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Thinking about trying STX out next year

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Old 01-02-2009, 06:53 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by chiketkd
Interesting parts selection. The Vorshlag stuff should be pretty pricey but quite nice.

The current list of stuff I'll be ordering next Fall is as follows:

1) Fluid Motorsports headers & mid-pipe (will add the RX-7 store high flow cat)
2) Bilstein PSS9's coilovers
3) Cobb AP (will get a custom tune)
4) Adjustable rear swaybar
5) Wheels & tires

I'm probably going to start with an alignment around -2.5 front, -2 rear and make adjustments front there. I know on A-arm cars you don't need as much static negative camber as the McStrut cars do.
Forgot about the header, I'll probably do that too. Haven't decided between Fluid Motorsports or Racing Beat yet.

The price isn't set in stone yet for the coilovers, but it sounds like it is going to be pretty reasonable for what you get.

Haven't figured out what I want to do for alignment yet. Need to start researching that. It's definitely nice having a good suspension design. I was talking with a friend that drives an STU evo the other day about tires. He asked if I was going to trailer my wheels and tires, I said no I'll drive on them. He asked if I was concerned about tire wear, I reminded him that one of the nice things about a proper suspension design is we don't need to run crazy alignment settings.
Old 01-02-2009, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Arrrrex-8
He asked if I was going to trailer my wheels and tires, I said no I'll drive on them. He asked if I was concerned about tire wear, I reminded him that one of the nice things about a proper suspension design is we don't need to run crazy alignment settings.
I'll be driving on mine as well. I need to pick up a pyrometer and figure out what works. I'll probably pick up some cheap all-season Kumho ASX's (treadwear 420 iirc) to use as street tires. They'll wear like bricks even with over -2 degrees of camber.
Old 01-03-2009, 09:14 AM
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I drove on my Azenis between events a lot this past season, and by the end of the year they were hard as rocks. Then again, they were also three years old when I bought them. I wish I'd checked that when I picked them up. Live and learn.

I already have a trailer from my r-comp seasons, I just need to put a hitch on the car. I've avoided doing it, hoping somebody makes one that doesn't bolt to the trunk floor. Doesn't look like that's going to happen, so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet.

Anyway, I like towing the tires because it gives me another place to put all my crap. It means I have to tow more crap with me, but it's nice to have a locked place to put everything.
Old 01-03-2009, 12:28 PM
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You'll have to forgive my ignorance here, but my recent racing background is with a CSP Miata and not an RX-8. Can you give me a rough idea of the gains to be realized by the Cobb AP? I'm unfamiliar with what kind of potential can be unlocked or what can be optimized through a reflash. (In the Miata, for instance, there was little to be gained unless you had significant power adders or forced induction. A piggyback setup was your best bet to cope with additional fuel needs if you went very far into modification.)

Can somebody give me a brief summary of what we're looking at here?
Old 01-03-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NordicGreen
Can somebody give me a brief summary of what we're looking at here?
Here's my $0.02...

Stock RX-8's vary greatly in terms of what they make at the wheels on the SAME dyno. Some dyno as high as 185-190whp others dyno around 170-175whp. With this said, the first step you should take before modifying the car would be to replace all four spark plugs and coils. On a car with older plugs/coils, doing this can result in a gain of up to 10 whp (note: this is not an increase over stock, just a step in the right direction BACK to stock).

From reading the Cobb AP development thread both on this site and on cobbtuning's forum, it was found that RX-8's lost power with most aftermarket intakes, and they actually recommend using a high flow panel filter in the stock airbox. Their base tune can also be used with a high flow catback exhaust. Mods beyond these require a protune.

With all of this said, a well-maintained RX-8 could see gains up to +5.5%hp & 6.7%tq (according to Cobb). See the dyno graph below:



The Map Notes have a better graph which shows actual whp: http://www.accessecu.com/accessport/...1%20MTv100.pdf

If headers, midpipe w/ high flow cat, etc are added to the car, AND you get a protune, power & tq should increase even more. TeamRX-8 made ~220whp on his STU car which had a custom intake, exhaust, Speedsource pulleys, etc.
Old 01-15-2009, 04:28 PM
  #131  
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Sounds like this is going to be the tire to have (borrowed from another forum). Any comments Mr. Harvey?

http://www.potenza. jp/lineup/ re11/imgs/ topL.jpg

"The new Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 Extreme Performance Summer tire has
arrived.

I will have more info in the near future but, I can tell you that this
is a North American-spec tire, which is different than the original
version already available in Japan. But, before you think that we are
getting an inferior product, know that Bridgestone North America has
done extensive testing, and has developed a spec that is faster at
street tire autocross competition (where the RE-01R has already been
very competitive) than both the Potenza RE-01R and the JDP-spec RE-11.

The Potenza RE-11 is an Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for
enthusiastic sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan drivers.
The Potenza RE-11 is designed to combine traction, handling and
driving control with good noise and ride comfort. The Potenza RE-11 is
tuned for dry and wet conditions but like all summer tires, it not
intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or
on ice.

The Potenza RE-11 is the first Potenza street tire to incorporate
Bridgestone' s 3D Seamless Stealth technology originally introduced in
their Formula 1 and GP2 racing tires. The Potenza RE-11 features an
asymmetric tread pattern that combines massive outboard independent
shoulder blocks interlocked with a notched circumferential
intermediate rib that provides the lateral stiffness needed to enhance
steering response and increase dry cornering traction. Inboard, a
continuous intermediate rib and notched shoulder rib are separated by
wide, straight circumferential grooves that provide water evacuation
to resist hydroplaning and enhance wet traction.

The tire's internal structure features a custom designed asymmetric
shape that helps distribute footprint pressure more evenly by keeping
the straighter outboard sidewall from "falling down" while helping the
more rounded inboard sidewall resist "falling away" during aggressive
cornering. Two wide steel belts reinforced by spirally wound nylon
provide strength, uniform ride quality and high-speed capability.

Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 tires feature black letter styling and are
available in selected 55-, 50-, 45-, 40-, 35-, and 30-series V- or
W-speed rated sizes for 15" to 19" wheel diameters."

/discuss
Old 01-15-2009, 04:51 PM
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Hi Eric -

I have a RE11 sitting about 10ft from my desk....it certianly looks the part ! The Tire Rack will be testing these tires along with the new Kuhmo XS and Yokohama AD08 as soon as the weather cooperates in South Bend. I will post some results and impressions as quick as I have them. Best guess right now would be late April or early May. The test track is buried under 18" of snow right now

Chris H
Old 01-15-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Zoom4Three
Hi Eric -

I have a RE11 sitting about 10ft from my desk....it certianly looks the part ! The Tire Rack will be testing these tires along with the new Kuhmo XS and Yokohama AD08 as soon as the weather cooperates in South Bend. I will post some results and impressions as quick as I have them. Best guess right now would be late April or early May. The test track is buried under 18" of snow right now

Chris H
Send them to me... We are testing next week. HEY, I know in South Bend you are still learning in a one-room school house.... But for the billionth time it is KUMHO.

Last edited by ULLLOSE; 01-15-2009 at 04:58 PM.
Old 01-15-2009, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
Send them to me... We are testing next week.
We may be testing in the rain...ya got a "plan b", Jason?





(no way I'm running on the OEM 400 tread wear M+S tires...)
Old 01-15-2009, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
Send them to me... We are testing next week. HEY, I know in South Bend you are still learning in a one-room school house.... But for the billionth time it is KUMHO.
i always thought it was kuhmo.

kum-ho just sounds a bit.. off.. to me.

Old 01-15-2009, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kersh4w
i always thought it was kuhmo.

kum-ho just sounds a bit.. off.. to me.

it sounds right to me ...
Old 01-16-2009, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
Send them to me... We are testing next week. HEY, I know in South Bend you are still learning in a one-room school house.... But for the billionth time it is KUMHO.
I'm not sure how much you will learn by mounting one RE-11 on the test car, but you have my digits if you want to give it a shot

Repeat after Jason:

KUMHO KUMHO KUMHO KUMHO

Chris "the whipping boy"
Old 01-16-2009, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mwood
We may be testing in the rain...ya got a "plan b", Jason?





(no way I'm running on the OEM 400 tread wear M+S tires...)
Think happy - dry - thoughts.
Old 01-16-2009, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Zoom4Three
I'm not sure how much you will learn by mounting one RE-11 on the test car, but you have my digits if you want to give it a shot

Repeat after Jason:

KUMHO KUMHO KUMHO KUMHO

Chris "the whipping boy"
Where is the confusion? It is clearly spelled out for you in tiny white letters.
Old 01-16-2009, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
Think happy - dry - thoughts.
If it is dry for only half the day, that will be enough, right?

btw, the tires were delivered today, I'll probably go down to my buddy's shop (where we keep the Corghi) tomorrow and mount them up.
Old 01-16-2009, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mwood
If it is dry for only half the day, that will be enough, right?

btw, the tires were delivered today, I'll probably go down to my buddy's shop (where we keep the Corghi) tomorrow and mount them up.
Yeah, half a day should still do it... You know me, two runs and I am spent.

We got ours as well.
Old 01-16-2009, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
It is clearly spelled out for you in tiny white letters.

What white letters?

Got room for another?
Old 01-16-2009, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
What white letters?

Got room for another?
One more:

Old 01-16-2009, 07:21 PM
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One more test slot
Old 01-16-2009, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
One more test slot
We are just using a Cal Club practice day, bought multiple entries. They have space left, but it is in a small lot inside the speedway, so expect a short (30ish sec) course - good for our test, but hardly worth the drive.
Old 01-16-2009, 08:18 PM
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I haven't even touched the car since getting it off the trailer following Nats, just getting a bit antsy

I need an autox fix, but based on that report will probably wait for the SFR event on 2/1
Old 01-16-2009, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
I haven't even touched the car since getting it off the trailer following Nats, just getting a bit antsy

I need an autox fix, but based on that report will probably wait for the SFR event on 2/1

Yeah, good idea. "Testing", in this case, isn't going to be about working on set up, but is going to be about getting data for ULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOSE's use. If it all comes together, you'll be able to read all about it...

SFR #1 (Boondoggle) will, once again, probably be in the 300 entry range, so expect the usual clusterfark. Still, Oakland has really become a very good surface to run on and, weather permitting, it should be fun.
Old 03-05-2009, 11:20 AM
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Interesting GRM article on aftermarket diffs...

From the February, 2009 issue:

What's the Diff?
by Per Schroeder From the Feb. 2009 issue

There’s one key factor when it comes to on-track success: efficiently getting the power to the ground. That’s a pretty easy task when the road is straight, as a set of ring and pinion gears turning a solid drive axle will do the job just fine. Difficulties arise when the going gets curvy.

As a car rounds a bend, the outside wheels have to travel farther and faster than the inside wheels. This difference in both distance and speed must be managed. Why? If the car simply used a solid, locked axle, the inside wheels would have to drag the outer tires—kicking and screaming—along for the ride. The result? Lots of scrubbing and binding. Clearly this setup isn’t a recipe for stable or predictable handling.

Enter the differential. This assembly avoids scrubbing by allowing two wheels on a single drive axle to travel at different speeds. It uses a series of gears to manage this differential in speed while still transmitting power, hence its name.

A standard automotive differential—commonly referred to as an open unit—is found in most production cars. This type of unit does have a shortcoming, as it can allow for excess wheelspin under power delivery if one of the wheels becomes unloaded. The power of the engine will essentially seek the path of least resistance, and if that means lots of smokey wheelspin from the inside tire, so be it.


From Slip to Grip

Alternatives do exist for those who crave an extra dose of performance. Limited-slip and other performance differentials are designed to allow each wheel to travel at its own pace while preventing excess wheelspin from the unloaded side when the hammer is dropped. There are four common performance differential designs: clutch, locker, viscous and gear. Viscous units are rare in racing, so we can cross that option off the list.

The clutch type uses friction discs and springs to preload the differential gears so they don’t spin as freely as they would in an open unit. As the axles try to move at differing speeds, the discs or clutches slide against each other, resisting this action. The result is a partially locked-together axle that still allows differential wheelspin, especially as the clutches wear.

A locker differential is activated and deactivated by the gas pedal: Under power, it locks the wheels together; when the driver lifts off the accelerator, the wheels are unlocked. These actions are accomplished by a series of gears and plates within the unit, and the result is much like an on/off switch. The unit is either locked or unlocked, which can create some instability as power is added in mid-corner. On the plus side, there is nothing to wear out and the units can lead long lives.

Gear differentials, like those marketed by Quaife or Torsen, use a series of parallel worm gears to distribute power to the wheel that has the most traction. The gear differential is typically more expensive than the other types, but it also has nothing to wear out or adjust. There is a downside, however: If one wheel is completely unloaded, the differential can act in the same manner as an open differential, thus making these units less than ideal for bumpier tracks and off-road use.

Finally, as with any attempt at categorizing the world, there are many variations of the three types—all different ways to skin the same cat. Some of the more popular aftermarket units are hybrids of the clutch and locker types. These units provide the benefit of solid lockup on hard acceleration, but the transition from locked to unlocked is generally smoothed out by a series of internal friction plates.


Reality Check

Choosing a differential seems easy enough. Just pick the type that best fits your needs, right? While this approach works for cars like the Mazda Miata and Honda S2000, reality often plays a bigger role in the selection process: Not all differentials are available for every make and model. The Dodge and Plymouth Neons, for example, only leave owners with one option: Get the darn Quaife and go racing.

Longtime GRM friends Peter Lier and Ian Stewart were two drivers searching for that ideal setup, and they were fortunate to have a few available options. Following Ian’s national Solo title in 2007, the pair turned their attention to road racing, specifically the SCCA’s Touring 3 class. They felt that the Torsen unit originally fitted to their Honda S2000 was allowing too much wheelspin. Luckily, class rules allow cars to run any differential. So, which one would they choose?

Knowing a product test opportunity when we see one, we pooled our resources to make this a scientific exercise. We all wanted to accurately compare the stock gear-type unit against the clutch-type Kaaz and OS Giken differentials. Our test site would be the tight and twisty confines of Central Florida’s Ocala Gran Prix. This track is really tough on differentials and would highlight any differences between the three units. Wheelspin, even with the grippiest of tires, will usually rear its head in four of the track’s nine corners.

We ran the stock differential for five laps, followed by the Kaaz and OS Giken units. The conditions throughout the day were quite consistent, and we verified that fact with control runs in a second car. To facilitate rapid swaps, each differential was fitted in its own housing along with the stock ring and pinion gears.


Torsen LSD (stock gear-type)

list price: comes stock
fast lap: 36.79 sec.
mean time: 36.97 sec.

The Honda S2000 uses a fantastic Torsen gear-type differential that has served many autocross and track drivers well. This piece of equipment has many things going for it, including the fact that it comes with the car at no charge. It also has no real bad habits, as it works well and will never wear out. It does, however, leave something on the table. It promotes understeer in tighter corners that eventually leads to wheelspin as the inside tire becomes unloaded. The Torsen also doesn’t lock up the rear axle to the point where a driver can use power oversteer to bring around the tail. Unfortunately, the Torsen’s behavior cannot be changed—it is what it is. Ian liked the Torsen’s high-speed manners. He also found that he could maintain a good arc through the track’s decreasing-radius, high-speed sweeper.

The Torsen-equipped S2000 turned consistent laps in the low-37-second range, with one flyer at 36.79. The average was 36.97 seconds. Now we could move on to the aftermarket units.


OS Giken Super Lock LSD

list price: $1390
fast lap: 36.45 sec.
mean time: 36.61 sec.

The OS Giken Super Lock LSD is a newcomer to the U.S. market, but that hasn’t stopped this unit from establishing a rabid following. Like the Kaaz, the OS Giken is a 1.5-way differential that locks fully under acceleration and only partially while braking. However, the OS Giken uses more clutch plates than the Kaaz; OS Giken says that reduced wear and even more progressive locking action are the benefits.

On track, Ian loved how the OS Giken allowed for part-throttle understeer, then progressively led to oversteer as more throttle was added. The car was easy to modulate and remained consistent from lap to lap.

Essentially, the OS Giken provided the best of the two other differentials: Like the Torsen, the OS Giken was quiet and composed during the high-speed sections; like the Kaaz, the OS Giken allowed Ian to hang out the tail in the slower stuff.

Ian’s times backed up his impressions, as he posted the fastest lap of the day when running the OS Giken: 36.45 seconds. He also clocked very consistent laps that yielded our fastest average of 36.61 seconds. Like the Kaaz, the OS Giken is also tunable for a variety of speeds and degrees of locking. However, we were very happy with the unit as delivered. Its very progressive lockup was just what our duo desired.


Kaaz 1.5-way LSD

list price: $895.50
fast lap: 36.73 sec.
mean time: 36.93 sec.

The Kaaz limited-slip differential is a variation on the clutch-type theme. When the vehicle is coasting, the internal clutch plates rotate freely without any preload, allowing the differential to act like an open unit. However, applying torque to the differential through either acceleration or braking causes a cone-shaped pressure ring to gradually lock the plates together.

The Kaaz is considered a 1.5-way limited-slip differential because it exhibits more lockup under acceleration than braking. A 1-way differential, by comparison, only locks under acceleration, while a 2-way unit exhibits the same amount of lock under both braking and acceleration. Generally speaking, a 1.5-way differential is easier to drive than a 2-way, as braking and turn-in are both smoother.

As expected, Ian found that the Kaaz offered very good exit speeds through the slower corners. “It’s very effective for rotation,” he noted. He also added that it responded almost immediately to throttle application.

The abrupt transition between understeer and oversteer did make for some exciting laps, as he found the Kaaz to be a little dicey during higher-speed maneuvers. For example, a turn that was stable and controlled with the Torsen became an exercise in knife-edge cornering with this unit; the car wanted to quickly transition to oversteer whenever Ian lifted off the throttle.

Despite the sketchiness at higher speeds, the predictable and welcome oversteer in the slower spots helped Ian really lay down some fast sessions. He initially scared himself a bit in that first, fast corner, landing a slow lap time of 37.44 seconds. After that, however, a string of high-36s flashed on the timer. His 36.93-second average was probably a tenth higher than it should have been thanks to that first-lap bobble.

A final word on this unit: While it’s possible to tune the Kaaz, doing so requires tearing down the differential and reconfiguring the clutch discs.This job can be accomplished in a home shop, but it’s probably not feasible trackside.


Two-Wheel Peel
The variety of available performance differentials is immense, each with its own positives and negatives. In this case, our on-track winner was the OS Giken, as it was both the fastest and easiest to drive. The OS Giken did come away with one strike against it, however, as it costs nearly $500 more than the runner-up, Kaaz.

Despite the higher price tag, Ian and Peter ran the OS Giken differential during the season-ending SCCA Runoffs. While Ian finished where he started—ninth out of 18 cars—the results don’t show one important fact: During the race’s opening moments, an overzealous overtaker spun Ian off course and to the back of the pack.

That spin put Ian into catch-up mode for the bulk of the race, and he discovered something else while making up those lost positions: His tire wear was significantly better than expected. “I caught several Kaaz-equipped S2000s that had simply run out of tire on the rear,” Ian noted. “We are very pleased with this differential.”
http://m.grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/

And FWIW, OS-Giken (http://osgiken.net/) has a super lock LSD application available for the RX-8.
Old 03-05-2009, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chiketkd
From the February, 2009 issue:

http://m.grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/

And FWIW, OS-Giken (http://osgiken.net/) has a super lock LSD application available for the RX-8.
Good article.

Is the 370z one of the few cars using Viscous that would be considered 'trackable' off the line?
Old 03-05-2009, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RK
Is the 370z one of the few cars using Viscous that would be considered 'trackable' off the line?
Elaborate on what you mean by "trackable"?

P.S. I was found Stewart's comment about the Kaaz lsd to be quite interesting as Team used that diff on his STU RX-8 and had mentioned many times that his car was quite loose on course. He attributed part of that to his stiff spring rates...I wonder how much of it was due to his Kaaz lsd???


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