Nadrealista

Steve can you describe the steps (order of adjustments) to get most negative camber up front on stock suspension.

do they need to loosen up caster adjustment bolt and then do camber or the other way around?

Nadrealista

did not take any pics but I like the way they look. actually maybe you see them in motion here

pcs

iTrader: (2)

Steve - that -2.5, stock form? I'm limited in the rear at the moment, but don't know what the limit is in the front.

Have some camber arms that should be able to net me more in the rear so I can get more in the front - that is encouraging if you were able to get -2.5 in the front in stock trim...

Thanks!

TC4Tay

Look pretty good! Since my car is more a street car, I might go with 18s but the 17s are so cheap.

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

It seems to vary a bit for each car. I think around -1.7F is a reasonable expectation.
One way to get the alignment is to rotate the camber & caster bolts yourself to the point where they push the bottom of the wheel as far out as possible, then take it to a shop and ask them to fix the toe & only adjust camber & caster on one side to even it up (or even leave camber at max on both sides).

The rear seems to have plenty of adjustment range from the factory, so you can pick what you like for that.

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

Saw this after I posted my last comment. What are you set to in the rear right now? The rear gains more camber under compression than the front, so you don't need to go too crazy there...

Nadrealista

I am stock and best I could get was -1.1 on driver front and -1.5 passenger front so I had to settle for -1.1 , however tech doing it wasn't really the sharpest cookie. I feel there is more there if he knew how to play with caster to maximize negative camber...

Nadrealista

ok so I need to convert this to list of steps for the tech to follow:

Driver front:
1. loosen caster and camber adjustment bolts
2. adjust camber to max negative possible - do not tighten
3. adjust caster to see if more negative caber is possible
4. once max negative camber is achieved tighten both caster and camber adjustment bolts

Repeat for passenger front to match the camber and caster from driver side

Zero toe front

Set rear camber .5 degree less than front

.05 toe in on both rears

is this proper/accurate order of steps to get most negative camber in front?

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

Sounds about right.
Based on my recent experience I would give up that last 0.1 degrees of camber to get 1 degree of caster back (i.e. don't leave caster at absolute minimum).

If the toe is way out to start with, it may help to get that roughly set first.
Also, depending on which side gives the most camber, the tech may need to go back and take some out the driver side to even things up.

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

Before you go back, take a look at the position of your camber bolts. If the driver front is rotated so that it is pointing away from the wheel (ie the cam is pushing the wheel out as much as possible), then there is not much more to be had.

The other thing you can do to help, is loosen all the suspension bolts, jack up the hub to compress the suspension as much as possible, then tighten everything back up again.

pcs

iTrader: (2)

on stock suspension, im at -1.75 front / -1.5 rear, but if I recall correctly, I was limited in the rear, and the shop suggested I set the front at .25 more neg camber.

a hair of toe out in the front, a hair of toe in for the rear...

looking for a little more neg camber based on tire wear and whatnot

Edit: looking for more neg camber in the front and the rear - I'd like to try / get to -2.25 for / -2.0 rear to start and see how I like it before making additional changes (getting the Megan camber arms for the rear)

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

That sounds very good already for stock suspension. Are you sure it was not front limited?
If there is more possible in the front I would just add it in. I don't see any harm at all removing understeer from a factory setup :-)
Not sure you will need much more in the rear at stock ride height. -1.75 is probably as far as I'd go as it gains so much under compression.

pcs

iTrader: (2)

dangit - I hope I wasn't mixed up between the front and the rear camber limitations... if so, I'll need to cancel that order for the Megan camber arms...!!

if front limited, what are the options to get more camber in the front? Someone mentioned an aftermarket offset cam / camber bolt...? or am I imagining things?

Steve Dallas

Are you auto-X-ing or tracking the car? If tracking, I would remove that front toe. It makes turn-in slightly quicker, but costs you at corner exit, where you are trying to go fast. And, you don't need quicker turn-in with a car this nimble. It also accelerates tire wear unnecessarily.

IDK about stock alignment limitations, as it has been too long to trust my memory. I can tell you that my car is limited in the front, and has been for as long as I can remember. Speedsource once made offset lower control arm bushings that were very robust. I can't find them anywhere now. Beyond that, Whiteline makes offset bushings, and I have heard both positive and negative reports about them. Some of this is discussed here.

Nadrealista

I'll check the camber bolts.

as for compressing the suspension how far should I jack up hub(s) before re-tightening everything. What distance from the center of the hub to the fender should I go for?

Steve Dallas

Jack up the hub until the jack stand under that corner barely becomes loose. At that point, the suspension is supporting the weight of that corner.

My car is set up at 13.5" all around with a full tank of gas. That nets me a little positive rake as I burn through fuel. I think we are on the same tire size, so that should work for you. Be aware it is pretty low for street driving.

Nadrealista

I'll try that, but keep in mind that I am on stock suspension so I doubt I can get down to 13.5" ride height?

Steve Dallas

Oh. Right. You'll never get anywhere near 13.5". The other part is still correct.

Another way to do go about torquing the suspension bolts is to put 3 to 4" of wood under the tires, before putting the car back on the ground. That buys you enough space to reach underneath with a torque wrench and tighten everything. I have a set of 3" race ramps I use in the front. I have four 2x10s that I cut to 12" lengths and stack two high for the rear.

pcs

iTrader: (2)

Mostly tracking - didn't see this until after I got my alignment re-done today. Still have .05* toe out in front left and front right, for -.10 total.

Interestingly enough, my alignment settings for the last track day were completely out of whack (it's been a good year to 18 months since my last alignment, if not more).

Before:
Front Camber: -1.5 -1.4
Caster: 5.4 5.1
Front Toe: -0.05 +0.10 (oops)

Rear Camber: -1.2 -0.9
Rear Toe: 0.35 -0.05 (oops)

After:
Front Camber: -1.8 -1.9 (said it would even out with driver in car)
Caster: 6.3 6.4
Front Toe: -0.05 -0.05

Rear Camber: -1.7 -1.7
Rear Toe: 0.20 0.20

Need to get out and drive again to see how everything feels. Interesting that I was able to get more negative camber AND more caster...

**all this on a stock R3 suspension FWIW

Steve Dallas

You can get more as your bushings soften from the abuse.

pcs

iTrader: (2)

there IS a lower control arm camber kit out there, but it's part of a drift steering angle kit... Trying to see if it can be made shorter to work for our application.

Are you limited in what you can do based on rules for a specific race / tt class?

Nadrealista

man I am jealous at your front camber numbers, any special tricks to get that much?

pcs

iTrader: (2)

i know nothing haha. Just spent some time at a good shop near me that does work on a lot of tracked and raced miatas.

he said if i needed more, is coilovers or adjustable arms... theoffset bushings (that they've used in the past on miatas) don't help at all, as they end up rotating after a track day - sometimes less. They drilled and bolted one (i think that's what he said) in place and it cracked after a session or two...

NotAPreppie

At least a decade ago there was a discussion about ways to maximize camber. I think it was Jason Isley (ULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOSE, or however he spells his username) mentioned that there were a couple of different stock springs for the MT/AT Sport suspension; all with the same part number and all slightly different lengths.

The cars with the shortest of those springs had the best chance of seeing the most negative camber.

pcs

iTrader: (2)

That makes sense - the shorter the ride height results in the suspension geometry changing - and the lower you ride, the more negative camber is going to be built in to the setup.