Aluminum Rotor Pictures!
01-10-2007, 08:47 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by Turblown
From a business perspective is pretty obvious why they haven't been made in the past; they just aren't enough people willing to pay for them. The only thing most of you guys will buy is something that is relatively cheap because they are made overseas by some kid who is paid fifty cents a day. Look at the percentage of turbo kits sold, how many are Greddy, and how many are made in the USA?
And you know this because you have already done it right, and you know exactly what they are going to do. Who knew all the REAL experts were hanging out the internet chatting away...
And you know this because you have already done it right, and you know exactly what they are going to do. Who knew all the REAL experts were hanging out the internet chatting away...
I'll be frank here as I have before; I'm not the REAL expert on any of these topics although I know more than most. I do hang with some of the most experienced and knowledgeable people in the rotary game on the planet. You're also correct in that these folks are seldom on the internet and hardly ever post anything.
I retract the statement that it won't happen and instead will state that I will be pleasantly amazed. Both at the completion of them and to their functionality and durability.
01-10-2007, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I was searching through some old articles and pictures of different Mazda engines. I always seem to learn something new everytime I go back and study these things. They have made aluminum rotors before. At least twice that I know of. The first was the HE10X and the second was the larger HE13X rotary engines. The HE10X utilized direct injection and redlined at 10,000 rpm. The rotors were 60% lighter than the cast iron units. The center bearing area and the area under the apex seals was not made out of aluminum. They were made of ceramic. These ceramic pieces were installed into a mold and then the aluminum cast around them into the rotor. No mention of ceramics where the side seals or oil seals were. Apparently it works. The larger HE13X engine utilized direct and conventional injection. I don't know about the redline. It made 220 hp. Aluminum has been done before as a rotor. It didn't sound cheap or easy though. Those engine were all aluminum.
________
DADSBOY
Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 11:10 AM.
01-11-2007, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Lighter rotating components do not effect torque. Only displacement does that. If the rotors were ultra dense and weighed 600 lbs each, we wouldn't have really torquey engines. They probably wouldn't even run. This is a very large misconception based on false perception. Heavier components actually hurt power and torque.
01-12-2007, 02:11 AM
#54
It's true aluminum absorbs heat faster than steel, but it also trasnfers heat faster than steel. So the expansion rate isn't exactly black and white, because oil can cool the aluminum rotor. But still, it will expand too fast because rotories inheritly run hot (just guessing).
But I wonder if Mazda ever experimented with different rotor types, like billet or titanium. Titanium would be nice, obviously because of it's superoir strength and lightweight, and it's heat characteristics are similar to steel. Another could be magnesium, which is lighter than titanium, but britle. And I also think magnesium can catch fire (burn) if I recall correctly.
But a titanium rotors price would be ridiciulous. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible. In motorcycles, titanium valves are becoming popular, and I know the valve doesn't undergo as much stress as a rotor would, but it's a step.
And I've heard of a few aluminum rotor single-turbo RX-7s, but the most they ever get is like 100 to 200 miles before the tolerances become too great and the engine locks up. Too pricey and not really worth it.
And I love how everyone gets hung-up on redlines, like 9 or 10 thousand RPM is a big deal. Because of the rotories orbital nature, a 30,000 rpm redline isn't that far off. It just isn't practical. And don't say there aren't materials that can handle that stress. The 2006 Yamaha YZF-R6 crotch rocket has a 599cc DOHC fuel injected in-line 4 cylinder piston engine that revs to 17,500 rpm redline. And before that, in the late '70's, Honda made a limited quanity of a CBX racing bike with a 600cc and 750cc in-line 4 carbed versions that revs to 22,000 rpm. And, if anyone here is into R/C cars, there are nitro 2-stroke cars with engines that displace 0.15cc, that rev to 55,000 rpm (basically because they have a 3mm stroke and they wouldn't make any power otherwise). So 10k isn't that much, and with reduced rotor weight, any redline is possible.
Dave
But I wonder if Mazda ever experimented with different rotor types, like billet or titanium. Titanium would be nice, obviously because of it's superoir strength and lightweight, and it's heat characteristics are similar to steel. Another could be magnesium, which is lighter than titanium, but britle. And I also think magnesium can catch fire (burn) if I recall correctly.
But a titanium rotors price would be ridiciulous. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible. In motorcycles, titanium valves are becoming popular, and I know the valve doesn't undergo as much stress as a rotor would, but it's a step.
And I've heard of a few aluminum rotor single-turbo RX-7s, but the most they ever get is like 100 to 200 miles before the tolerances become too great and the engine locks up. Too pricey and not really worth it.
And I love how everyone gets hung-up on redlines, like 9 or 10 thousand RPM is a big deal. Because of the rotories orbital nature, a 30,000 rpm redline isn't that far off. It just isn't practical. And don't say there aren't materials that can handle that stress. The 2006 Yamaha YZF-R6 crotch rocket has a 599cc DOHC fuel injected in-line 4 cylinder piston engine that revs to 17,500 rpm redline. And before that, in the late '70's, Honda made a limited quanity of a CBX racing bike with a 600cc and 750cc in-line 4 carbed versions that revs to 22,000 rpm. And, if anyone here is into R/C cars, there are nitro 2-stroke cars with engines that displace 0.15cc, that rev to 55,000 rpm (basically because they have a 3mm stroke and they wouldn't make any power otherwise). So 10k isn't that much, and with reduced rotor weight, any redline is possible.
Dave
Last edited by chickenwafer; 01-12-2007 at 02:19 AM.
04-03-2007, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I was searching through some old articles and pictures of different Mazda engines. I always seem to learn something new everytime I go back and study these things. They have made aluminum rotors before. At least twice that I know of. The first was the HE10X and the second was the larger HE13X rotary engines. The HE10X utilized direct injection and redlined at 10,000 rpm. The rotors were 60% lighter than the cast iron units. The center bearing area and the area under the apex seals was not made out of aluminum. They were made of ceramic. These ceramic pieces were installed into a mold and then the aluminum cast around them into the rotor. No mention of ceramics where the side seals or oil seals were. Apparently it works. The larger HE13X engine utilized direct and conventional injection. I don't know about the redline. It made 220 hp. Aluminum has been done before as a rotor. It didn't sound cheap or easy though. Those engine were all aluminum.
how about raplacing the ceramic for titaniun?
any updates on the ALUM rotors?
Last edited by rotary crazy; 04-03-2007 at 11:25 AM.
04-03-2007, 01:01 PM
#57
Interesting...I'd love to read their results! Anyone know East Coast Parts? Has anyone invited them to the board to discuss their project?
<snip>
Billet Rotor
This Rotor is being machine from certified T6061 Aircraft quality aluminum. We are going to be testing this part in the next few months and we will keep you updated with our results and specifications.
</snip>
<snip>
Billet Rotor
This Rotor is being machine from certified T6061 Aircraft quality aluminum. We are going to be testing this part in the next few months and we will keep you updated with our results and specifications.
</snip>
04-03-2007, 01:07 PM
#58
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I still want to know how they are going to machine the inside of them. Rotors are hollow to allow oil to get inside and cool them. This is practically impossible to machine which is why they are cast.
04-03-2007, 04:01 PM
#59
Thinking out loud and fishing for forum napalm....
Why not just take the expansion into account for an AL rotor...and load the seals such that they can stick out or slide back in for expansion? I thought the seals now use gas pressure to "push" outwards anyways?
Why not just take the expansion into account for an AL rotor...and load the seals such that they can stick out or slide back in for expansion? I thought the seals now use gas pressure to "push" outwards anyways?
04-04-2007, 01:49 PM
#61
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The aluminum rotors that were used in the HE-10X hydrogen concept car were far more than just a machined chunk of aluminum. They too were cast. Mazda went through alot of effort with them though. The seal locations were made from ceramic. These ceramic pieces were machined and then inserted into the mold where the aluminum was poured around them making them an integral part of the rotor. This meant the seal grooves didn't expand but they were also very slippery. Mazda's approach to the aluminum rotor was much different than this attempt. This is literally taking a chunk of aluminum and machining it to the proper shape. I just don't see this happening successfully.
12-02-2007, 08:44 PM
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Aluminum Rotor
First, we apologize for not being part of the topic in hand. We are so busy that we don't have time to surf the web or go into chat rooms.
About the rotor, well every one is kind of correct. Yes, this project has been very difficult but not impossible. We have spoken to people such as Alex Lopez, Rohan at Xtreme rotary, Carlos Lopez, Chris (Crispeed), Siguel Torres, Gabby Skern and many others. They are very excited.
Expansion is one of our chief concerns, since it expands twice as fast as steel. (not Cast) Our concern is that aluminum and its alloys lose part of the their stregth at elevated temperatures, although some alloys retain good strength at temperatures from 400 to 500 degrees. We have taken all this info into account to help with the design. We are using T6 aluminum from plate and certified for reassurance of its quality. Plate is usually better quality than extrusion but is more expensive.
Tolerances, our research shows that the rotary engines are not in such high risk in tolerance like piston engines. What is interesting is the way it was design. For one the shape of the rotor.
I have contacted top fuel teams about the expansion rate of the piston and their info has helped us alot.
We started this about a year and half ago and we are still learning. We are now in the last stages of the project and hope to have one ready for the upcoming PRI Convention in Orlando next week. We had to design a machine to cut the side seal grooves and this is the reason why the rotor has taken so long. The groove of the side seal is .032 thick and is .14 deep. There is no end mill that can cut this so a custom cutter was designed to make this cut.
This rotor will be coated for heat and lubrication. We feel that this could work and our hopes are high. We have our own dyno and have Alex Lopez assisting with the assembly. Once we get back from the convention, we will begin balancing and coating the rotors for assembly. The entire procedure will be recorded and placed on our web site. We know that the drawing board does not end here and we will visit often, but our hearts right now are in getting this to work at an affordable price. Street use is still far away but we will see what the future holds.
Wish us luck and we will stay in touch.
thank you
Edgar Perez
About the rotor, well every one is kind of correct. Yes, this project has been very difficult but not impossible. We have spoken to people such as Alex Lopez, Rohan at Xtreme rotary, Carlos Lopez, Chris (Crispeed), Siguel Torres, Gabby Skern and many others. They are very excited.
Expansion is one of our chief concerns, since it expands twice as fast as steel. (not Cast) Our concern is that aluminum and its alloys lose part of the their stregth at elevated temperatures, although some alloys retain good strength at temperatures from 400 to 500 degrees. We have taken all this info into account to help with the design. We are using T6 aluminum from plate and certified for reassurance of its quality. Plate is usually better quality than extrusion but is more expensive.
Tolerances, our research shows that the rotary engines are not in such high risk in tolerance like piston engines. What is interesting is the way it was design. For one the shape of the rotor.
I have contacted top fuel teams about the expansion rate of the piston and their info has helped us alot.
We started this about a year and half ago and we are still learning. We are now in the last stages of the project and hope to have one ready for the upcoming PRI Convention in Orlando next week. We had to design a machine to cut the side seal grooves and this is the reason why the rotor has taken so long. The groove of the side seal is .032 thick and is .14 deep. There is no end mill that can cut this so a custom cutter was designed to make this cut.
This rotor will be coated for heat and lubrication. We feel that this could work and our hopes are high. We have our own dyno and have Alex Lopez assisting with the assembly. Once we get back from the convention, we will begin balancing and coating the rotors for assembly. The entire procedure will be recorded and placed on our web site. We know that the drawing board does not end here and we will visit often, but our hearts right now are in getting this to work at an affordable price. Street use is still far away but we will see what the future holds.
Wish us luck and we will stay in touch.
thank you
Edgar Perez
12-02-2007, 10:51 PM
#64
First, we apologize for not being part of the topic in hand. We are so busy that we don't have time to surf the web or go into chat rooms.
About the rotor, well every one is kind of correct. Yes, this project has been very difficult but not impossible. We have spoken to people such as Alex Lopez, Rohan at Xtreme rotary, Carlos Lopez, Chris (Crispeed), Siguel Torres, Gabby Skern and many others. They are very excited.
Expansion is one of our chief concerns, since it expands twice as fast as steel. (not Cast) Our concern is that aluminum and its alloys lose part of the their stregth at elevated temperatures, although some alloys retain good strength at temperatures from 400 to 500 degrees. We have taken all this info into account to help with the design. We are using T6 aluminum from plate and certified for reassurance of its quality. Plate is usually better quality than extrusion but is more expensive.
Tolerances, our research shows that the rotary engines are not in such high risk in tolerance like piston engines. What is interesting is the way it was design. For one the shape of the rotor.
I have contacted top fuel teams about the expansion rate of the piston and their info has helped us alot.
We started this about a year and half ago and we are still learning. We are now in the last stages of the project and hope to have one ready for the upcoming PRI Convention in Orlando next week. We had to design a machine to cut the side seal grooves and this is the reason why the rotor has taken so long. The groove of the side seal is .032 thick and is .14 deep. There is no end mill that can cut this so a custom cutter was designed to make this cut.
This rotor will be coated for heat and lubrication. We feel that this could work and our hopes are high. We have our own dyno and have Alex Lopez assisting with the assembly. Once we get back from the convention, we will begin balancing and coating the rotors for assembly. The entire procedure will be recorded and placed on our web site. We know that the drawing board does not end here and we will visit often, but our hearts right now are in getting this to work at an affordable price. Street use is still far away but we will see what the future holds.
Wish us luck and we will stay in touch.
thank you
Edgar Perez
About the rotor, well every one is kind of correct. Yes, this project has been very difficult but not impossible. We have spoken to people such as Alex Lopez, Rohan at Xtreme rotary, Carlos Lopez, Chris (Crispeed), Siguel Torres, Gabby Skern and many others. They are very excited.
Expansion is one of our chief concerns, since it expands twice as fast as steel. (not Cast) Our concern is that aluminum and its alloys lose part of the their stregth at elevated temperatures, although some alloys retain good strength at temperatures from 400 to 500 degrees. We have taken all this info into account to help with the design. We are using T6 aluminum from plate and certified for reassurance of its quality. Plate is usually better quality than extrusion but is more expensive.
Tolerances, our research shows that the rotary engines are not in such high risk in tolerance like piston engines. What is interesting is the way it was design. For one the shape of the rotor.
I have contacted top fuel teams about the expansion rate of the piston and their info has helped us alot.
We started this about a year and half ago and we are still learning. We are now in the last stages of the project and hope to have one ready for the upcoming PRI Convention in Orlando next week. We had to design a machine to cut the side seal grooves and this is the reason why the rotor has taken so long. The groove of the side seal is .032 thick and is .14 deep. There is no end mill that can cut this so a custom cutter was designed to make this cut.
This rotor will be coated for heat and lubrication. We feel that this could work and our hopes are high. We have our own dyno and have Alex Lopez assisting with the assembly. Once we get back from the convention, we will begin balancing and coating the rotors for assembly. The entire procedure will be recorded and placed on our web site. We know that the drawing board does not end here and we will visit often, but our hearts right now are in getting this to work at an affordable price. Street use is still far away but we will see what the future holds.
Wish us luck and we will stay in touch.
thank you
Edgar Perez
just thinking out loud here but...why not simply use a steel with AL "inserts"? Might be easier...
12-02-2007, 11:53 PM
#65
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alum. rotor
The steel rotor is hollow in side and if you machine to much it will leak. I have talk to Jesus Pedilla from kilo racing and the most weight that he has removed is 2 pounds for the original.
07-28-2008, 09:24 PM
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07-29-2008, 08:17 PM
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Any educated guesses as to how such rotors would affect performance? (ie. hp/tq/rpm's, ect)
Is there a "rule of thumb" type of performance scale utilized depending on how much weight is saved on the rotors (ie. if the RB rotors are .2 pounds lighter and that effects performance by X amount, how much would the performance increase by decreasing weight at .1 Ilbs increments)
Is there a "rule of thumb" type of performance scale utilized depending on how much weight is saved on the rotors (ie. if the RB rotors are .2 pounds lighter and that effects performance by X amount, how much would the performance increase by decreasing weight at .1 Ilbs increments)
07-29-2008, 08:21 PM
#74
Any educated guesses as to how such rotors would affect performance? (ie. hp/tq/rpm's, ect)
Is there a "rule of thumb" type of performance scale utilized depending on how much weight is saved on the rotors (ie. if the RB rotors are .2 pounds lighter and that effects performance by X amount, how much would the performance increase by decreasing weight at .1 Ilbs increments)
Is there a "rule of thumb" type of performance scale utilized depending on how much weight is saved on the rotors (ie. if the RB rotors are .2 pounds lighter and that effects performance by X amount, how much would the performance increase by decreasing weight at .1 Ilbs increments)
I think only testing would be able to show the type of performance gain would be attainable.
For a guess you could take the older 10+lb rx7 rotors and build a n/a motor in a renesis core and see what kind of power increase you get when you throw the renesis rotors into the same build.
