. Many people have been using the emanage ultimate for some time, but those running more boost and making more power switch to a full standalone. Usually either an f-con or a UTEC.

Fanman

I'm not sure that even then SFR or PTP would be willing to share their tuning maps of say the F Con V Pro or TSI with Mazsport. Also the V pro is 32x32 resolution & the Mazsport is 16x16 so the maps wouldn't port over, not to mention the software may be very different so it definitely wouldn't port over in that respect. But you could write the values in, but again, not sure if PTP or SFR would be willing to share that information.

Even if you look at $200/hr for the dyno time alone. If you pull 50-60-70 dyno pulls that is probably $1,000 right there, not to mention if you have a tech for 4-5 hours you are looking at his labor. Just why would you do that when you could buy a PF Con V Pro or TSI unit pre-programmed specifically for those kits. I would understand if it was a Blue Emanage vs. an Interceptor X, but in this case both the TSI box & HKS unit are top of the line equipment (as I'm sure the Interceptor is too). Again, if you are close to Scott, Mazsport is a fine outfit, but you might as well if you are throwing the kit on your car for the first time going FI on the RX8 just get the FMU from the companies that sold you the turbo kit itself.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Technically, the Int-X isn't a stand-alone either.

A stand-alone replaces the PCM completely. AEM, TEC3, etc.

The Int-X sits in a nether region between pigy-back and standalone.
That is why it is an interceptor.
The main difference in this case is that the Int-X creates the ignition and fuel curve from scratch. The EMU creates part of the fueling from scratch and builds the ignition map on what the PCM is doing.

The main advantage of the EMU is that it can produce any duty cycle you want without having some weirdness in the AFM circuit.
You could go to any size injector in any position and the EMU could compensate for it directly.
Oh, and you can buy 3 of them for the price of the Int-X.

rkostolni

I'm not trying to say the Intx is the end all be all solution by any means. The Fcon is a great unit also. In fact in my opinion it is superior to the intx. However, I don't know if the additional capabilities are worth the extra expense and the hastle of always using an HKS tuner. I also don't know if the Fcon is truely plug-and-play or if it requires some hacking, if so that is an additional cost as well.

Getting a preprogrammed map could save you some money on tuning, but don't be fooled into believing it will be completely dialed in from that preset map. It will still require some dyno tuning to dial it in to your specific vehicle. Just like the Intx requires for Greddy kit owners. With the additional cost of the Fcon, I'd bet you'd still end up with a cheaper solution going with the Intx even though you'd have to spend more on tuning. With the load based mapping the Intx is very quick to tune. I would suspect you could have a course map within a few dyno pulls. Fine tuning it is where the time would be spent, but that would also have to be done for the Fcon as well.

Also, I would agree SFR probably won't release their maps to be copied, and while they would give a good estimate of what to use they would not be directly compatible. I wasn't suggesting to copy their maps though. I was saying you could still use the Intx vacuum maps as they are configured for the Greddy turbo. So only the boost maps would have to be generated.

Fanman

I don't think anybody is saying the I-X is a bad unit at all. It's just that these turbo kits were run & tuned with existing FMU units. Essentially you are starting 20 m up on a 100 m race. If the person in the beginning of the thread is looking for 400 whp+ from their kit you can be assured it will be 15+ psi (given that PTP was running about 10-12 psi on their Car & Driver test and getting in the 330 whp range). For that kind of boost on our cars you may need maximun tunability/control from these FMU's.

I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's as easy as you claim. From personal experience I have seen the processes that go into tuning a unit from the ground up on these cars, and it's not a few dyno pulls, even on the best units. I've seen the Pettit Racing SC car about 2 years ago over at Sevenstock & they are still fine tuning it, I've seen/heard about PTP's time tuning their turbo kit, the HKS Pro dealer working on their solution for the Greddy kit and it takes not hours like you say, not even days, but weeks, if not months to properly tune a ground up FMU. This isn't just fine tuning (which would take a few hours) this is far more intensive. Somebody is going to have to drive a SFR/PTP equipped car into Mazsport and have them work on it (for a long while).