extractors why aren't there more?
05-06-2004, 05:14 AM
#1
Registered
Thread Starter
extractors why aren't there more?
anyone know of any companies developing extractors for the renesis? headers are inexpensive and they only need 3 pipes on a renesis:D.
seems like there's a big market no-one is jumping on?
seems like there's a big market no-one is jumping on?
05-06-2004, 03:44 PM
#3
Registered
Thread Starter
whats the big deal with the siamesed port? they just use one tube and weld in a plate no hassel for a manufactuer.
so re-ameyia sp? got it wrong or are charging to much!
most pipe makers can make a 4cly exhaust which is much longer for less than half that price!
so when is someone going to make a cost effective manifold and take a day or two to play with pipe lengths or is it a room around the manifold issue?
so re-ameyia sp? got it wrong or are charging to much!
most pipe makers can make a 4cly exhaust which is much longer for less than half that price!
so when is someone going to make a cost effective manifold and take a day or two to play with pipe lengths or is it a room around the manifold issue?
05-06-2004, 06:31 PM
#4
Riot Controller
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 2,142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no, it's the siamesed center port that is the reason for little to no power gains.
pulse tuning isn't my expertise, but there's some info on why the center port causes problems for aftermarket headers, try a search.
pulse tuning isn't my expertise, but there's some info on why the center port causes problems for aftermarket headers, try a search.
05-07-2004, 01:43 AM
#5
Registered
Thread Starter
yes I have read it all and it seems to be that the centre pipe needs more work.
the siamesed port might be the reasason for little power gains on the only one available at the moment but I'd still get them if they cost what headers should less than $500 and thats au dollars.
everyone shouldn't give up just because one design costing thousands dosn't work. it only costs that due to high labour cost in japan. there is only a few hundred dollars in materials in a header.
even if the re-ameya headers are the best design then why dosn't someone start making similar ones for a normal cost?
the siamesed port might be the reasason for little power gains on the only one available at the moment but I'd still get them if they cost what headers should less than $500 and thats au dollars.
everyone shouldn't give up just because one design costing thousands dosn't work. it only costs that due to high labour cost in japan. there is only a few hundred dollars in materials in a header.
even if the re-ameya headers are the best design then why dosn't someone start making similar ones for a normal cost?
05-07-2004, 03:11 AM
#6
Registered
So far only Borla has been intelligent enough to laddress the different tuning issues of the center port. They still don't have pictures or a definite release date yet but it will happen sooner or later. I've been talking about ways to deal with the siamesed issue for over a year now publicly on this forum.
RE-Amemiya's header is a $1200 paper weight. It is a worthless welded pile of steel and chrome. ANY header for the Renesis that uses ALL equal length pipes is not worth their weight in materials. The way to tune an exhaust is to collect the pipes from each rotor or cylinder at specific locations. This determines where the powerband will be centered. Shorter lengths before the collector will yield a system tuned for a higher powerband. Longer systems tune lower.
The Renesis has 4 exhaust ports but only 3 runners. The 2 center ports siamese together before it leaves the engine. We can't easily tune this. To make matters worse the outer ports don't collect. Now we have 2 different tunings simultaneously. The center port also has terrible flow characteristics and flows much less than the outer ports. The exhaust pulses interact never the less and there is a pressure change in each rotor from the other side even though most of the flow is through the outer ports. This was the single biggest mistake Mazda could have made for this engine. Lucky us, they did it!
The key to tuning this exhaust by using a header design will be to find a way to get the center port to match well with the resonance characteristics of the outer ports. The outer ports can be tuned to the same length as each other since they flow the same. The center port however can not be tied in at the same length since it's pulses will mess up the tuning of the outer. The key is to make the center runner a different length or to use a deadleg manfold.
My question is basically this. Does it really matter how cheap a header is if it doesn't do anything? If I did this, I would probably go out and buy the cheapest lousiest tires I could find for the exact same reason, because they were cheap. I always encourage people to make smart purchases rather than doing something just because it is available. I want the manufacturers of lousy bandwagon type of products to know that people aren't going to fall for their lies forever.
Here are some FACTS about upgrades currently available for the RX-8. Remember that the whole point of good marketing is to MAKE you believe in what they are selling. If you believe them, it worked. The hard part is figuring out which companies are telling the truth and which are lying. Here's a list.
RX-8 headers: I don't care who makes them. If they are equal length, they are worthless. False advertising. This only applies to current products as of this writing. I don't want anyone coming back to this thread in a year saying that something then does work. Time will always find a solution.
RX-8 Intakes: SMALL gains. Depending on who's system it is, it may gain power in spots at the expense of power in other spots. Many cars have reported power losses from aftermarket intakes. This is still debatable but seems to lie within the extreme sensitivity that the factory maf sensor has. Gains will not be enough to fell a noticable increase in acceleration if used as the only mod. Works best in conjunction with other mods. You may notice a perceived increase in throttle response and it will be much louder.
RX-8 catback exhausts: Some gain power. Others lose over stock! I won't name company names so some of the owers don't start a was here but a couple of the more popular systems actually have less top end power than stock. The ones that do gain are generally small gains. As with intakes, these are also best if used in conjunction with other mods. The problem lies in the fact that a catback system isn't really usably tuning an exhaust for power. At this point it only needs to meet the flow requirements of the engine while still holding exhaust gas speed fairly high. It is lack of velocity on a cat back that is too large that causes losses. With the invention of a properly tuned header, the catback will get to be mroe important. Engine porting will also make this more important. As long as the stock engine has no port overlap, there isn't much tuning benefit. You will still get some gains though so don't think this isn't a good mod.
RX-8 ignition systems: The stock coils can't accept standard ignition amplifiers. The whole system would need to be replaced. Any power or gas mileage gains will be few and far between from this. It may affect smoothness or ease of startup but even this is debatable.
RX-8 flywheels: Oh hell yeah you'll notice it! You'll love it. Revs faster. They are not harder to drive. The car accelerates faster and revs faster. This is a fun product.
RX-8 ecu's: Very good upgrade. Much more power can be unlocked from the Renesis. Currently the best bang for the buck.
RX-8 forced induction: If you've got the money you can go as fast as you want to. I'll leave it at that.
Dont' buy something because you can. Buy it because it actually works.
RE-Amemiya's header is a $1200 paper weight. It is a worthless welded pile of steel and chrome. ANY header for the Renesis that uses ALL equal length pipes is not worth their weight in materials. The way to tune an exhaust is to collect the pipes from each rotor or cylinder at specific locations. This determines where the powerband will be centered. Shorter lengths before the collector will yield a system tuned for a higher powerband. Longer systems tune lower.
The Renesis has 4 exhaust ports but only 3 runners. The 2 center ports siamese together before it leaves the engine. We can't easily tune this. To make matters worse the outer ports don't collect. Now we have 2 different tunings simultaneously. The center port also has terrible flow characteristics and flows much less than the outer ports. The exhaust pulses interact never the less and there is a pressure change in each rotor from the other side even though most of the flow is through the outer ports. This was the single biggest mistake Mazda could have made for this engine. Lucky us, they did it!
The key to tuning this exhaust by using a header design will be to find a way to get the center port to match well with the resonance characteristics of the outer ports. The outer ports can be tuned to the same length as each other since they flow the same. The center port however can not be tied in at the same length since it's pulses will mess up the tuning of the outer. The key is to make the center runner a different length or to use a deadleg manfold.
My question is basically this. Does it really matter how cheap a header is if it doesn't do anything? If I did this, I would probably go out and buy the cheapest lousiest tires I could find for the exact same reason, because they were cheap. I always encourage people to make smart purchases rather than doing something just because it is available. I want the manufacturers of lousy bandwagon type of products to know that people aren't going to fall for their lies forever.
Here are some FACTS about upgrades currently available for the RX-8. Remember that the whole point of good marketing is to MAKE you believe in what they are selling. If you believe them, it worked. The hard part is figuring out which companies are telling the truth and which are lying. Here's a list.
RX-8 headers: I don't care who makes them. If they are equal length, they are worthless. False advertising. This only applies to current products as of this writing. I don't want anyone coming back to this thread in a year saying that something then does work. Time will always find a solution.
RX-8 Intakes: SMALL gains. Depending on who's system it is, it may gain power in spots at the expense of power in other spots. Many cars have reported power losses from aftermarket intakes. This is still debatable but seems to lie within the extreme sensitivity that the factory maf sensor has. Gains will not be enough to fell a noticable increase in acceleration if used as the only mod. Works best in conjunction with other mods. You may notice a perceived increase in throttle response and it will be much louder.
RX-8 catback exhausts: Some gain power. Others lose over stock! I won't name company names so some of the owers don't start a was here but a couple of the more popular systems actually have less top end power than stock. The ones that do gain are generally small gains. As with intakes, these are also best if used in conjunction with other mods. The problem lies in the fact that a catback system isn't really usably tuning an exhaust for power. At this point it only needs to meet the flow requirements of the engine while still holding exhaust gas speed fairly high. It is lack of velocity on a cat back that is too large that causes losses. With the invention of a properly tuned header, the catback will get to be mroe important. Engine porting will also make this more important. As long as the stock engine has no port overlap, there isn't much tuning benefit. You will still get some gains though so don't think this isn't a good mod.
RX-8 ignition systems: The stock coils can't accept standard ignition amplifiers. The whole system would need to be replaced. Any power or gas mileage gains will be few and far between from this. It may affect smoothness or ease of startup but even this is debatable.
RX-8 flywheels: Oh hell yeah you'll notice it! You'll love it. Revs faster. They are not harder to drive. The car accelerates faster and revs faster. This is a fun product.
RX-8 ecu's: Very good upgrade. Much more power can be unlocked from the Renesis. Currently the best bang for the buck.
RX-8 forced induction: If you've got the money you can go as fast as you want to. I'll leave it at that.
Dont' buy something because you can. Buy it because it actually works.
05-07-2004, 10:44 PM
#10
Registered
Thread Starter
Originally posted by rotarygod
So far only Borla has been intelligent enough to laddress the different tuning issues of the center port. They still don't have pictures or a definite release date yet but it will happen sooner or later. I've been talking about ways to deal with the siamesed issue for over a year now publicly on this forum.
RE-Amemiya's header is a $1200 paper weight. It is a worthless welded pile of steel and chrome. ANY header for the Renesis that uses ALL equal length pipes is not worth their weight in materials. The way to tune an exhaust is to collect the pipes from each rotor or cylinder at specific locations. This determines where the powerband will be centered. Shorter lengths before the collector will yield a system tuned for a higher powerband. Longer systems tune lower.
snip
Dont' buy something because you can. Buy it because it actually works.
So far only Borla has been intelligent enough to laddress the different tuning issues of the center port. They still don't have pictures or a definite release date yet but it will happen sooner or later. I've been talking about ways to deal with the siamesed issue for over a year now publicly on this forum.
RE-Amemiya's header is a $1200 paper weight. It is a worthless welded pile of steel and chrome. ANY header for the Renesis that uses ALL equal length pipes is not worth their weight in materials. The way to tune an exhaust is to collect the pipes from each rotor or cylinder at specific locations. This determines where the powerband will be centered. Shorter lengths before the collector will yield a system tuned for a higher powerband. Longer systems tune lower.
snip
Dont' buy something because you can. Buy it because it actually works.
so borla is working on extractors. good to see.
I don't buy anything only someything that works but the re-amemiya's are said to make some power and if the price was right I would buy them. little money for little gain.
05-08-2004, 01:04 AM
#11
Registered
Originally posted by rotarenvy
but the re-amemiya's are said to make some power and if the price was right I would buy them. little money for little gain.
but the re-amemiya's are said to make some power and if the price was right I would buy them. little money for little gain.
Regards,
Gordon
05-08-2004, 02:44 AM
#12
Registered
Thread Starter
would everyone give it a rest.
all I wanted to know is if any companies were making some extractors that worked! rotorygod was the only one who answered constructively. so now I know borla are the only ones trying to make them work and a moderator can close this thread.
all I wanted to know is if any companies were making some extractors that worked! rotorygod was the only one who answered constructively. so now I know borla are the only ones trying to make them work and a moderator can close this thread.
05-08-2004, 03:21 AM
#13
Registered
Don't be so hard on people. You did imply that you would still buy a product based on price but also rebutted that statement at the same time. People are just responding to make sure you aren't wasting you're money. You can't get mad at them for that. No need to be hostile.
05-10-2004, 12:57 PM
#14
Never fear, Rotarenvy. A good ole' American boy with experience in a number of different engine types/designs is working on a header design that takes into consideration a number of opinions and laws of physics. Most of my explanations could not match the mastery of engineering terminology displayed by Rotarygod and Wakeech but, when y'all see it later this summer you'll wonder why you hadn't thought of it. If I build it and it provides no gains, well, we know something else that won't work. My target, based on my own ignorance, is to gain 10-12 h.p. for $700 or less. still interested?
Charles
Charles
01-02-2006, 05:00 PM
#21
RG, do you happen to know if they(Borla) were even coming close to that "super-secret, double-probation" technology you and I discussed long ago? I need to get a few other projects up and finished before starting that header idea but it is still on the project board. It seems that the PPF is still interesting to people but I have two simpler ones to do before I finish it and then I'll do the header. I hear OBX is working on one.
CRH
CRH
01-02-2006, 05:06 PM
#22
Registered
I know they had tried several combinations but there was no explanation as to wy they quit working on it. I discussed my header idea with Racing Beat when I was at Sevenstock. They had tried many different combinations but they never tried mine. It did intrigue them and they were interested in trying it.
01-02-2006, 06:05 PM
#23
U-Stink-But-I-♥-U
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 12 o'clock on the Beltway.
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
ACK! i attributed the ti ppf to Richard Paul in recent posts! Sorry dude. BTW, do you have any info on the ti ppf? Reduction in weight, measured increase or decrease in lateral, longitudinal and torsional flex. Do you still have safety concerns considering break away behaviour in "incidental catastrophic barrier contact 
"? I am at least a market of one if the numbers are good. I realize this is a thread jack, but it was a dead thread anyway. Reply by PM if you wish.
"? I am at least a market of one if the numbers are good. I realize this is a thread jack, but it was a dead thread anyway. Reply by PM if you wish.
01-02-2006, 08:34 PM
#24
Thanks for the interest, Carb. Rich gets the props on the short shifter. So far, the weight reduction, whether titanium or aluminum, is in the area if 20-25 lbs. from a factory weight in the neighborhood of 40 lbs. We test fitted the part and it fits nice but we have some areas to strengthen. I haven't even begun to test the rigidity/flex yet, as my biggest concern is harmonic dampening. Even in aluminum this puppy's STIFF. Besides, I have two other products to offer first before I can dedicate time and money on the PPF. I just began communication with Robert and Manuel(the P.R. guys with the 20B) and I am sure they might encourage me to place I higher priority on the PPF project. I need to re-check the properties of Ti compared to aluminum and see if the differences make the cost worth it. I know the track guys would like to lose 20-25 lbs. of sprung weight for a few hundred buck and have the PPF be offered in a few anodized colors of their choosing or even polished aluminum. Drag racers are another story.
In any case, there are rumors that I may get laid off from Ford soon. If so, I'll have all kinds of time to develop this stuff and start a new career. Pray for my job loss!
CRH
In any case, there are rumors that I may get laid off from Ford soon. If so, I'll have all kinds of time to develop this stuff and start a new career. Pray for my job loss!
CRH
01-02-2006, 10:08 PM
#25
U-Stink-But-I-♥-U
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 12 o'clock on the Beltway.
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
. Pray for my job loss!CRH
I am not going to begin to suggest that I know what I am talking about, but I have some very light experience with Ti and Al as far as bike frames go. So strength for strength (variable wall thickness, Al generaly has to be larger wall thickness and be in larger radiused tubes) Ti is more flexable and, in a bike frame, dampens harmonics better than Al or cf. Al also tends to fail catastrophically and without "warning signs." Generally, Al frames have "lifetimes" where steel and, presumably Ti, last literally forever (unless you bash them or fail to take reasonable care of them). Also, bent Al (for a stuctural part) is throw-away. But you know all this anyway. I shouldn't presume to lecture.
If the Al part was half the cost of Ti (easier to work with, cheap as dirt) I would go with the Al (I do with my bikes) But I would suspect, just suspect, the Ti part would be superiour without regard to cost. Just a guess.
I dont rush perfection. When it is done, it is done.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Touge
Canada Forum
1
09-23-2019 06:45 PM
fc2se
NE For Sale/Wanted
2
06-01-2016 08:55 PM
Touge
Canada Forum
0
09-22-2015 11:51 PM
Touge
Canada Forum
0
09-18-2015 12:21 AM
