StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Let's go back to simple physics.....

Anything 'generated' by electricity in your car is powered by the alternator, right?

Since we all agree with the law of conservation of energy, that states that "energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another."

Then it follows that any gains will come from the alternator, which uses the engine's power, and slows the car down........

Since no system is even close to perfect, you must put more energy into the process than comes out - so you will slow the engine WAY more than any gain you'll see from combustion.

There is no free lunch, unless you believe the oil companies also know how to bypass the First Law of Thermodynamics, but are keeping it secret......


S

911RN

Now that explanation seems understandable, factual, and agreeable. This question might seem nieve but when researching this kit i found numerous testamonials of how people have seen an increase in MPG's and have even noticed horse-power gains, although dyno tests are not avavailable. Am i just being gullible or is it possible to see this although there is more strain put on the alternator?. Also, is there a safe amount of amperage that can be drawn form the alternator with out causing so much strain that it would affect the performance of the engine. Further, If one were to upgrade their alternator to an aftermarket one with less drag and higher output would this make this idea/kit more feasable?

Outkast187

The drain on the alternator is minimal. Most people are using less juice than a couple subs. I havent seen many people get over 12-14amps....not sure if this can really amount to much though. The correct way to do it is use a rectifier with adjustable voltage/amperage. When you do this, you can control it without making a bomb. The ideal set up would be computer controlled, monitoring temp, pressure, voltage, and amperage and adjust accordingly.

What needs to be done is, take a car that runs fine (non fuel injected is easiest). Buy the propane conversion for it, its proven reliable. Buy a tank of pure hydrogen, which is available everywhere. Tune till you have perfect set up, record pressure and flow. Then you can bench test to create the same flow and pressure.

Downside is, heat. Piston engines run very hot on hydrogen from what I have seen locally. Not sure if its just a lean mixture creating it, or the fact that gasoline cools the combustion chamber so effectively. My theory is 100% ethanol/ hydrogen mix will be ideal. Cheap, and the ethanol is much cooler than gasoline. (On quads we run alcohol and the carbs will form ice on them in 110 degree weather.....15hp gains on a 60hp engine, so you know its cold). So, ethanol may be the cooling factor needed. Plus, on a rotary, I would want some form of premix for good measure.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Alternators don't work like that.

The more current they generate, more load they put on the engine. The ECU will keep the idle steady, but the load is there.


S

Outkast187

Yes, thats for sure. The load on the kit shouldnt be constant, it should vary. It will put a load on engine, and in tern use more fuel. Complete conversion is the only way I think it will work.

Method 2, buy separate battery (with money you could use for fuel) and solar charge it. This would relieve stress from alternator.

dont expect miracles.

RotaryFiend

I'm so glad Outkast187 is here to lead us into the future of alternative fuels

Hydrogen isn't a very good solution, this is probably the best hydrogen kit I've seen switch2hydrogen.com , but it still isn't very effective.

The only hydrogen power that has anything promising about it is what Blacklight Power is doing.

Socket7

There are much more mundane reasons for inreased MPG with a kit like this. It mostly has to do with people changing their driving habits to avoid the abject shame of wasting their money on a scam.

An RX-8 can do 8 MPG if you're driving it hard enough. If you go easy on the throttle though, you can get 20 mpg. Thats a 50+% improvement in gas milage Just by changing your driving habits. No hydrogen generator needed.

I suspect that after spending 250 to 1000 dollars on a kit that doesn't do anything, they begin to slow down. Coasting up to stop lights instead of drag racing to them, driving 65 instead of 75 on the freeway, Cutting out short trips that won't let the engine warm up, shifting earlier, etc, etc, etc. All 100% effective methods of saving gas.

Now there was one interesting thing about that website that caught my eye, and that was the page that talked about government tax incentives. I'm willing to bet that any smart person who's installing this kit is getting cash from the government for doing so, but I haven't the desire to figure out how to make the scam work.

Spin9k

8mpg --> 20mpg = 150% improvement

Socket7

Pardon. I failed math in high school. It's the reason my eyes glaze over whenever RotaryGod starts explaining things like volumetric efficiency.

Outkast187

I agree 1000% socket, I am sure the driving habits change drastically to improve mileage. Its not hard at all to change how you drive and gain 1-3mpg. Its even easier with an instant mileage calculator, I loved mine in the vette.....you could find the sweet spot and actually save some fuel.

OpTiCaL

Yeah i would have to go along with what Outkast was saying. A totally seperate system would work better. utilizing a PWM for the H2 Cell and a rechargeable Li-Ion or Li-Polymer Battery as Li-titanate are not really available. Another way to do it would be to have the H2 Cell run off of solar pannels on the roof of your house and into a storage tank that feeds into a fuel cell in the car (much like the small scale Simplicity 2 and like honda is doing with the FCX Clarity). Yet another way would be to run it off of your house electricty, but that all goes back to the efficiency if the H2 Cell. From what I have red and seen most are very inefficient.

Maybe solar to charge the battery that runs a PWM that runs a H2 Cell that stores in a tank to be fed to a fuel cell in the car or even a presuredized tank in the car (but this would need to have a compressor to pressurise either tank). when it comes down to it i would have to say BEV will win in the end.

ah thats my 2cents. the electrolysis cells dont really have names so i sub'ed in H2 Cell for simplicity and for a lack of a better word at the time

Moon Assad

Ok, been looking into this stuff for a while, this is what ive found to be amazing.

Ok, for the first video watch it all, it gets better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9NvboKL43Q

After seeing that I found this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk...eature=related

After seeing that I looked into Stanly Meyers patents and found this one

http://www.primeideas.info/patents/PART57.pdf

With some more reaserch I started trying to figure out how to atleast try building a bench test unit. This is where ive gotten to in the build.

Spin9k

I'll take one of these. H from H2O that goes!

http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/

Moon Assad

Ive seen that before, im not sure if its using a generator. I think its a hybrid but its a nice car.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

there may be more to this that i 1st thought. intriguing --i will watch this with a very interested eye.
can you are believing some are tuning to a 30/1!!!
a lot i know about engines may be changing.
olddragger

Spin9k

From their site:

"Produces hydrogen during vehicle operation through electrolysis of water using the power generated from the vehicles electrical system. A small amount of hydrogen added to the vehicles intake air/fuel mixture allows the engine to operate with less fossil fuel. Ronn Motor Company will use this technology in its revolutionary Scorpion to achieve lower emissions and vastly improved fuel economy.

There are two main kinds of Hydrogen Hybrid automobile. These are fuel cell vehicles and Hydrogen internal combustion engines, (HICE) like our first automobile "The Scorpion". Fuel cell vehicles are electric cars. Hydrogen is pumped into a tank in the car, just as gasoline. The hydrogen gas is then fed into the fuel cell where it is electrochemically converted into electricity--with no combustion, no moving parts and no emissions other than water vapor. The electricity is used to power the vehicle.

Hydrogen ICE vehicles use a regular combustion engine modified to use gaseous hydrogen instead of liquid gasoline (much like a natural gas vehicle is modified). They burn hydrogen or a combination of gasoline and hydrogen, but since there is no carbon in hydrogen, there are no or almost no CO2 emissions and only trace amounts of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Hydrogen ICE vehicles are typically about 30-50% more efficient than comparable gasoline vehicles. "

911RN

Ill admit right now i almost gave up on this thread. However the last couple of posts have re-ignited my ambitions regarding the use of hydrogen injection via intake.

I really apreciated the quote on the web site regarding the scorpion vehicle:
"The Scorpion will feature our new and exclusive Hydrogen Fuel Injection (HFI) fuel delivery system. The system provides Hydrogen on demand, which is injected directly into the motor. This alternative fuel approach allows us to increase fuel mileage between 20-40 % and reduce CO2 emissions to nearly zero."

Also as spin9k brought out in his post:
"Hydrogen ICE vehicles use a regular combustion engine modified to use gaseous hydrogen instead of liquid gasoline (much like a natural gas vehicle is modified)."

Therefore this is starting to show some real world application. Although many are in disbelief of this idea we have to agree that it is starting to come out of the wood work and may some day soon be common practice among car companies. I don't know about every body else but this is exciting that it's possible to modify a regular combustion engine to perform better.

CaptainCanada

I've always been intrigued by things like this. Sure, the internet is full of "something for nothing" scams, but if you manage to sift through them you occasionally find little gems of wisdom.

There's no doubt in my mind that these hydrogen kits aren't doing anything. As everyone here has said, laws of thermodynamics blabbity blah blah... Having said that everyone is forgetting that it's not an "energy for nothing" situation we're looking for here. Gasoline is chemical energy storage and, as I understand it, reacting it as we all do to get energy is hugely inefficient. Only something like 3 or 4% of the chemically stored energy in the gas is turned into motion. If we can react the fuel with something first in order to achieve more efficient combustion, or even switch to a different fuel that burns more efficiently, we're already ahead of the game.

Is hydrogen the solution? Is the energy lost from generating it offset by releasing more chemical energy from the gasoline? I don't know. I'm not a chemist. I don't feel like generating the hydrogen onboard the vehicle makes a ton of sense though. At the very least you're carrying more weight, and exposing yourself to highly volatile hydrogen gas contained in a "roll your own" variety machine.

Smells like Darwin award material to me.

onefatsurfer

I read somewhere about a guy that increased the gas mileage in his engine by like 50% by using water injection. He basically recaptured a lot of the wasted energy (heat) by injecting water every other stroke instead of fuel.

This water turned into steam, which pressurized the chamber (not as much as the gas, but it doesnt matter) and gave the engine a free power stroke, essentially. He said the engine could run for a long time and still be slightly warm to the touch.

Now, I'm sure power went down somewhat from it not using all that extra fuel, but his gas mileage went up A LOT. Wouldn't you think the car manufacturers would try this? NO.

Who wants to have to fill an extra tank with distilled water every time they fill up their car? Would you honestly buy a car that could get 3 more mpgs, if you only dump some distilled water and table salt in a tank every 100 miles, and have to clean out the tank every 1000 miles? Oh, and what about if the salesman told you your car was generating explosive gas under the hood, and, while it's mostly safe, there's a teeny chance it will explode.

I wouldn't be surprised if this system works. Not on the premise that the gas generated in splitting the h2o is producing more energy than it took to split it. However, interesting things happen when you start mixing things together and lighting them on fire. A tiny bit of h2 in the combustion chamber might cause the combustion to be more complete. Forget about the energy that the explosion of h2 itself makes. How do we know the small amount of H2 added wouldn't make the air a better catalyst for combustion, increasing the efficency of the explosion of the gasoline? Then, gas mileage and power would go up...

^^Just my thoughts on it

Socket7

911, What happened to "your friend" with the kit? You've gotten very quiet about the massive MPG gains he's supposed to be getting.

Wheres your data?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

this may not be "poppycock" folks. Some VERY reputable folks I know are activly pursuing this. Jury is still out there but there had to be pretty good potential present for these people to get involved.
Wouldnt this be one hell of a note.
olddragger

d_of_e

...it is just a load.

I have degrees in Physics and Mechanical Engineering, so I'm not just talking through my hat here. It's already been said by wiser but sadder folks (and earlier in this very thread) that there is No Free Lunch. This is a cute but accurate restating of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states quite simply that Entropy is positive throughout the universe.

That means that things tend to "run downhill" or "degrade". In other words, energy seeks it's lowest state (which is heat). When acted upon (transformed) or "used", energy will always degrade to a lower state, all ending in heat. In the (very) long run, the universe is expected to devolve into a bunch of cold ash floating randomly in a large bath of tepid space (pretty depressing, huh?... Don't worry, that's not due for several billion years yet.)

Yes, you can take advantage of the abillity to transform energy from lower forms (like heat) to higher forms (like electricity) using mechanical devices, chemical reactions, etc (which is how every living thing survives). Unfortunately these transformations are not very efficient (most of them are not even close to 50%), and so the cost of transformation is yet more heat (just at a lower level or temperature than what you started with). The "good" energy thus generated ALWAYS costs you (and the universe in general) more heat energy in the end.

All that is just another way to restate the 2nd Law.

Apply this to our hydrogen generator and you can see that whatever extra energy you divert from the alternator to produce the hydrogen must be itself generated by gasoline going through it's own conversion to mechanical energy (via chemical combustion, pressure expansion and so on), which drives the belt that drives the alternator that produces the hydrogen. Each step of that process creates its own extra heat due to the inefficiency of the conversions. Thus those of you who have actually read this far can easily see that we must use gasoline to create our extra hydrogen. Those with a tad more insight and a tad less wishful thinking should also see that the conversion process is very inefficient, which means actual MPG MUST DECREASE using this device, assuming everything else (driving habits, braking styles, etc) remains the same.

Sorry about that,

d_of_e

onefatsurfer

...unless the hydrogen acts as a catlyst causing the gasoline to combust more efficiently, resulting in a more complete burn, less soot coming out the tailpipe, and more pressure (read power) exerted on the chamber surfaces.

If you can honestly say that adding an external chemical (aside from an inert gas, which hydrogen most definitely is not) into the combustion process will do precisely zero to the rate of combustion, efficiency of combustion, completeness of combustion, then maybe you need to go back to school and re-take chem and thermo. I'm not saying that it will definitely do something measurable in MPG's, but it will definitely have some effect, however miniscule, on the combustion process.

And yes, I'm an engineer.

911RN

As i mentioned in previous posts, Im waiting on definitive data from his trial. I not going to take information from the first few weeks of use of the kit and completely rely on it as a final say in how the experiment turned out. I will have info posted when it has proven to be trust worthy, whether or not it is positive or negitive. Although im an optimist i will acknowledge the facts as long as they are provided as facts and not opinion. Also i never claimed he was getting masiive MPG increases, i claimed that the kit mentioned online claimes to have major gains.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

is it the electricity doing the converting or is the electricity just a catylyst?
olddragger