Let's play "What DID Judge Ito do"
08-27-2004, 01:12 AM
#76
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What I am wondering is why did the dyno peak at about 1000 rpm lower than the stock peak? It peaked and then went back down. If you look at the 2nd gen RX-7 dyno, it does the exact same thing. That makes no sense to me. Peak numbers are great for selling products but it is average power that wins races. If we want to see who's car can make the ultimate most peak horsepower, that wouldn't be very hard to do. Getting the most average power would be a trick. I am convinced that he doesn't run full throttle on the dyno until about 6000 rpm but what happens after about 7000 rpm is beyond me.
No I don't have any secret projects working right now. I still need to get the 8" speaker box done that I started in November and the dash pieces done. After that, we'll see.
No I don't have any secret projects working right now. I still need to get the 8" speaker box done that I started in November and the dash pieces done. After that, we'll see.
Last edited by rotarygod; 08-27-2004 at 01:15 AM.
08-27-2004, 05:42 PM
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I'm not familiar with the RX8 intake manifold system to great detail and I dont follow this forum as I have a 3rd gen. I initially came to read about the Ito "drama" that some of the non understanding babies fueled (obviously that doesnt apply to everyone).
Anyway, my understanding is there are butterflies that open around 6200rpms that are actuator driven.....has anyone ever verified that they open all the way? Could it be that they only open say 50% and this could have been Mazda's way of choaking back the power from 280 which coincidentally would make the rwhp right about what Ito is getting. Like I said I dont read this forum so maybe that has been discussed before.
In addition if you guys read Ito's post he said that it wasnt a warrenty issue he was worried about. Mazda threatened to take legal action against him if he disclosed this certain information publicly. Could it be that he was somehow involved in some joint RB/Mazda testing and they didnt want him to leak the info? Could it be that they dont want people messing with the changes they made that allowed them to import the car and they dont want everyone knowing how to reverse it?
*mod edit*
Anyway, my understanding is there are butterflies that open around 6200rpms that are actuator driven.....has anyone ever verified that they open all the way? Could it be that they only open say 50% and this could have been Mazda's way of choaking back the power from 280 which coincidentally would make the rwhp right about what Ito is getting. Like I said I dont read this forum so maybe that has been discussed before.
In addition if you guys read Ito's post he said that it wasnt a warrenty issue he was worried about. Mazda threatened to take legal action against him if he disclosed this certain information publicly. Could it be that he was somehow involved in some joint RB/Mazda testing and they didnt want him to leak the info? Could it be that they dont want people messing with the changes they made that allowed them to import the car and they dont want everyone knowing how to reverse it?
*mod edit*
08-27-2004, 06:02 PM
#83
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SPOautos i appreciate your sentiments in the last part of your post but i said at the begining of this thread and several times since that i would not let this thread devolve into bickerign between people who either wanted to bash Judge or stick up for him. i want to keep this on track ie. how could someone reproduce the power increase that we see on that dyno graph. so thanks for your input with the intake idea. appreciate it. it will really annoy me to have to close or delete this thread.
edit- it was 280 ps never 280bhp which is how we measure it here. 280ps is roughly 247bhp which was the original posted hp at the time of the first deliveries.
edit- it was 280 ps never 280bhp which is how we measure it here. 280ps is roughly 247bhp which was the original posted hp at the time of the first deliveries.
08-27-2004, 06:06 PM
#85
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LOL, Sorry if I come off as being brash but I read thru that long *** thread and it pissed me off and made me not have much respect for some of the members here. I tried to fill my post with as much constructive information as I could as I am interested in the possibilities of the engine.
Stephen
1995 RX7 with a few goodies
Stephen
1995 RX7 with a few goodies
Last edited by SPOautos; 08-27-2004 at 06:09 PM.
. Care to add anything else....?
08-27-2004, 09:33 PM
#88
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Maybe this will shed a little light into what was done. I'll let you guys figure out who said this.
"After what I found out with my Rx8 renesis engine I almost sure I'll be testing a new 6 port bridgeport renesis engine for my Rx3. I'm going to test and tune with my bridgeported partial peripheral port FD engine that is currently in my Rx3, But shortly after that I'm going to use a renesis engine and fabricate a custom intake manifold and look to make 500rwhp with N2o with no problem. The renesis engine is pretty impressive for N/A and N20 application.. You guys want to see pics of the bridgeport renesis plate? "
"After what I found out with my Rx8 renesis engine I almost sure I'll be testing a new 6 port bridgeport renesis engine for my Rx3. I'm going to test and tune with my bridgeported partial peripheral port FD engine that is currently in my Rx3, But shortly after that I'm going to use a renesis engine and fabricate a custom intake manifold and look to make 500rwhp with N2o with no problem. The renesis engine is pretty impressive for N/A and N20 application.. You guys want to see pics of the bridgeport renesis plate? "
08-27-2004, 09:36 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Maybe this will shed a little light into what was done. I'll let you guys figure out who said this.
"After what I found out with my Rx8 renesis engine I almost sure I'll be testing a new 6 port bridgeport renesis engine for my Rx3. I'm going to test and tune with my bridgeported partial peripheral port FD engine that is currently in my Rx3, But shortly after that I'm going to use a renesis engine and fabricate a custom intake manifold and look to make 500rwhp with N2o with no problem. The renesis engine is pretty impressive for N/A and N20 application.. You guys want to see pics of the bridgeport renesis plate? "
"After what I found out with my Rx8 renesis engine I almost sure I'll be testing a new 6 port bridgeport renesis engine for my Rx3. I'm going to test and tune with my bridgeported partial peripheral port FD engine that is currently in my Rx3, But shortly after that I'm going to use a renesis engine and fabricate a custom intake manifold and look to make 500rwhp with N2o with no problem. The renesis engine is pretty impressive for N/A and N20 application.. You guys want to see pics of the bridgeport renesis plate? "
edit: nm.. that was dumb.. of course not.
Last edited by Ajax; 08-27-2004 at 09:38 PM.
08-28-2004, 05:31 AM
#90
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Does anyone know what rpm the third set of fuel injectors come on at? <3750rpm, only the Primary 1 injectors are operating. Above 3750rpm, the secondary injectors come on. All I could find on the tertiary (Primary 2) injectors is that they come on "as fuel demands increase". Is this 6750rpm, or does it change?
The reason I ask is this: Judge Ito is getting a big power increase at 6750rpm. There are no significant changes occuring in the SDIAS at this rpm. At 6250rpm, the auxillary ports open, and the Judge's dyno plot shows the usual momentary dip in power at this rpm. At 7250rpm, the VDI valve opens, but the Judge's power increase has already happened by then. Nothing happens in the SDIAS at 6750rpm though, so it doesn't look like a change in the functioning of the SDIAS is the answer.
We all know the Renesis runs rich, and that leaning out the AFR will increase power. What would happen if the tertiary fuel injectors were unplugged? Less fuel for the same amount of air coming throught the SDIAS would equate to a leaner AFR right? Could this be where the extra power is coming from? Is 6750rpm significant because this equates to where the tertiary fuel injectors normally come on?
That would be a pretty simple mod that would leave the engine still looking stock.
The reason I ask is this: Judge Ito is getting a big power increase at 6750rpm. There are no significant changes occuring in the SDIAS at this rpm. At 6250rpm, the auxillary ports open, and the Judge's dyno plot shows the usual momentary dip in power at this rpm. At 7250rpm, the VDI valve opens, but the Judge's power increase has already happened by then. Nothing happens in the SDIAS at 6750rpm though, so it doesn't look like a change in the functioning of the SDIAS is the answer.
We all know the Renesis runs rich, and that leaning out the AFR will increase power. What would happen if the tertiary fuel injectors were unplugged? Less fuel for the same amount of air coming throught the SDIAS would equate to a leaner AFR right? Could this be where the extra power is coming from? Is 6750rpm significant because this equates to where the tertiary fuel injectors normally come on?
That would be a pretty simple mod that would leave the engine still looking stock.
08-28-2004, 08:52 AM
#91
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If there was some joint R&D thing going on that Mazda didn't want disclosed, that would make sense...but the other idea...Mazda sells a LOT of cars to people who are going to want to mod them. Its the whole tuner mentality that is so prevalent in the import market right now. They've GOT to know that...its no skin off their back if somebody mods a car they sell so why would they take legal action?
jds
In addition if you guys read Ito's post he said that it wasnt a warrenty issue he was worried about. Mazda threatened to take legal action against him if he disclosed this certain information publicly. Could it be that he was somehow involved in some joint RB/Mazda testing and they didnt want him to leak the info? Could it be that they dont want people messing with the changes they made that allowed them to import the car and they dont want everyone knowing how to reverse it?
*mod edit*
jds
Originally Posted by SPOautos
In addition if you guys read Ito's post he said that it wasnt a warrenty issue he was worried about. Mazda threatened to take legal action against him if he disclosed this certain information publicly. Could it be that he was somehow involved in some joint RB/Mazda testing and they didnt want him to leak the info? Could it be that they dont want people messing with the changes they made that allowed them to import the car and they dont want everyone knowing how to reverse it?
*mod edit*
08-28-2004, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
SPOautos i appreciate your sentiments in the last part of your post but i said at the begining of this thread and several times since that i would not let this thread devolve into bickerign between people who either wanted to bash Judge or stick up for him. i want to keep this on track ie. how could someone reproduce the power increase that we see on that dyno graph. so thanks for your input with the intake idea. appreciate it. it will really annoy me to have to close or delete this thread.
edit- it was 280 ps never 280bhp which is how we measure it here. 280ps is roughly 247bhp which was the original posted hp at the time of the first deliveries.
edit- it was 280 ps never 280bhp which is how we measure it here. 280ps is roughly 247bhp which was the original posted hp at the time of the first deliveries.
08-28-2004, 10:30 AM
#93
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You've got a small mistake Zoom44. JDM is 250ps, and 250ps is equal to 247bhp. I think he was refering to the RX- Evolv and it's 10k rpm 280ps engine.
Last edited by Japan8; 08-28-2004 at 10:36 AM.
08-28-2004, 11:31 AM
#94
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Originally Posted by WTF no turbo
Dude are you a control freak?
thanks for the correction japan8.
so rotarygod- the dyno graph is showing us he didnt lay on full wot before the jump right? it appears to be the case. + we have a bridgeport but probably not the nitrous at this time since the statements concerns a much bigger hp increase with teh bport and nos together.
08-28-2004, 02:27 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by zoom44
in this thread yes. i dont want any bickering about whether Judge was right or not or flaming him or the people that flamed him. this thread i want to keep as clear of bickering as i can so that whatever good information we have isnt lost. if you have nothing to add to the discussion-how can we reproduce the dyno results- feel free to not post in this thread. i cant make it any clearer.
thanks for the correction japan8.
so rotarygod- the dyno graph is showing us he didnt lay on full wot before the jump right? it appears to be the case. + we have a bridgeport but probably not the nitrous at this time since the statements concerns a much bigger hp increase with teh bport and nos together.
thanks for the correction japan8.
so rotarygod- the dyno graph is showing us he didnt lay on full wot before the jump right? it appears to be the case. + we have a bridgeport but probably not the nitrous at this time since the statements concerns a much bigger hp increase with teh bport and nos together.
what I honestly think he did is he ONLY ported the tertiary intakes. That's why you see a HUGE top end increase, rather than an overall top end increase. I dont think this is the result of porting the entire motor. I think this was just his test bed to see what the renesis would do if you ported it and it was a damn good idea.
Since if you port the low end ports, it's very noticeable when you drive the car because the car has a rougher idle, idles at 2k and goes "wah wah wah wah wah wah wah" at idle because of the extra exhaust gasses. This way, if he took it into mazda, they wouldnt even notice it at the lower RPMS and at high RPM they might just think it was performing better. They'd have to take the engine out or dyno the car to really figure it out.
IMHO(and i'm an idiot so this could be a horrible idea), it might be smart to do a combination port for the RX8. Small street port on the primary intakes, larger street port on the secondary's and full bridge + street on the tertiary's. That way, you increase your entire RPM range but you dont have to worry about rough idle or the "wah wahs".
08-28-2004, 03:09 PM
#96
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Originally Posted by wakeech
wah?? it's *BRAP*
anyway, i still do not think he took the motor apart.
anyway, i still do not think he took the motor apart.
08-28-2004, 03:32 PM
#97
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Originally Posted by wakeech
so that tells me what?? he's building a 13BMSP for a race car. this one is still in his street car, isn't it??
the other forum guys are always a little weird, i dunno why he has to go bsing around with this 'bone stock' stuff. if it's ported, then great. he just proved what we were all hoping might happen a few years ago.
the other forum guys are always a little weird, i dunno why he has to go bsing around with this 'bone stock' stuff. if it's ported, then great. he just proved what we were all hoping might happen a few years ago.
08-28-2004, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ajax
Zoom,
what I honestly think he did is he ONLY ported the tertiary intakes. That's why you see a HUGE top end increase, rather than an overall top end increase. I dont think this is the result of porting the entire motor. I think this was just his test bed to see what the renesis would do if you ported it and it was a damn good idea.
Since if you port the low end ports, it's very noticeable when you drive the car because the car has a rougher idle, idles at 2k and goes "wah wah wah wah wah wah wah" at idle because of the extra exhaust gasses. This way, if he took it into mazda, they wouldnt even notice it at the lower RPMS and at high RPM they might just think it was performing better. They'd have to take the engine out or dyno the car to really figure it out.
IMHO(and i'm an idiot so this could be a horrible idea), it might be smart to do a combination port for the RX8. Small street port on the primary intakes, larger street port on the secondary's and full bridge + street on the tertiary's. That way, you increase your entire RPM range but you dont have to worry about rough idle or the "wah wahs".
what I honestly think he did is he ONLY ported the tertiary intakes. That's why you see a HUGE top end increase, rather than an overall top end increase. I dont think this is the result of porting the entire motor. I think this was just his test bed to see what the renesis would do if you ported it and it was a damn good idea.
Since if you port the low end ports, it's very noticeable when you drive the car because the car has a rougher idle, idles at 2k and goes "wah wah wah wah wah wah wah" at idle because of the extra exhaust gasses. This way, if he took it into mazda, they wouldnt even notice it at the lower RPMS and at high RPM they might just think it was performing better. They'd have to take the engine out or dyno the car to really figure it out.
IMHO(and i'm an idiot so this could be a horrible idea), it might be smart to do a combination port for the RX8. Small street port on the primary intakes, larger street port on the secondary's and full bridge + street on the tertiary's. That way, you increase your entire RPM range but you dont have to worry about rough idle or the "wah wahs".
I do believe Acosta did a small port and made 220ish.tertiary's are they key to keeping car streetable, and Ito's dyno shows thats all he messed with.Has anyone else called him?
08-28-2004, 10:42 PM
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Wait, um, why are we playing the guessing game again? We're going in circles. Who cares what Judge Ito did? The whole point is he somehow attained 239.7 rhwp. Let's be happy with that, and try to figure out how to match, or beat that number, N/A, FI, gerbil-powered, whatever. 