Japan8

Image, image, image. I'd spend less and take a RB, or Borla exhaust over any Japanese one without even thinking about it. Both are decent sized companies with a lot of experience in what they do.

The Japanese... they're all mostly tiny shops. I'm suspicious of the quality of their work overal... too many "fly-by-night" companies and people trying to rip you off in Tokyo. And why the hell is everything they make so expensive??? AutoExe has their parts sold and installed by Mazda dealers (which are factory owned in Japan). So AutoExe moves a decent amount of product, but look at how much it costs... ouch! And why only FRP bodykits from them???

That being said... I wonder about that high flow cat w/ resonator that one group is selling in comparison to the Random Technologies cat from Canzoomer...

ANyway... buy whatever makes you feel good, but you truly are only wasting money in buying a Japanese part when a half price part is available from a reputable US company. I mean... the AutoExe intake Vs RotaryExtreme short arm intake... COME ON... the cost difference there... I could buy RE and K&N and pick up a Borla cat back for that price.

What's the obsession with RE Amemiya that some people have??? Looks fairly "Yankii" to me and I don't see their stuff being sold at Mazda dealers...

RX8Z

wow Japan, for a guy that doesnt even own an RX8 , you sure know everything dont ya..=)

Anywyas, the RE Amemiya is a good exhaust from tests runs. I dont know what Japan 8 is talking about, or if he's referring to the local mod shops , and what that has to do with the RE Amemiya in the first place

Truth is, Japanese parts are expensive because of the export of it. Doestn mean they are the best, but doenst mean they are shitty either

As for japan, and you questioning why parts arent selling at dealers, wells i dont know.. guess the same reason why Mugen doesnt sell at Honda, or Nismo doenst sell at Nissan, or TRD just recently started selling with Toyota.. how bout because of COST?

Yes , it cost money to hold inventory, to expand markets, and to even sell .. but you knew that

I dont know, for my Supra, I had alot of TRD parts but i guess I was just wasting my money cuz god knows, some reputable US company made the same thing.. right.

Japan8

And your degree is in? You know how many kanji? Do you even know what kanji are? You've lived and worked in Japan for how long? Oh ok then...

I really try not to "Lord over people" about Japan knowledge, because there is always someone who knows more, but... as we all know Z works for a major NJ car dealership and thus listens to Z's comments about dealers. Many at least know that I live and work in Japan... so give some credit where credit is due please. I do know I generalize a bit, but even given that... I'm rarely far off the mark. And I do have fairly decent credentials backing all the crap I spout about Japan.

Ownership of the 8 is not a requirement for knowledge of Japan and Japanese business. The subject debated in the statements made were not necessarily RX-8 dependent... meaning that it applies for other vehicles, particular Mazdas as I brought up AutoExe. This was a discussion about Japanese aftermarket parts industry, not the RX-8. Is this concept clear to you now or need I write a syllogism for you?

No one said TRD, Nismo, or Ford Motorsports (meaning all manufacturer made aftermarket parts) were crap or even just plain old questionable. You choose to interpret it that way. I posed the question of what is so hot about RE Amemiya because I wished to know the answer to that question. It seems odd that if they are so hot that they can't or don't (meaning they are unable or they do not wish to) get carried at the dealerships. You can buy a Saleen Mustang or a Roush Mustang at a Ford dealership with full factory warranty. Apparantly Mazda K.K. or at least Kanto Mazda approves of the use of AutoExe (and Mazdaspeed, of course) products and not voiding your warranty. This subject came up because there are a few people that praise any and everything that comes out of RE Amemiya. Seems odd to me. There are some who will only buy JDM parts. Seemed odd to me as well. As I said before... people are welcome to spend their money how they choose... I would just like to know why...

You say the truth is that JDM parts are expensive because they have to be imported to the US. Are you joking or do you really not have any idea? Do you think the prices on Japanparts.com or RotaryExtreme or any of the others INCLUDE shipping to the US??!! Tell you what.... go to RE Amemiya's and AutoExe's webpage and read for yourself what the prices are. You can't read Japanese? Well I'll tell you what it says then... it says that these people are hardly ripping you off. AutoExe "Stainless Muffler 98,000 JPY" and the "Ram-air Intake System 118,000 JPY." Like I said... this is without mark up and without shipping from Japan... just the JDM list price. The Japanparts.com price is 105,900 JPY for the Stainless Muffler...a measly 7,900 JPY markup. However... I can buy a Borla cat-back and a RE short arm intake for the price of just the AutoExe intake...with change left over.

As to TRD, Nismo, etc. selling at the dealers.. excuse me we are talking JDM not USDM. Very little stock of any anything anywhere in any market in Japan is kept (clothes, food, parts, cars, etc.). In Tokyo... no space. In the country overal it's just too costly for the land. However... yes you can get TRD, Nismo and STi from the dealer in Japan. Thank you very much. I was talking about other aftermarket companies as I mentioned above... AutoExe sells as Mazda in the Kanto area at least. If RE Amemiya makes such good parts and are so hot on the racing circut... why aren't their parts carried? Not rhetorical... honestly I am curious as to why. Why coud AutoExe pull off a deal to get their stuff carried instead???

This is mainly a question of costs, not a "good" US company Vs a "bad" Japanese company. Get out of 1989... The prices for JDM parts is outrageous. I basically said why pay it if you can get parts at half or less from a reputable USDM company. I also raised the question of RE Amemiya's position and the reason for some people following them like lemmings. And you wer saying... :p

J

RX8Z

Japan8

Please let me apologize for I am not trying to prove that you are wrong, but merely trying to show that what you are stating is plain opinion and economics. You show nothing with figures or data to support your assumptions so really what you your statements are is as of opinion.

I cant tell you why ethically, morally or technically why Japanese poeple buy certain cars, but Im assuming its a matter of logic and personal preference. Kind of like why our Walkmans are like bricks but in Japan, theyre smaller than your cell phones.

You raise questions that is quite obvious and if you really dont know why cost is higher for Japanese parts, I can give you some hints, how bout cost of labor? or cost of material? how bout the fact that factories overhead are too high? cost of inventory, storage, marketing and so forth

Why is China one of the worlds largest labor intensive markets, because the labor is cheap and the quality is the same. Why are most cars built in Mexico or Mid states, and not imported from Japan? Taxes, shipping costs, insurance, damages etc.

If you honestly dont know why, and your "raising" questions t hen that tells me you know nothing about the business market or aspect of it. Yes you reside in Japan, and yes if I want to know whats the best place for Udon, I'll come to you but please dont try to insult me and tell me that I know nothing of the market

For your information, I am in charge of corporate sales, internet sales for my company. We own 19 dealerships with Acura, BMW, Mini Cooper, Isuzu, Mazda.. Im not an expert , but I have experience to back up what Im telling you.

The other question you asked on why a certain product is "carried" by the dealers, or within the chain etc. I can almost guarantee because they didnt come to an agreement. Theres so much factors that I dont even want to list, but lets just say its all about the money and whos making it. Thats why we have a thing called contracts.

Please Japan8, dontrespond becasue Im not here to argue with you or to prove you right or wrong, This is my opinion, take it as is. I dont know what you do for a living, but you sound like you know it all, so perhaps you do. Take care..

Japan8

Do you know anything about logic, philosophy and research methodology? Well... I can say that Japanese people tend to buy white cars. Why? Empirical data... I can look around outside and see how many white cars there are everyday. No survey, charts, or figures are needed. I have studied and been around the Japan block on many different levels enough times that I can make statements about the system without having to having to write a dissertation each time to prove what I am saying. IF you have a question or find some logical flaw, please do logically make your case and I'll be more than happy to detail the reasons and reasoning for the statement.

And the pot calls the kettle black. MY opinion... you sound as you claim I do... as if you know it all when it comes to the business side of the automotive world. Considering your background I accept that you do stand as somewhat an "authority" about the US domestic market. Need I list my credentials like an *** to be given any consideration or respect as an "authority" about Japan period.... business practices, culture, history, and politics?

I never asked why a muffler costs more in Japan. That should be obvious to anyone. I merely stated that it IS 2x expensive as an American made one. Don't try using a red herring please. What I asked was why is RE Amemiya so popular? IS EVERYTHING they make THAT good? And I asked, if it is THAT good, why isn't it sold at dealers? Is it really worth paying twice as much for it? If so, why? If RE Amemiya is that good, that popular and win that many races, then it stands to REASON that they have a fair chance at establishing a contract... an agreement with Kanto Mazda as well. You are aware that Japanese dealerships are factory-owned, right? Your knowledge and experience in the USDM have little value in the JDM. The system is different and consumer expectations are different. Don't insult you about the market... trust me... you have no idea how things work here. If you can even explain the differences in client/consumer expectations of service between the US and Japan then we can start to talk about you having a leg to stand on in the JDM. If you can succintly explain to me why the American why of doing things does not work in Japan, and why the Japanese way of doing things does not work for foreign-capitalized firms in Japan, then we can say that maybe we are speaking as near equals about the JDM. Don't YOU insult my education, experience or intelligence.

Excuse me, do you know the definition of contract? From Merriam-Webester Online... contract: a binding agreement between two or more persons or parties. And what I said is agreement correct? All contracts are agreements, but not all agreements are contracts. You know what I meant, don't be flippant. AutoExe and Kanto Mazda making an agreement for the sale and installation of the parts is OBVIOUSLY a contract. So no... they obviously DID come to an agreement.

Why American market consumer electronics is 2-3 generations behind isn't that hard to figure out. Cutting edge stuff has bugs and may break down more easily. Taking the extra time allows for production line improvements before release into a market the sie of the US. Another factor is the Japanese penchant for the latest, greatest and most expensive thing... status symbols (this is a generalization... yes, but a well-known and documented one). Lastly... due to this penchant product cycles are pretty short. It'd be rather costly and risky to try to sell ievery product cycle worldwide and then have to have to support it afterwards (parts inventory, etc.).

If you believe that products built in China are only cheaper with the same quality, you need to not join these discussions. If memory serves me, Honda is the closest... they make parts and build cars in China, but the quality is still ****. Toyota and Chrysler ship all the necessary parts to China and assemble them there... because Chinese factories quality control is still crap. China will be a serious economic power as will India in about 20 years time, only if China doesn't implode due to worse banking problems than Japan, divide between rich and poor/urban and rural, government corruption...

Stick a fork in you, because I believe we're done here...

EDIT: Looking back over my posts... I did ask rhetorically why the parts are so expensive. I certainly should know better than you what labor costs in Japan, and rent, and materials and power, office space, etc. I still don't see why the muffler costs twice as much. It doesn't in the motorcycle market... US, Japan and UK prices are simliar there. Market collusion? In Japan? Sure could be. Middleman costs? Not since these are direct sales. Economies of scale? While it seems there are more riders in Japan than the US as a percentage of the population, you do see a decent number of vans, cars, and trucks with at least some aftermarket rims and a muffler on them. So it probably isn't this either. IF labor, etc. was such a big factor, then autos sold here would cost more than they do in the US... which is simply not true. Just following the market... doing what everyone else does? Believable in Japan...

Landon_Starr

Wow. Quite the pissing contest.

May I suggest the lounge?

Seems that aftermarket/engine performance really took a back seat to the battle of pride, there. Both of you are knowledgable in your own aspects, respect each other's knowledge and move on your way.

**The wise will always learn more from the dumb, than the dumb from the wise**

--Landon

RX8Z

No argument, as I stated.. Japan8 , you obviously know everything

But one thing amazes me, youre obviously an intelligent person and all, why do you own a Mazda being Toyota and Nissan are the top cars in Japan.

I guess you strongly dont follow your own advice on what cars, Japanese are buying.

I respect your opinion, I wont even counter it. No insults intended since the beginning, you obviously are taking this personal. good luck in your career and in getting your Rx8.

Oh one more thing, Toyota parts are made in china, and in fact alot of auto manufacters parts are made in china. Its unfortunate that you believe otherwise, If only I could show you confidential reports and invoices..

Of course, you already knew Nissan was made in MExico plants.. oh wait, you do

Z

Japan8

JDM cars are primarly built in Japan. I have no doubt some are not... but I couldn't tell you which because in the end I really don't care about such a detail. Actually... I don't care where any car is made. I simply like what I like... car purchasing is not logical my dear, it's a thing of passion (as I remember reading somewhere). And just because I say that Toyota is the leading car in Japan doesn't mean I want one (although I did consider two different carolla wagons instead of my Mazda). This is pretty much the same as just because the average American worships Honda doesn't mean I'll ever own another. I like to be different and I have a certain list of things I look for in a car for myself.

I didn't start out trying to insult anyone, however, you decided that you wanted to play that game...

For your all knowing so much, ALL Toyota parts aren't made in China. And reread my post.. I said I THOUGHT it was Honda doing both parts and assembly... but it could have been Toyota. Either way no cars for export are assembled in China yet. SOME parts... yes. And the rest need for the China and SE Asian market are shipped in and assembled.

Yeah yeah yeah... Nissan uses Mexico and both GM and Ford use Canada.... so what?

RX8Z

Japan8, you seriously dont know what youre talking about. Best to just be quiet because you are only digging yourself a deeper hole

Yes, I did reread your post . I dont even think you know what you're talking about

"China will be a serious economic power in 20 years??"

Where the f*ck have you been dude. I swear its funny just hearing someone say that, when China is the worlds largest factory and labor intensive market there is. Ask anyone, look at anything, I can almost guarantee you majority percentage of goods, materials, product ends come from China. And if you really believe that China isnt an economic power yet?, try reading the newspaper and you'll know why the United States is so leniant on China and their policies. Please, state facts and not your uneducated opinions.

No cars for export are made in China? That depends, which export you talking about ? To the States? To Europe? Australia? How much you want to bet that there are cars built in china, that are exported to other countries? China dont make parts for cars? My friend, if only you knew ... and its not about the So what? Its the fact that you think just because you have acknowledge the Japanese market, suddenly you are the spokesperson for the whole company meanwhile the Japanese market is weak if at most, and no car manufacturer even uses the Jap market as a profitable region.

I find it more funny that you live in Japan, so close to the Asian Market but you dont know anything of this. I find it even more funny, that you claim to be an expert in car quality , calling Hondas POS, when you dont even realize what HONDA corporation is all about. We do alot more than just cars, and apparently our POS cars must be fooling alot of people, unless you calling Americans and Europeans dumb for buying such POS cars.

Japan, you are truly entitled to your own opinions so I let this be, and I wont take your argument any further, because at first I thought I was having a discussion with someone that actually knew that they were talking about, but now I just realized you are merely a kid on the forum, trying to persuade facts with your opinionated ideas. You sure do have quite an imagination.

Japan8

And where is your evidence? You are such an expert on the automotive industry as a whole and international business... you have access to "secret" documents... as the fleet and internet salesperson in a 19 dealships group. You may well have stated truths, but int he context of this discussion they hold not a drop of water. Why do mine? Because anyone who lives in Japan can acquire the information the same way... go look outside... take a drive.

I don't know what I'm talking about? I haven't seen anything other than your opinions posted. All you've done is continually dismiss my arguments without showing evidence to the contrary. If you wish to dismiss my arguments then the weight of evidence is on you... either through showing a problem with the logic or giving evidence to back your claims.

I never claimed to be a China or Korea expert. I do know something about China and Korea, but nowhere near enough to be an expert. I am an authority on Japan. I didn't choose Japan because it's the cool thing or because it's "profitable" as the new rising "economic power." I chose it for my own personal reasons.

You said not a thing about what I clearly stated... what about China's banking problems? What about the problems with the Yuan's value tied to the dollar instead of floating free? What about the level of graft and coruption in the government? What of the vast difference between the "rich" that live in the Urban coastal areas compared to the poor that live in the rural interior of China? What about the continued converstion of government-run factories? What about rights and protections for foreign companies when they open factories in China? What about the limitations placed upon them and ownership by the Chinese government? I didn't hear you say one word about any of these serious issues? Ignoring these significant issues only weakens your argument.

Certainly China has pretty much become the center of labor intensive production. And? Do you know what this means? Do you think no one knew this was coming a long time ago? Come now... what do you think Japan was in the past? There was a day when "everything" was made in Taiwan and then Korea as well... now they both make semi-conductors. Do you seriously think China is going to be a manufacturing center forever? Do you think that manufacturing is the height of wealth for China? This is just another stage in their economic development. There is no guarantee that they'll successfully pass along to the next stage. Japan is still having growing pains. In the meanwhile if China royally screws up the issues above... BOOM... all you need to do is scare investors/companies or even worse burn them once and they'll pull back so quick China won't know what happened. However... as long as it looks relatively safe they'll invest... and China wants all the investment they can get to continue modernizing the country. All of this is based upon futures... future access... money to make in a market the size of China's. The US doesn't have free access to China's market now though... that's why they're lenient on them... that's why the US wanted them in the WTO. Finding the right tool to wedge open the market... China is already an economic powerhouse? An "Asian Tiger" yes. Economic power no. To say otherwise is to fall into the same logical fallacy as saying that because China a million man army they are a superpower. China has a lot of work to do before it can claim that title.

And no, cars aren't made for export to the MAJOR markets in China. Did I need to state something so obvious as "MAJOR?" Cars assembled in China are sold in China and SE Asia. So yes some are exported... but I hardly count that as anything because as you've said... America is the big time auto market.

No automaker bothers with Japan... I suppose the best thing to say about that is...it's too late. Not because there isn't any money to make... hardly that. You keep spouting your cable news info on the Japanese market and those of us who live here will keep on going with what we REALLY know to be the situation. The fact is that for foreign automakers to make serious sales here, they have to invest a load of money... since dealers are not "franchises", they'll have to pay to build every one of them. They need to have a large stock of parts or suppliers in Japan or nearby that can build them as needed. They'll need differently designed cars to appeal to the Japanese market. This is just to name a few things. If it was 1950 or 1960, sure the US could jump in and make the investment and make a killing. Today... costs are higher and the risk is higher.

As far as Honda goes. I made my feelings and biases clear in another post. However as far as the American pubilc goes... ever hear of the placebo effect... Reputation and marketing go a long way, especially when the American competition are bumbling along with half-assed products.

What is Honda about? Honda is about their roots... which is what gave them the great basis for F-1 and the S2k engine... motorcycles. Although Yamaha and Kawasaki have got Honda in the hp war for the liter class bikes this year... Honda's GP race bike is still the best and the CBR1000RR will certainly prove to be easier to ride to the limit than the R1 or ZX-10R. As this is a car and RX-8 forum... I'll leave this at that.

Ultimately... you state your opinions as fact and regurgitate cable tv news as an "authority." You repeatedly commit logcal falacies... argumentum ad populum, and especially ad hominem, to name just a couple. Your arguements are flawed and weak and lacking in at least empirical evidence to support them. Insult me as you may, but doesn't change the facts of the matter.

RX8Z

Japan8,

You asked for it, please let me know when you want to apologize for I rather not embarass you any further more .

This information is provided by the United States Department of State (www.state.gov) clearly stating China's role and influence in the world. Here are some excerpts for your pleasure

Consider just a few pieces of evidence:


The U.S. and China are the world’s largest and fourth largest trading nations respectively.
China and the U.S. are the world’s largest and second largest foreign investment destinations respectively. That’s right, China passed the U.S. in this important category in 2002.
China holds the world’s second largest stock of foreign exchange reserves, and is a major factor in the international financial system.
After the U.S., China is the world’s second largest primary energy consumer. It is also the third largest energy producer.
And finally, China and the U.S. are two of only three nations that have launched men into space! Let me join President Bush and the long list of U.S. Government officials who have congratulated China for your successful space launch last month.

Read more my friend, It is truly unfortunate that in Japan either you are falsely mislead, or perhaps Japan doesnt want to acknowledge the fact that another foreign asian country has more dominating power than yours. http://www.state.gov/e/rls/rm/2003/27026.htm

So you still think China has no "economic power" ? No problem, here is a full analysis from CIA www.cia.gov, heres another excerpt from their Economy report

"China stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US (measured on a purchasing power parity basis)."

You can certainly read on here at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ch.html

Still dont think Japan is a weak market. There is so much reports stating this, I couldnt even find one , instead I found tons of it so to better assist you, try doing a search on google. Better yet, click here , I'll make it easier for you.. http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...an+weak+market

Reports from BBC, Biz Reports, GFC Global Investment, one of the highest and most prestigous market analyzers stated this in Jan, 2003 "In Japan, weak financial institutions, fiscal imbalances, and persistent deflation continue to cast a shadow over the
longer-term outlook. Japans consistency in weak market and yen will severely damage business and trade within the world."

So you still think Japan is a huge market? For who? What corporation would even think of trying to profit in a region of deflation and depreciation. Of course, Im sorry you live there so again you must be the expert in business management.

You stated in your your recent post "Either way no cars for export are assembled in China yet. " and now you correct that and say, And no, cars aren't made for export to the MAJOR markets in China. Did I need to state something so obvious as "MAJOR?" So yes some are exported . No my friend, you dont need to state anything obvious , but try sticking to one statement please. First you say NO, now you say some are.. which is it. Cant argue with you on this, because you're arguing with yourself =)

You want to know what Honda is about, let me show you some figures.. Hope you're good with math

Below is the name of the manufacter and 2 numbers after it.
Toyota 5.2 Units M Sold 7,861 Millions (profit before tax
Honda 2.3 Units M Sold 3,833 Millions (profit before tax

If you calculate the percentage of units sold vs profit, you will see that Toyota makes 1,511.73 Millions per unit, compared to Honda whick makes 1,666.52 Million. Hmm now Im not a financial analyst but that shows alot. How can Honda sell less units than Toyota and still show a higher profit margin?

Oh and these numbers are corporation numbers including all worldwide divisions of the automotive industry. Of course, Toyota is the one of the largest automakers, but my friend, they are not the best . As I told you before, you can sell millions but quantity doesnt equate quality. God knows, Ford sells more cars , but I have yet to see anyone tell me a Ford is better than a Mercedes.

Please let me know if you need any more information , I take no pleasure in proving you are wrong, really I would like to show how uneducated you really are. As you know, everything I stated above is not of opinion, it is true facts , figures from reputable sources but once again, I am sure the CIA, BBC, nor the State Government have your expertise and personal credentials

A Man is weak not because they dont know, but because they dont want to learn. Yes my friend, I dont think I am smart or more intelligent than you, god knows you already won that battle, but please let me make a note, I have alot more creditbility in what I am telling you because of my position in this corporation and because of my experience in the field.. and im sorry, what do you do again?

Please let me know, if you need anything. .I will be more than happy to show you otherwise.

Japan8

RX8Z,

Acutally... I have been thinking and discussing with some people about the problems with western analysis of Japan. They are looking at Japan as a western liberal democracy with a market capitalist economy. The problem is that this just isn't Japan. I don't want to write a whole dissertation here, but the jist of it is... the liberal democracy part in the west is built upon social conciousness level of Judeo-Christian beliefs that have given birth
to philosophers and liberal democracy... people like Emmanuel Kant, John Stuart Mill, Michael Walzer, Isiah Berlin, John Rawls, and the famous John Locke and Thomas Hobbes. In a nutshell... since Japan isn't Christian.. doesn't have the moral beliefs that came from it... it does not truly function as a western democracy. Hell... a big part of WLD (western liberal democracy) is the rights of the individual and the individual as a moral actor. Just take a moment to think what happens if ones morality... control of one's behavior isn't entirely based upon an internal compass of right and wrong... but society. Therein lies the problem.

Economically... Japan has never truly been a market capitalist economy. The Yen went from pegged to the dollar like the Yuan to it's fluxuation on the captial markets being influenced by Japanese government. Do you know how many accounting books companies keep in Japan? It's general practice to "cook the books" here... and that effect on analysis by western firms do you think this will have? If people think car stealerships are good at playing the shell game with money... the Japanese government in particular, but businesses as well could give them quite a lesson! Guess how many foreign capitalized companies pay corporate taxes in Japan... I don't have an exact figure, but I
know many of the presidents, CEOs and friends of theirs... the answer is very few. It's all part of the "game" here... What I'm saying is... western analysis methods don't work here... they far from tell the whole story. For such a crummy economy there are quite a number of people traveling abroad on vacation... pretty much all flights out of Japan to the US full in December. There are many young women who quit work and go study abroad for year to "refresh themselves." People seem to be buying cars and other goods. There has been quite a wave of new condos and housing neighborhoods being built in the Kanto area. There has also been quite a bit of urban renewal going on throughout Tokyo... such as Roppongi Hills. For an economy that's utterly in the toilet... there seems to be a lot of economic activity.

Here's an interesting related article from the BBC 10/31/01 "Japan's fading economy"
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1629737.stm)

"Without a drastic measure of this kind, the Japanese leadership are likely to persist in believing - often at the behest of western governments - that the answer to all their problems is to become more "Anglo-Saxon", more deregulated, and more brutal in their choice of capitalism.

Maybe that is a good idea - but I have to confess to extreme scepticism that an economy paralysed by the headlights of an approaching catastrophe is best served by a set of measures designed to increase redundancies, and make everybody feel yet more insecure.

Thatcherite reform in Japan may be necessary, but now is surely not the time. "


Speaking of the Yuan being tied to the dollar... check this... "Japan's lone intervention effort reveals poor risk management" by Teruhiko Mano in the Januuary 26, 2004 Japan Times.

"Just a few weeks after the new year began, the U.S. dollar dropped to the 105 JPY range for the first time in three years and four months, and also hit a new low of $1.28 against the Euro...

<SNIP>

...The major reasons behind the gap in the dollar's performance against major industrialized economies and the developing economies are that China and some other Asian countries are keeping their currencies effectively pegged to the dollar, and that the currencies of Latin American nations like Brail and Argentina are on the decline.

This is why there is strong sentiment in the U.S. for China- now the biggest source of the American trade deficit- to either let the yuan strengthen or tolerate a wider margin of fluctuation in the yuan-dollar rate.

China, for its part, appears to be contemplating pegging the yuan to a basket of currencies instead of to the dollar alone. but it will be some time before such a step is actually taken.

We must not forget that, among industrialized nations who allow free movement of capital, exchange rates are influenced more by capital movement than trade factors...

<SNIP>

...Under such conditions, Japan alone continues to intervene to support the dollar, but the government has come under criticism that its foreign currency reserves, which have nearly hit $800 billion, have generated an estimated exhange rate loss of about 8 trillion yen. History shows that a solitary effort by one country to defy the tide of the market will only produce a temporary effect..."

So... 105 JPY to the U.S. dollar is weak?! If you believe so you just proved how little you know about international economics, trade and foreign currencies.

How about this... you are aware of the effect of pegging the yuan to the dollar? It is dragging down the dollar's value. China's own economic strength is difficult to truly see in the numbers as long as they do this as well. If the yuan was allowed free movement, China just might take a hit in captial valuation.

Here's another...$800 billion in foreign currency reserves is an insignificant and weak economy. Right.

I'm far from an economist, so I readily admit I can't jump in too deep... but I think even the average person would question Japan insignificance and China's true strength looking at the above.

The speech (not article or report) that you quote from... "China's Role in the World Economic System" (http://www.state.gov/e/rls/rm/2003/27026.htm) was written for an Under Secretary to be given in Beijing. This is NOT a reliable source for information... at least you can't take anything at face value. You get more reliable numbers from someplace like the Bureau of Labor and Statistics or going to the library and digging for what documents have been released from Senate hearings, meetings, and the original reports. What you really need is to go to a University library and try looking up the original documents, reports, and figures... not a public PR processed rehash of it. A speech being given to the Chinese is obviously going to full of various propaganda...a "feel good" speech if you will... the government does have an agenda you know. You really need to learn to analyze your texts and data before posting. Look...

You posted this from the CIA's economy report on their site... "China stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US (measured on a purchasing power parity basis)."

Do you even understand the problem with that statement? It's cooked... propaganda... brainwashing. Let me tell you why. Do you know what purchasing power parity is? If you do, then you wouldn't have posted that. PPP is simply taking a "basket" of goods and puchasing them in each country. This basically is giving you a compared cost of living in the various countries. Now while that does have some relation to the wealth of a nation... it isn't necessarily so. The contents of said "basket" is something important to note as well... one way to fix statistics... change the sample or use a "bad" sample (e.g. a 2600 sqft house is $X in the US and it costs $Y in Japan... but that size house isn't normal in Japan). Another is this... think of a man who is not filthy rich, but does well for himself in Nigeria. His PPP may look wonderful... prices are cheap in Nigeria and his wealth can go far. Now he wants to immigrate to the US... uh oh... he now finds that his "wealth" won't take him far. Using PPP in a statement like the one above... potentially any nation could appear to be affluent, while not being so. Most importantly what is wrong with using PPP is that what we are discussing is the overal wealth of a nation... not the cost of living and individual income. It doesn't matter how much one dollar can buy in China when what we are talking about is how many dollars does China have TOTAL to buy stuff from the US... how much is the country worth... income, captial...everything. That's how accountants figure your personal wealth and that's how economists usually do it for countries too...usually GDP or GNP figures are used... unless you're trying to cook the data like the CIA.

Japan's economy is weak? Here's an excerpt from a Bloomberg article found in the 1/26/04 Japan Times.

By William Pesek Jr.

As Japanese economy recovers, will bond yields surge?

It may be winter in Tokyo, but its springtime for the economy. Even Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has warmed to the idea that "the Japanese economy has recovered."

The Nikkei 225 Stock Average is up more than 3 percent this year, after rising 24 percent in 2003. Corporate earnings are up, captial expenditures are rising and polls show households are feeling less gloomy. And, increasingly, analysts buzz about the end of Japan nearly six-year bout with deflation.

Now for the truly odd part: Thursday's sale of 500 billion JPY ($4.7 billion) of 20-year Japanese government bonds drew the highest demand in more than six years. Ten-year yeilds also have barely budged in recent weeks. Aren't faster growth and the spectore of rising consumer prices supposed to hurt bonds?

Japan continues to eschew the law of supply and demand for two reasons. One, the world's biggest debt market is blessed with steady demand from pension funds, life insurance companies and public entities that have few investment alternatives. The Bank of Japan also remains an aggressive bond buyer as a means of adding cash to the economy...

Japan doesn't sound so weak to me. It's not out of the woods yet, but it's not in the toilet anymore either.

Here's something right out of one of your quotes... "...Japans consistency in weak market and yen will severely damage business and trade within the world." Doesn't sound like as you say... "So you still think Japan is a huge market? For who? What corporation would even think of trying to profit in a region of deflation and depreciation. Of course, Im sorry you live there so again you must be the expert in business management. " Or did you just read and not analyze the text? If a weak Japan can severly hurt the market then it is NOT a small market, and it is NOT unimportant. That statement in the quote sounds a lot more like they are concerned about the health of the Japanese economy BECAUSE it is big and important.

"http://www.google.com/search?source...pan+weak+market" this search you used is invalid.

You imply that most if not all economic articles about Japan are negative, but your search specifically looked only for those... not just the Japanese economy in general. I'd say this gives a more balanced view...
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Jap...t&cop=mss&tab=

Don't be flippant. I initially generalized to say they didn't export cars as SE Asia hardly counts as a serious and largely profitable market. No one changed statements. You asked and I gave clarification to say that as SE Asia hardly counts as a major export market, what I said was a prefectly fair generalization... unless your only goal is to ineffectively nitpick my posts to try and prove what I say wrong.

For someone who is supposed to know more than I do about business, the problem with your analysis is glaring. The difference in profit margin isn't necessarily based upon quality of product. You're insuating this has something to do with their products, but it doesn't. If this was an analysis of cost of production per unit... that's a different story. Considering the difference in size between the two companies, I'd take a wild guess as the gap comes from business overhead. Maybe it means Toyota needs to trim middle-management... but maybe they care more about happy employees and happy customers unlike cold greedy corporate America (how Japanese often refer to American companies). Hey I don't know what the real cause is... I'm only taking a guess at it.

Um...and your point is? Please get off your soap box... no one insinuated or said that Toyota or Ford is a better car. I leave the value judgements up to the individuals who buy them. I have my biases and everyone else has theirs. As far as business goes...at the end of the day... as long as you are making numbers, what does quality have to do with profits?

Do you think any one of the companies would waste as much time and money on QA if they could still make the same sales as they do now? Granted...the Japanese are **** enough to be the QA masters by nature... so that may not change much for them...OTOH we do have the Mitsubishi debacle as well... so who knows. The point is flat out selling more cars and making more money at the end of the day is what will keep a company in business. You can build a better car than the competition and still go out of business because you simple were unable to sell enough of them. Your sales figures are what ultimately matters in business...


Excuse me was that yet another ad hominem attack? I'd say it was. Unlike someone... I haven't posted all my credentials on the forum... I've got nothing to prove. It might say I work in IT...now. But you really don't know what came before that... so you should watch

where you step...


You want more data.... ok. Here we go...

From the "Annual Report to Congress on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China" by the Department of Defense at http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2...na06222000.htm
given in FY2000.

"China’s primary national goal is to become a strong, modernized, unified, and wealthy nation. It views its national standing in relation to the position of other "great powers."

Beijing clearly wants to be recognized as a full-fledged great power. China considers itself a developing power whose natural resources, manpower, nuclear-capable forces, seat on the UN Security Council, and growing economy give it most of the attributes of a great power. It wants to achieve "parity" in political, economic, and military strength with other great powers. If present trends continue, Beijing believes it will achieve the status of a "medium-sized" great power by 2050 at a minimum. China also wants to become the preeminent Asian power by generating enough "strength" so that no major action will be taken by any other international actor in Asia without first considering Chinese interests."

Sounds like according to the Chinese themselves they aren't an economic power yet! As a matter of fact I said it'll be like another 20 years, but the Chinese themselves are saying even longer than that at minimum! So I don't know what I'm talking about? Right. Like I said...enough with the "cable news" type information. You want to refute this? You want to tell me that the DoD has no idea what they are talking about, especially in a report to Congress?


Here's another good one... do you know how to calculate a country's total power? Well the Chinese have a method outlined in the "Annual Report to Congress on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China" by the Department of Defense at http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2...na06222000.htm

"Chinese analysts calculate the standing of nations by measuring "comprehensive national strength." of these nations. A small circle of strategic advisers for deceased paramount leader Deng Xiaoping developed the method driving this calculus in the 1970s and 1980s. This method relies on a dynamic process of measuring quantitatively and qualitatively key components or "subsystems" of a country’s multi-layered comprehensive national power system. Utilizing this method, Chinese analysts measure four subsystems of national power: (1) material or hard power (natural resources, economics, scientific and technology, and national defense); (2) spirit or soft power (politics, foreign affairs, culture, and education); (3) coordinated power (leadership organization, command, management, and coordination of national
development); and, (4) environmental power (international, natural, and domestic). "

By this system (which is similar to that used by political scientists and other national leaders) Japan isn't out of the game yet as you keep alluding to.

If we continue on in the Annual Report to Congress on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China we can see that those questions I posed as problems that China needs to overcome are indeed serious issues...

"The PRC government has not enunciated a "grand strategy" to guide its activities and approach to international affairs, in the Western sense of the term. Indeed, Chinese leaders are largely preoccupied with domestic concerns, especially the need to maintain conditions of national unity and internal stability. We can infer from official statements by senior leaders, government planning documents, and government-affiliated writings that the nearest Chinese equivalent to a "grand strategy" would be its national development strategy, which aims to comprehensively develop national power so that Beijing can achieve its long-term national goals. Deng Xiaoping first enunciated this development strategy in the late 1970s as the "Four Modernizations." The post-Deng leadership, led by Chinese Communist Party (CCP) General Secretary Jiang Zemin, has reaffirmed this strategy. "



<TO BE CONTINUED>

Japan8

<CONTINUED...>

Here's a recap of my questions about China...

And you still have yet to address these issues in any of your replies.


Here's a nice quote right from the same CIA page you used

(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ch.html)... just a few lines down...

"The leadership, however, often has experienced - as a result of its hybrid system - the worst results of socialism (bureaucracy and lassitude) and of capitalism (windfall gains and growing income disparities). China thus has periodically backtracked, retightening central controls at intervals. The government has struggled to (a) collect revenues due from provinces, businesses, and individuals; (b) reduce corruption and other economic crimes; and (c) keep afloat the large state-owned enterprises, many of which had been shielded from competition by subsidies and had been losing the ability to pay full wages and pensions."


As far as Japanese power goes... here is an analysis as the Chinese see it...(from the Annual Report to Congress on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China)

"Senior leaders are concerned primarily that the United States wants to maintain a dominant position in the Eurasian balance of power by containing the growth of Chinese power and preventing a resurgence of Russian power. Beijing assesses that Washington is trying to sustain a "unipolar" balance of power by strengthening its security alliance with Tokyo and by expanding NATO’s reach beyond Western Europe. China thinks that Russia’s internal troubles preclude it from playing a sustained role in offsetting US dominance in Eurasia. Moreover, Beijing suspects that new US-Japan Defense Guidelines Review measures authorize Japanese military action beyond Japan’s previous defense posture and prompt Tokyo to improve its regional force projection capabilities. Beijing also calculates that US efforts to develop national and theater missile defenses will challenge the credibility of China’s nuclear deterrence..."

Sounds as if your economic powerhouse China is being built by the US and because of the nature of Chinese laws the trade imbalance surpassed that with Japan...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/915519/posts


From the statement of Roger W. Robinson, Jr. Chairman, U.S.-China Economic & Security Review

Commission Before the House Committee on Ways and Means Hearing on “United States-China Economic Relations and China’s Role in the Global Economy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1011784/posts

"China Exchange Rate Policies

Based on our examination of this issue, it appears clear that China continues to follow a policy of one-way market interventions by the government to maintain its currency at a level that economists estimate is between 15-40 percent undervalued. In this regard, China is purchasing U.S. dollars at an estimated rate of $120 billion per year to prevent appreciation of its currency against the dollar. In assessing causes of the worsening U.S. trade deficit and loss of U.S. manufacturing jobs, a broad range of factors are clearly at work; the lack of net new savings in the U.S. economy, the global mobility of factors of production and low labor costs in China are among the principal factors. However, we believe that the artificially undervalued Chinese yuan is negatively impacting the competitiveness of U.S. manufactured goods and is contributing to a migration of world manufacturing capacity to China and to an erosion of the U.S. manufacturing base. "

Sounds like China is in its position of manufacturing strength artifically...using this monetary policy to gain a trade advantage.... aginst WTO rules.


JULY 2002 - REPORT TO CONGRESS OF THE U.S. - CHINA SECURITY REVIEW COMMISSION - THE NATIONAL SECURITY IMPLICATIONS OF THE ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA (http://www.uscc.gov/ch5_02.htm)

Growth in Merchandise Exports of Asian Countries, 1990-2000 (Billions of U.S. Dollars)

1990 1995 % Growth 1990-1995 2000 % Growth 1990-2000
China 62.1 148.8 140% 249.3 301%

Hong Kong 82.4 173.9 111% 202.4 146%

Japan 287.6 443.1 54% 479.2 67%


JAPAN AND THE ENGAGEMENT OF CHINA:CHALLENGES FOR U.S. POLICY COORDINATION
by Michael H. Armacost and Kenneth B. Pyle
(http://www.nbr.org/publications/****...no5/essay.html)

"Broadly speaking, U.S. and Japanese interests regarding China encompass a considerable identity of purpose. Both seek a peacefully inclined China as it undergoes the wrenching
social and economic changes that industrialization inevitably entails. Both seek to encourage a smooth integration of China into the international political and economic systems, even as it builds its national power and becomes more assertive of its interests. Both seek the establishment of the rule of law in China, which will facilitate trade and investment, and both desire a broader relationship with the PRC without abandoning ties with Taiwan. The United States and Japan agree on the desirability of patience, flexibility, and restraint in the solution of the Taiwan issue. In addition, both seek China's assistance in achieving the peaceful coexistence and eventual unification of the two Koreas. The United States and Japan both seek China's cooperation in maintaining peaceful maritime transit in the Western Pacific, and they both pursue engagement that is conditional on the responsiveness of China to these policies. "

"Still, Japan's market is five times the size of China's, and it possesses a vastly more sophisticated military capability. While its ambitions for a larger place in the sun are temporarily in abeyance, Japan remains a force with which to be reckoned. It remains the world's second largest economy, the largest global lender, and the leading donor of foreign aid; it accounts for nearly 10 percent of global GDP and more than 60 percent of East Asia's GDP.2 The unsettled nature of the regional order is increasing the value of the Japanese-American alliance to both the United States and Japan. "


China by Thomas J. Cristensen
(http://strategicasia.nbr.org/Report/....aspx?ID=9&f=0)
"Recent Economic Growth Belies China's Vulnerabilities"


The Indo-Pacific Region 4: Copyright R. James Ferguson 2000, 2001 (http://www.international-relations.com/wbip/wblec4.htm)

"Constitutionally, Japan's forces are limited to a purely defensive role, and until recently spending on these forces has been kept low. In 1987, the 1% of GNP budget was lifted, and after 1990 was expected to move towards the region of 1.5% (Hunt 1989, pp201-202). Since then, in comparable terms, defence budgeting has pushed Japan's defence spending into second rank in world terms, with some slight rise over the 1.5% level."

Actually, as you may not know the current Japanese consitution was written by a team of people assembled from within SCAP in order to produce the new consitution. None of them were consitutional experts. Early versions had been submitted by the State Department written by the "old Japan hands" and had involved little change from the Meiji Consitution. MacArthur didn't like it and thus rejected their proposal. The SCAP consitution was effectively accepted by the Japanese government under pressure. It was expected by SCAP that following the independence of the Japanese government i.e. the end of the occupation (1951/1952), they would quickly revise the constition... Today there has been much talk about the need to revise Article 9 (the one that forbids the maintenance of a military) and with the deployment of the Self-Defense Force to Iraq... this day may be coming sooner than expected.


I can continue on and on with sources and plenty of information that not only shows that Japan is still very much a world power, but also shows how either you are unable to fully read, comprehend and analyze the texts you've posted, but also show the China's "might" is not what you profess it to be.

I have nothing to apologize for. You on the other hand...

wakeech

ok, enough with the pissing contest.

no one other than the two of you care, at all. take it into private with PM's if you both insist on carrying on like this.

RX8Z

Wakeech, youre absolutely right. But please dont tell me that we cant have a dicussion on a forum, because isnt that what a forum is about?

Anyways, Japan8.. believe what you want. Everything you presented above is your personal analysis and view, which is fine. Its your opinion and thats that

Everything Ive stated is not of my research or opionion, or analysis or wuteva, Just showing you the facts.

It really sounds to me that you really have an issue with "CHINA" and the fact that it does indeed have more power than Japan. You have yet to acknowledge this true fact shown by numbers, not by opinion.

Please let us know what you do prior to IT, rather than defending yourself making us guess. Im not putting you down, for Ive been in IT. In fact, I am MCSE certified, Unix certified, CCSE, Linux Certified(Redhat), I was a Technical Analyst/Consultant working primarily with E-Document Solutions for Adobe Software.

Anyways, lets just drop this. I really honestly, dont care... but it was fun, you have to admit that =)

take care

Japan8

Well yes... it has been fun. I do have to admit loving a good debate... to the point of sometimes beating a dead horse. But yeah... no one else really cares about this and... what difference does it really make in the world who is proved right?

You can believe what you want... that's what Western Liberal Democracies are about. You posted incomplete, unrelated, and misinterpreted information. I gave what was my analysis of it, and supporting information for my POV. Your choice to believe it or not. But I'll drop this on you... a long time very close friend IS a China and Taiwan expert that speaks Chinese. He has lived in various places in China and Taiwan. He presently works for a congressmen.

My background? Education is in Political Science and East Asian Studies at a top university (and yes this makes a difference as a summer school class at a much lesser university has shown me)...graduated *** laude and a member of the National Political Science Honor Society. I had some interesting independent study and seminar classes... during one I wrote a paper on the status of Japan as a world power. I've worked as a research assistant in the History department for the Asia expert professor. I've worked an interesting variety of IT jobs... mostly sys admin and enterprise support roles in Japan. I've also worked for the Japanese government.

I have no issues with China. I have actually studied China some, and had planned on learning Chinese as well, but didn't have the time to do so. One of my professors that I was quite close to in the Politics Department is Taiwanese (born and educated) and I have taken classes on China with him. Given all the above... it's fair to say I don't have a chip on my shoulder or issues or whatever where China is concerned. I'm just telling it as it is. Your choice to believe me or not.

Anyway... as you said. Let's just let this go. As I said... what does it really matter who is right and who is wrong?

Cheers!

Landon_Starr

Thanks, Wakeech. Can we have a moderator move these posts? They really don't pertain to Engine performance.

--Landon

Gord96BRG

A forum? This isn't just A forum, it's an RX-8 discussion forum. Worse, you aren't even in the lounge section where non-automotive discussions belong, you're in the RX-8 Tech & Performance forum. No, a political discussion definitely does NOT belong here, and that isn't what this forum is about.

The internet is a big place - there are far, far more appropriate places for that political debate to be taking place!

(Oh, and wakeech was right - the rest of us didn't find those posts particularly fun or entertaining :p )

Regards,
Gordon

RX8Z

Guys, please its done and over with. The topic came about from the original topic, It wasnt like we came in here and started talking about it from nowhere.

You complain about useless posts and out of topic but yet , you post and bitch about it. So what makes yours any different? Same as mine, its useless but being i am one of the two that you are pointing fingers at, i am telling you right now.. its over, i agree with you ok? You are right, we are wrong.

Its over, dont beat a dead horse please....

Back to the upgrades , thanks !

rudy8

yeah. ive been on for only a few weeks and im just getting tuned.
help out

rudy

Omicron

Transcribing this here, as it's worth listening to:

VividRacing.com

crap this has got to be the longest topic discussed ever on this forum, 20 pages!

Genom

Nah. The original stage1 thread went 27 pages deep I think :D

wakeech

the stupid "associated word" thread is ~150 pages at this point.

Need For Speed

i want to instal a NOS sistem on mi 8.