Cito

Last few discussions on swaybars for B-stock (i.e., front swaybar only) I recall have essentially resulted in:

RB bad push
Whiteline at least some push, but still testing
TeamRX8-production problems
Stock with extra holes some potential
Mazdaspeed-worked well enough in Topeka

Can't recall any B-stock specific discussion on the Tanabe and Agency power bars. The agency power bar looks like it has potential in that it is tubular and adjustable. I have also considered using the agency power links (or similar) with a modified stock swaybar.

My car is still better than I am, but I am having problems with understeer with my stock swaybar and links. I need to get it realigned with the focus on trying to squeeze out more negative camber in the front and dialing out negative camber in the back.

I am running Tokico d-spec (hey, I love those *****), and running full stiff in the back with one-half to three quarter soft in the front. Tire pressures are in the upper forties in the back and mid forties in the front. I upped the pressures because the fronts were rolling over, which I think points to my lack of camber in the front (as well as driving issues).

My main problems are with performance through the slalom, which I think is worse when the fronts are soft, and I get a steady state understeer issue in long (i.e., very long) sweepers. It seems counterintuitive to go with a swaybar to get less understeer, but my, most likely mistaken, belief is that a stiffer swaybar might reduce the amount of weight shifting over to the outside wheel and allow more consistent traction for both front wheels.

Any thoughts even sarcastic and facetious would be appreciated.

Paul_in_DC

My only SWAG is that you might be carrying too much speed into the corners if you're still getting understeer. That's the only thing I can guess. And the tire pressure seems pretty high to me. What tires do you have?

On the other hand I'm curious about your D-spec experiences, especially since I have some on order from RB. What's your feeling on them for autocross? Have you tracked them yet?

The Mighty Red

I'm no pro but I'll take a stab at it. Keep in mind these are generalizations.

Stiffening the suspension will typically loosen that end through turns. I think you "need" a certain amount of weight transfer to take advantage of dynamic camber.

Tire pressure is also very important. Too much air and the tire will skip as it understeers. Not enough air and it will roll. Maybe try 45, see what happens, then let them down 2 pounds at a time until the bite is right without roll.

Cito

Well, my driving is the primary suspect of course.

Good point about the dynamic camber. And I know a swaybar will loosen it up, but not having enough stiffness is a problem too. I had taken out more of the stiffness in the front struts, and that did not have the expected effects.

I was getting the rollover of the tires at about 40 psi, and I took it up to 44.5, where it still seemed to be rolling more than skipping.

I am sure this is more a right foot connected to a dysfunctional left orbitofrontal cerebral region problem than anything.

I am still interested in thoughts about the other swaybars even if my driving "style" might make them unuseful to me.

Cito

I just found this in an old Sportscar magazine.

"For swaybars, the obvious is not always right," says (Andy) Hollis. "If the car has way too much body roll, a bigger front bar can actually reduce steady-state understeer. In most cars, a bigger front bar will increase understeer; but in some cases you need to reduce body roll so the dynamic camber doesn't go crazy."

My guess is that the 8 is not one of those cars, but maybe my thinking isn't too crazy.

John V

iTrader: (1)

This is definitely true for strut equipped cars. The RX-8 is not a strut equipped car. The stock front bar is plenty good on the RX-8. Other bars allow fine tuning for courses and driving styles but I would look elsewhere to fix massive problems.

I think you're on the right track with your alignment and thinking it may partially be a driving issue.

JV

Imp

What tires? I have a stock swaybar, on V710s running in the mid 35s, and no roll over... whatsoever. Hardly any understeer that I don't cause myself. (Koni Yellows) This is mostly on asphalt. If you're getting roll over on that higha pressure, you're overdriving pure and simple.

I bet you're getting roll over from one of the following...

1) you're overloading the tire by braking too hard with the wheel turned
2) you're turning way too quickly and not settling the car before the turn (slaloms are the main element that will do this)
3) You're going too fast in the turns/slaloms

Any of those three will put the front loaded tire on the edge when the car is going forward into a turn because you're overloading the tire.

Camber also plays a big part in that. The more camber you have in the front, the less you'll get on the edge as fast.

Stop hamfisting the steering wheel usually cures quite a bit of the above issues.

Smooth hands are happy hands. (Paints happy little trees....)

--kC

Sparky

I bought an Agency Power Swaybar. Can't recommend it:

See this for info:
Link

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I have the Agency Power sway bar and end links on the front of my car. At this time I can't recomend them. At first I tried using the oem end links, but the holes in the bar were bigger than the bolt in the end links. With the AP end links, it seems the bushing, that fits through the bar, is too long. This creates a sloppy condition between the heim joint and the nut. There is also a clunk during transistions into a turn. I may try to shorten the bushing to get rid of the slop.

The Mighty Red

Koni says "By adding rebound damping to the rear on both sides equally, it will loosen the car up some." They also say that adding rebound dampening to the front (stiffer) loosens the rear up a bit - but only on corner exit. Not what you need right now but something to keep in mind.

Try stiffening the rear and softening the front. Maybe even full-full and see what happens. It "should" help. The key to remember is that shocks won't lessen the amount of transfer - just the speed of the transfer during moments of dynamic load - turn enter and exit.

If you're experiencing a steady-state understeer, it may be crappy tires or you might just need to slow down.

Different tires (and sizes) have different limits. You may just be pushing them too hard. Better (and wider) tires will give you more lateral grip. Harder sidewalls give less roll.

Sparky

There are two schools of thought right now on how to balance out understeer.

1. Add rear rebound.
2. Decrease rear camber.

Having tried both, I prefer #2 but the current BS champ does #1. Best thing is to try both and see what works for u.

P.S. I'm assuming you've already done everything possible to maximize front traction though alignment and tire pressures with this advise.

Cito

Good thoughts. The shocks are at full stiff in back. I am going to get rid of some camber in the back and try to get more in the front before I mess with any more variables.

Tires are good. <30 run V710's in 245/35/18. Yes, my driving is an issue.

Cito

I bet you're getting roll over from one of the following...

1) you're overloading the tire by braking too hard with the wheel turned
2) you're turning way too quickly and not settling the car before the turn (slaloms are the main element that will do this)
3) You're going too fast in the turns/slaloms

Smooth hands are happy hands. (Paints happy little trees....)

--kC[/QUOTE]

I am sure these points apply to me quite well. But, its not a #1 situation. I think #2 is true part of the time, just quite inconsistent in how I drive slaloms. #3 is probably true and the biggest issue.

Actually, my hands are pretty smooth for the most part. Its the foot that is more of the problem.

Agency power definitely off the list.

Thanks.

The Mighty Red

I can understand how increasing the rebound damper on the rear can help to decrease understeer...

But how does reducing rear wheel lateral grip (by reducing rear camber) help give the front more traction?

If my theory is right - it won't increase front grip so much as it decreases rear grip to make the car more "balanced". So instead of having only understeer and a pretty solid rear -- you end up with a very "topsy" car that's loose at both ends.

But I could be wrong... it's just a theory. Anyone confirm or debunk?

Sparky

You're absolutely correct. Decreasing rear camber decreases traction on the rear end. Once you've done everything to increase the front the only thing left is to decrease the rear. It isn't "topsy", it's balanced which, in my limited experience is the fastest setup. A plus of reducing rear camber is that it increases traction on the inside rear which helps wheelspin on corner exit.

Cito

I have a little toe out in the front, maybe that's contributing to the mess.

Sparky

It shouldn't, I run 1/8" per side with no problem. Speaking of toe though, the rear just doesn't need toe-in like some other cars I've driven. I typically run zero on the rear and have even gone slightly toe-out on occasion to fine tune the car for a given surface condition. The car doesn't get loose like you'd expect but just feels more responsive on turn in.

Cito

Yep, my toe is at zero in the back. It all seems to lead back to the guy in the mirror.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

if the car is setup properly you can make it as loose as you want it to be ...

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

With the D-Specs on my car (stock front bar, 710s @ 39 psi front and rear, 1.5/2.0 -camber) I typically need to have the rears a little softer than the fronts to keep the car neutral in transitions. And, the car is very neutral in sweepers, easily adjusted with the throttle. The only place I get excessive understeer is around the very tight "stop and turn" pivot cones we need to make use of our funky lots here in PDX.

As you say, try for more front camber. Also I'd try balancing the pressures front to rear before pulling camber out of the rear. And, as everyone else says, don't overdrive it.

Finally, to answer the orignial question, the WL bar with the D-Specs will just increase the push, in my experience.

Cito

Thanks George.

MazdaRich

If you want to make the car perform better in transitions, I would say get a bigger swaybar. It seems like suspension settings are largely a matter of opinion and preference. You can definitely make the car neutral with a big front bar. It's probably not just your driving--you will know when the car is starting to perform the way you want it to. I like having a big front bar because it makes the rear more stable and I can push a little harder.

You might try setting the shocks even all around the car and playing with tire settings. One issue with running a standard front bar is that you can solve understeer by softening the front shocks. This hurts a little in transitions.

Anyway take what I say with a grain of salt...I'm on stock shocks and street tires. I'm probably going to try a matched rear RB bar to see if it improves the body roll (I'm in STU, where it's allowed.) Plus it's a lot cheaper than a full ground-control setup just yet. The car is fairly neutral right now with just a pound or so lower pressure in the front than rear. Tire pressure is the easiest thing to adjust, so I'd start there and eliminate other variables.

tuj

I have the RB bar and ran events on the stock bar and the RB front bar. The RB bar definitely makes slaloms faster. It also changes the dynamics of the car so that it understeers in nearly every situation. That's not necessarily that bad, especially if you are a driver who makes mistakes (like me), since its much easier (altho less fun) to recover from understeer than oversteer.

That being said, I cannot recommend the RB bar. It has destroyed two sets of stock end-links now. Its simply too stiff for the stock endlinks. I have not tried the RB endlinks since they require drilling out the holes on the suspension members.

There are very few setup problems that you can't drive around.

brattesani

rb bar = devil

92tsiawd

what happened with the front endlinks with the rb bar? I have the rb bars with the stock endlinks too, maybe I should upgrade