Stop&TurnFreak

As you move from group to group, what benchmarks did you use to measure yourself against others, without using StopWatches as they are illegal at DEs .

I have always been curious who folks judge themselves tracking.....

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Guage yourself a more superior car. How well do you keep up with a M3 or a Corvette in the corners. Most of these cars will blow you away on the straight and should slightly out pace you in the corners. If you can keep up with these cars, it is a combination of your abilities and a lesser driver in the other car.
Then, of course, there are the other RX8 drivers.

MoodDude

I judge myself by what my instructor says and how my car feels on track.

I am not sure a M3 or a Z06 are superior cars to an 8, now an EVO - there is a car

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Mine goes like this
1-- I start seeing God before I brake.
2- The tires are crying all the time and I am still going the right way.
3- I havent hit anyone---yet
4- People will actually ride with me
5- you have given your car a name and you talk to her while on the track
6- i use more oil
7-i use more gas
8- a set of tires last more than one w/e
9- the association allows me to come back
10-AND i am able to drive the car home after it is all over!!!!
11- I didnt downshift from 3nd to 2nd at 92 MPH---(Dont ask)

On a more serious note-- i find that i brake for shorter lenghts of time, i shift gears less, my eyes are never still, I am relaxed, car temps are lower and I dont get anxious about being off line. Tire temps and wear is better
reallyolddragger

Stop&TurnFreak

Watch the Vids from Road Atlanta to see how I do against Porshes and Vettes......However, my best moment tracking was when one of the Panoz guys in a Panoz Race car pulled off so I wouldn't pass him in a street tired Evo.....

TrackAddict

Good question STF. I found that in HPDE1 and HPDE2, I was faster than the assorted high powered machinery on track with me. That in itself is not a good measure as I found that in HPDE3, cars that I could embarrass in HPDE2 leave me far behind. So, drivers are what make the difference and judging your performance against other cars is not a good indicator as you are really judging yourself against the other guy/gal behind the wheel.

So how do you know you are getting better/faster...

1. Get a previous instructor to ride with you. I did that at Roebling Road and got significant feedback.
2. Find some "run buddies" and see how you and they stack up over time. You are both at the same level or at least a known quantity to each other.
3. Seat of the pants - this can be deceiving because what feels fast often isn't. I like ODs suggestion that going fast is often going smoother so your tires last longer and the car doesn't feel strained. I know that I decided half way through this season that i was done exploring the point at which my car cannot be brought back under control. I am definately smoother and thus faster now.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Buy a Trackmate

Spin9k

Good track advice an instructor gave me was to always drive your car not against the other cars on the track, but against your own metrics.

I agree w/TrackingAddict - it's not how fast you (seat of the pants) think you go (we do have RX-8s after all lol), it's how you go fast . And to truly understand that vs. how fast you 'could be' in your car... as dannobre said, "buy a traqmate", study your data - now that's an eye-opener .

It's all about the driver, I have had point bys from Porsche GT3s, 911s, Vipers, even Ferraris on occasion in lower groups, and there is no way I "should" be able to do that, drivers being equal. In the adv groups I now haunt, that doesn't happen anywhere near as often, but still occassionaly !

The fun and challenge is actually to be able to outdrive some of the awesome machinery (drivers) out there , in an underpowered momentum car like the RX-8. The frustration is getting wasted by someone in the straights after outhandling them in the twisties

L8APEX

that I have experienced. while it is frustrating, I later learned that is was more furstrating for the driver of the 911. He was used to running away from us at Road Atlanta, and the fact that he could not shake us at Roebling really frustrated him. So we are all dealing with something out on the track, and a lot of the times, we don't know what the guy in front of us is dealing with. SO we need to give a little space, and not get in such a rush. It won't help.

I have not done as much track driving as guys like OD, TA and STF, but I have gauged my progress on how many things are going through my head while on track. My first event, I was so focused on the line, where to be, what to be doing, that I never noticed things like corner stations, spectators and that sort of thing.

As I have done a few more events, I have gotten more comfortable in the car. Now, once I know the line, or what I think is the line, I am not thinking about that anymore, not thinking about shift points, car placement, or any of the little things that I obsessed about my first time out. Now, i have restless eyes, seeing more around the track, cars that are ahead of me, behind me, and next to me, looking ahead, seeing flag stations well before I get to them if line of site permits it.

I have just gotten more comfortable driving, and have smoothed out my driving style. I am by no means fast. I don't get point by's from high HP cars, even in DE 2, where driver skills are lower. But I am getting better at it, and hope to keep trying at it for a long time. And having guys like STF, OD and TA in our group, especially if they are brave enough to get in the passenger seat....will only help more. Roebling is not far off...I cant wait.

Phlash

All very good points.....for me it's a comfort thing. I think back to my first Panoz event and remember thinking, "I wonder what it takes to spin this thing?" I was going half the speed I am now and thinking (while being a giant ball of frazed nerves), "it's gonna happen any time now." Now that nine events are under my belt, I know where that happens and how to reproduce it at will (lift at speed in a turn and your scenery changes quickly). Learning to drift really intrigues me...but that's another issue......That comfort level is having learned where not to lift, learning the line by emulating others at the head of their class, and slowing down to be quicker. I have had the great fortune of riding with and having some of the most talented drivers ride with me leaving some wonderful impressions that have stuck with me (STF- "on it, on it, on it", "DSC is killing you", "Damn Phlash, second lap of the day and your already half way home"...., TA - "The line is there, approach is too fast for early attack".......Mark - "You can brake much, much later, trust me"....., Dan- "Turn the bloody DSC off, you'll never really learn how to steer with the rear end if you don't. If you spin while we learn this, so be it, but you gotta feel it to learn it. So now, let's go, drive the bloody **** out of it and show me what we have to work with.".........Lego - "pull the tampon out and show us what cha' got.".......)

I enjoy watching them and continue to learn from our DE3 folks. I don't have the seat time of a TA, OD, Lego, STF, etc......so I would hope and expect them to be quicker, but I am gaining, a little at a time, I am gaining......comfort........

L8APEX

well put Phalsh. I look forward to watching you pull away at Roebling. I think I have locked up TA as my instructor, and him willing, I am going to start driving without DSC, and see what happens. If I spin, hopefully where it is safe, so be it. It will make for good video anyway. 'bout time I join the spin group anyway, and no, skidpads don't count.

Phlash

LOL!!! That's funny.........

You must have me confused with the other red car in our group......but I can show you some new lines..........

L8APEX

no, no confusion, in May, you started out right in front of me one session...and almost passed me later that session. i am in awe of what you guys do in this car, I see you guys carry 10-15 MPH more speed through a corner, and wonder how you do it. I know your tires have something to do with it, but it is still the same car. Especially yours and mine, they are almost the same, just a different color.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I wish there were more 8's at the track in our area. I'm usually the only one at most of the track days here...NW. I just bought a Trackmate...that I plan on using this weekend for the first time.

Phlash

I seem to recall that one of the two of us got written off to DE 3 last time we were there....and it wasn't me..........

Stop&TurnFreak

All good points. The best advice I have ever been given is use yourself as a judge, because measuring yourself against others can be dangerous. As my dad used to say, your brain will get you in a situation your body can't get you out of. .

I ALWAYS, measure against myself at the track, but my weakness is trying to play 'go fetch' with faster cars/people. And if I can't catch them, I push harder and harder, way past the point of what the Evo can truly do (I mean do for a length of time). As modded as my car is, it still won't hold up to what I could through at it, if I were in full 'race' mode. I still, drive about 85% of what I think the car and tires will do. If you watch the vids from Sunday, the only time I even ventured into the 90+% of what the Evo could do was chasing the Supra, and if I would have stuck it under the 944, I would have run him back down by turn7. *Reference Vid one @5M).

Hence the reason I am toying with either a 'true' race car, that I can drive to 105%, or getting something 'higher' end, such as a Z06 (06) or an RS4. Of course, they will have full suspension redo's, because friends don't let friends drive stock, right?

All I well tell you is this, over the last 2 years, i have watched Steve, TA, Lego, and OD, really come into their own. Most of you have also made vast improvements, but these guys kind of where 'under my wing'. As Steve is finding out, it takes multiple events to make small gains now, where as, he was making huge gains his whole first year. You guys will expereince the same things. TA and Lego, especially. I would bet next year will be a challenging year for your 'driving' improvement, because you guys are really doing most things right. You aren't going to see big gains like you have over the past few events. Now, your ability to problem solve, and self-reflect will REALLY come into play. I spend nights and nights reflecting on Road Atlanta. I really think a 1:36 is possible in my Evo, provided I could get into 10A harder, and 1, harder. 5 also needs much work.

I think the Evo needs a 'send-off' after the duty it has done for me, I need to email Julie, and get signed up. Not as an instructor, nope, I think I will come as a student. Everyone needs to get better, right?

Phlash

brown nosers.........

JK....I need to find a wing......next year, it'll come....

Stop&TurnFreak

L8APEX

that is a questionable write off. I still am not sure how that happened. Get passed by everyone, completely F up 2 out of 6 sessions, get ghosts and demons in the head in one, so in 3 good sessions, manage to get signed off...

STF, if you end of joining us for RR, you still owe me a ride in the EVO...

Phlash

That was three awesome sessions.....give yourself more credit.......

Let STF take you out in your car.......it's an eye opener as to what the 8 can do......

Stop&TurnFreak

..........I love driving other cars, especially 8's.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

phlash
You could go to 3--you have the basics down--just need to look more--but once you are in 3 you dont want to go back. Running in traffic is so much fun man. Like a REAL video game.
Now at roebling 2 is as much fun as 3 because on the 2nd day you will have 3 passing points. At least last time we did.
Guess what? I have never driven a track yet with the dsc off. It is a good nanny to have around. if it activates then you are not driving smooth enough. Of course that was in 2, now in 3 you may find yourself having to drive whatever piece of asphlat you find yourself on and need to hang the tail out a little.
Roebling I will lose my dsc for the 1st time--lots of run off room. I hope I can make this. I am walking the fence right now.
olddragger

Phlash

Need to look at more traffic I assume you're talking about?? I'm kinda on the fence with L8 on this one....I enjoy the instruction in DE 2 and really want to use as much of it as I can (not that I don't and haven't learned a lot from watching and listening to you DE3 guys). L8 and I are using each other right now to figure out some stuff just as you are doing in DE3. Similar setups, similar driving styles, etc...........One day L8 and I will join you guys......and we'll all be back running together.........I'm having a ball and learning a lot.

I do hope you get to come. It should be yet another grand time.

TrackAddict

There are a couple of big adjustments you have to make in HPDE3...
1. The other guys on track are more likely able to get more out of their cars - the Corvettes don't get closer when you are in the twisty parts of the track and less powerful cars (like SPEC-E30s) can be a great chase target when you are playing fetch.
2. You have to be way more aware of your surroundings. The fast cars can come up awfully quick and you better be looking for them to let them by so you don't become "that ******* guy".
3. You can run around the track offline but you better be aware of your grip limits/speed/track surface since there is passing in the corners and the passing car is offline.

I would like a traqmate system but right now all my money is earmarked for maintenance and track time. That is the best use of money (and the most fun) when you have a limited budget but an unlimited appetite for track.

L8APEX

for the reasons mentioned by TA, and one big one, I am staying in DE 2 for now. That big reason being...I have a lot to learn. I want to learn, need to learn, and am willing to learn. I have not been doing this very long, don't have all that much seat time, and don't consider myself good at this enough to be in the car on my own. Could I do it if I went out in DE 3. I think so, but I don't think I would be learning all that much, I would be too busy thinking about the things like the faster cars behind me, being offline because of being passed, things that would keep me from getting better and faster first.

I don't usually have a problem wiht getting caught off guard by a faster car that just "appeared" behind me. All three of the NASA instructors I have had, have said something to that effect, they have neverhad to tell me, "hey, there is a really fast car behind you now, you need to let him by".

What I have not had, except for once, the second go round at RA, was an instructor who was willing to push me, maybe not push me beyond what I can handle, but push me further than I already was. At RA, he knew the car could take it, and he knew that all it took was telling me to do it, and once I trusted it, and tried it, I was faster. I know that at RR, if TA gets to instruct me, I will get pushed, and I am looking forward to it.

On to Roebling Road...

Rotor on guys, cause this is fun as hell!