Jcola

alright, well thanks guy for putting some sense in me. To me it seems it would work out ok, but i will take everyone's word for it. Although I do have an AP which could tremendously help with tuning.

also can I ask this, and I know there are no power gains to this at all. What if I were to put a ram air duct on the car to just have the car run at close to 100% efficiency as far as it having to pull in air? I know there is a thread on this but since I have everyone on this thread I thought I should ask this.

would this be a decent thing to modify?

WaitingforFI

iTrader: (1)

You really need to read this... twice: https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...rx-8-a-233937/

Stray

I had just wrote a huge reply but lost it. oh well, it's not like most of you read anyways.


Cliffs: Sorry for laughing at you Jcola. I thought you were talking about that ebay ****. Fact is, it works on the FT86 twins. It works really, really well. It could work on the RX8 with tuning, but I wonder about top end restriction and whether it can keep up. A larger compressor or spinning it faster could be the ticket. This technology is still in it's infancy and is only going to get bigger/more popular in time. I thought of a similar setup YEARS back with a few engineer buddies, but brushless motor tech and battery tech just was nowhere near where it is today and it's weight would have negated literally any gain it could have provided. mfg claims the 2 jumper batteries + Odyssey battery, compressor, wiring, controller ect. only weigh 9 lbs over stock. I'm assuming that's 9lbs after you replace the OEM battery. It's a very viable solution for a massive amount of low/mid range grunt. That kinda worries me though, because high load and low RPM can be rough on engines, piston and triangles alike. It'd kinda be like having a small shot of really consistant nitrous that never needs to be filled. As someone who loves laughing gas on their 8, sign me up.


I've contacted the MFG and have seen dynos, AFR's and compressor maps. The smaller compressor provided the stock FT86 they tested 180 lb/ft of tq at 3k rpms @ 4000 ft elevation. That's freakin' gnarly. It seems pretty legit, and I'd like to be a test mule in the future. Hopefully by then I'll have my adaptronic and can play around with something like this. In theory, if the compressor could be controlled accurately, I think a 3d map of "available/dispatched turbo boost" vs RPM and TPS percentage isn't too far out of the equation.

Basically, someone could shape the TQ curve to their preference :o



Cool find. Sorry for being a dick at first. Weird thread to find such a neat little product, though. Anywho, good luck with everything. If the mfg messages me back and wants me to test, I'll start a thread.



-Drew


P.S. Don't get me wrong. This is not something for a newb to be messing with, and it's totally not safe to boost without a tune. The only reason this thing runs un-tuned on some of the tested vehicles is because some older ECU's are shitty/awesome and can handle it. New technology usually doesn't care for it much though, which surprises me that they were able to do it on a FT86. Granted it did go pretty lean under WOT/Boost.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

You may well get an increase in torque at low rpms but I doubt very much that fan has the ability to flow enough air to keep up with the engine at high rpm and would be very surprised if it didn't restrict flow and cause a power loss .

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

Those are my exact thoughts, the kit provides 1.5 seconds of boost under load. So for that time you will se an increase (I believe a slight increase 15-20hp seems optimistic) other than that the rest of the time the kit will impede airflow and cause a loss of power for the remainder period when the fan (because its not really a compressor) is on.

I believe that this is not so much a problem with a piston engine but applied here it becomes one, taking a product designed to work with a conventional engine and applying it to the mechanics of a rotory hardly works out well.

The OP already has a Cobb, spend the 300 for a tune increase the entire powerband by a couple points, improve throttle response and you will be much happier.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

This might work to a point :

Hook it up to the elephant **** side of the vfad . and don't use the filter that comes with the kit .
Make sure the flapper is well sealed off .

So now the SC (aka fan) is applying positive pressure up till the point the vfad opens at which point it wouldn't be able to keep up anyway . The vfad opens and the fan is taken out of the airstream.

Might be worth trying for a little bit extra low down !?

Just a thought

wcs

iTrader: (2)

I have to admit this has been some what more of an informative thread (while still very entertaining) than I thought it might end up
That being said I still would bet the OP hasn't read the links I gave him.

So assuming this thing can make boost for a very short time... bringing it back full circle.
You're putting boost pressure in to the OMP and Crank Case hoses.
I guess you could use a combination of check valves and a oil catch can.
And still a short period of time with no vacuum to the OMP injectors.

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

Care to throw me a bone, I have never looked into going FI yet but I am trying to think of the complications this would cause. Yes, I am to lazy right now to look threw an 18 page thread

How do the FI guys get around this if it does cause a problem.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

On a draw thru setup -- meaning the Maf is before the compressor inducer and air is drawn thru the maf not blown thru as it would be if the Maf was post compressor exducer.

Generally it's considered a draw thru setup is easier to tune than a blow thru ... but I'm not so sure ... sooo you'll need to make that call yourself. (FWIW I'm running a draw thru but don't think that that makes me lean one way or the other)

OMP and Crank Case vent go before the turbo but after the Maf (Vacuum)

Jet Air line is good to go for bewst so it's plumbed before the Throttle body. It's good measure to zip tie or clamp down the Jet Air lines connecting to the LIM.
There's been cases while under boost these lines of popped off.

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

Very simple answer, not sure why I didn't realize it.

Thanks explanation.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

OMP is ok under boost as well - seen it done without issue on 2 rear mounts . And when I thought about how it all works it makes sense that it does.
The omp lines need to be protected against vacuum (so oil doesn't get sucked out of the lines) , boost doesn't matter as oil is non compressible.
So that just leaves the crankcase vent as an issue - which needs a catch can fitted.

With regard to draw through vs blow through maf ..... I'm actually leaning towards blow through as my preference to tune . The enemy of a good maf tune is boost leaks and with blow through you eliminate 90% of the possibility of a leak affecting the tune.

Is that flow chart relevant to to the electric SC the OP asked about ?

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Mmmm interesting. So you are setup this way now?
Having boost applied to the OMP injectors?

Yup that's the compressor map I pulled from the web site.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

No need for me to set up that way but with a rear mount it's the only way to go without running a tube right back to the rear of the car .
I really don't see a downside to doing it though.


According to the specs it spins to 20000 rpm yet that flow chart shows it needs 40000 to make any sort of boost ?

Jcola

Finally!, people are starting to see that this is not some cheap crap from ebay. Like I was saying I have reason to believe this a good way to increase low end torque off of the line. Like Stray was saying tho it could be an issue with restricting air at high rpm. Anyway yea I do my research on this stuff before mentioning it to the forums. I'll admit that I am new to FI and tuning, but that's why I am a member here cause I am 100% willing to learn this stuff to a fine science. As far as mechanics I would say I know A LOT not everything but a lot.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Thought it was me that said that ... but anyway , read my suggestion on how to conteract that via the vfad .

I would give it a crack just for fun if i was NA . I still see it as cheap e bay crap though , I have to say .

Jcola

I read it Brettus, that seems it would work also, probably be much better to start off then hooking it right up to the throttle body. The only think that would make that not work good is that due to the pressure build up the valve would push open and let the pressure out before the actuator actually actuated.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

You know,
Nitrous would be way easier to setup and no tuning, and only slightly more expensive.

Yes you have to fill a bottle but it's not as people make it seem.
You fill your car with gas don't you?

Just say'n ...

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

I would never spray under 4K RPM, not really suitable for what he wants. But I agree its a much better approach.

OP wants low end torque, Why? You only need that off the line then you are already in the upper RPM range where nitrous would be way more beneficial then the propose E-charger

Unfortunately the only cure for true low end torque is to purchase a car with a V8 and be done with it.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

I don't know, but I'm guessing you could get the same HP increase below 4k rpm with a 45-55 wet shot of nitrous ... totally pulling this from my *** guess.

I never had an issue with a 55 shot under 4k rpm.
Agree I wouldn't try it with a 75 or 100 shot.

I defiantly wouldn't be afraid to use a 35 shot under 4k

But you raise an interesting point Carbon whether it's intentional or not.

Just thinking out loud here ... my driving habits

If I knew I wanted to have a quick take off time from a stop I would be engaging the clutch around 4k rpm (3.5-4)

I cruise around 3.5k - 4k rpm

So I'm just pondering that if this was me thinking about installing this mod, when I think I want that down low power I'm going to be around 4k (give or take) anyways.

By the looks of that compressor map, that thing is already running out of lungs.

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

Yeah idk the exact details, I have been planning my nitrous setup for a while and just talking back and forth with Charles he was very adamant that is was not a good idea, hence I have been working an a RPM activation switch, just haven't had the time to dedicate to it yet. Need to finish my current projects and get my tune done first.

Hoping to achieve this by June at the latest, but I was also looking at a 65 shot.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

^^^ lol yup he is absolutely adamant about that sub 4k deal
And I wouldn't argue with him, after all he is the RX8 Nitrous Guru.
Ray installed my nitrous kit. Great guy.

I agree it's much safer to use nitrous above 4k --- I believe it's primarily because the SSV will be open by then which will avoid nitrous pooling. (can you confirm?)
I'm just saying I never experienced an issue however that may be due to my driving habits being that I'm not very often if ever below 3k rpm, accept when I'm stopped.
So knowing the SSV is load based and nitrous is only engaged at WOT, I may have just been lucky that the SSV was open for me each time.

He will also warn you not to go above a 55 shot, at least he did for me.
This is all because he has been there and done that and knows the safest most reliable way to use the nitrous application.
It's all not without a just reason.

LOL but when did we ever listen to reason, I own a rotary don't I?

I ran many a dyno on a 65 shot ... gives you about 50 whp, at least for me it did.
When I had the 65 shot installed I defiantly was more careful about the engagement of the juice.

I finally went to a 75 shot and dude ... it's almost like night and day.
But you really need to start watching what you're doing.

I was pouring the coals on and hesitated for a moment then slammed the gas back down and POOOOOF manifold backfire ...
I'm lucky the only thing I destroyed was the maf screens.

I went back to a 65 after that.

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

I'm currently running advanced timing, so I may go with a 55, or get a more modest tune to work with the 65 because more is better right

Drive it till it blows, then build it again

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Carbon8

iTrader: (4)

Im hopeful for 250 , assuming I can push past 200 once tuned.

Anyways OP, these are just some examples of a more particle means to get what you are looking for. Not saying I wouldn't mind seeing this experiment go down, just not to go into it with high expectations.

Jcola

I seriously did consider nitrous a while back, but I had a decision to either go with nitrous or get an AP, so I went with an AP. I think the AP is way more beneficial anyway cause I get to know what's going on in my car from the live data and fuel economy. Speaking of fuel I hit 24+mpg on the interstate going to IFO in Baton rogue.