GULAMAN

Just got my RX8 and ostensibly I was going to run it in B Stock this year. Then I got to thinking, what's the best setup if all I wanna do is compete w/ my buddies(who are all in diff. classes anyway) for raw times??

SO, what would *you* do with $2000 and a bone-stock RX8??
(training and add'l seat time is a given, so let's put that aside)

-17" wheels with widest V710s that'll fit?
-coilovers?
-alignment (a given, I know)?
-brake pads?
-sways?

I should add, I'm talking about setup/mods that still make the car streetable; not gonna gut the car or anything like that!

any thoughts?

TIA!

Dark8

$2000 will get you a set of lightweight 18" wheels and R tires....

17" wheels, coilovers and rear swaybar would put you out of B stock.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

$2k wont even get you a top BS car setup much less a faster class. Better step up the budget.

GULAMAN

Thanks for the reply Dark. yes, I understand the non-Stock setup, and I'm saying that's OK. Looking for the fastest setup for the $, regardless of what class it puts me in.

Part of the reason I'm considering this is that I run in about 4 different AutoX clubs (ain't NorCal great, heheh) depending on where my buds are showing up. so, even if I was competitive I would never rack up enough events/points in one single club to worry about Class season totals. in other words, I'm looking for "vanity speed" , for a given budget.

Imp

Ain't that the truth. R-comps are $1K alone. Another set of wheels around $1-$2K there. Shocks... even Konis are around $650-$700.

$2K isn't going to get you much.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Not to mention that cheap crap instead of good parts will give you a BSP/SM setup that is slower than a good BS car. A set of stock wheels, Koni shocks and 245-35-18 V710s are at about your budget.... If you can drive better than your buddies you will beat them anyway.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

If you want your car to be faster than a BS car but don't care about classing, get some 18x9.5 wheels, put some 285/30-18 710s on it, and get some JIC or KW coilovers. Toss in a light flywheel & intake for good measure, and you are at about $5.5k or so. This *should* be faster than a BS car, but whether or not you have the setup and driving skills to realize the potential performance is another question.

As others have stated, some Konis & 245 710s on stock wheels should be very fast and a good basis on which to learn (and, of course, in your budget). Since you don't care about classing you could get a matched set of sway bars for relatively little extra $$$, but tires & dampers should be your top priority.

GULAMAN

Thanks, pretty much what I thought, yes $2k isn't all that much. Stock classing aside, do you think stock wheel/245 combo you allude to will give up much speed compared to,say, lighter 17"x9 wheel/275 V710s??

L8APEX

spend the 2k on driving lessons, and some good tires. The driver makes the most difference IMO.

StrokerAce

Get about 7k and get a shifter kart and driving lessons..

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I would think that a light 17X9 with a 275 would be quicker than stock 18s with 245s. I would not expect a big difference, maybe .5 sec. If you are happy with always having to run BSP/SM with a mostly stock car on big wheels and tires go for it. There are a few people like yourself out there that just run for fun and don't care what class they are in..... The rest of us are nuts.

It would kill your budget but you can get the SSR comp in a 17X9.5, $429ea. Not to many light 17X9s for the RX8.

moto_bruce

Tires are the biggest contributor to low times. Next would be dampers.

If you don''t have a great deal of seat time, and aren't used to R compounds, I would think carefully about the V710s. It is harder to learn fine car control on tires that are not very forgiving and they are expensive and won't last very long. If you have experience with sticky rubber, then great, go for it. If not, step gently into r-compounds. Tire rack is selling Dunlop SSR in 225/40-18 for less than $120 each (no affiliation). Don't come in enough sizes to be legal, but if you are only looking to smack down some clowns, this could be a relatively cheap way to break yourself into sticky rubber. Definitely not sticky like V710s but much more grip than street tires and they will last much longer.

Another good tire would be a Toyo RA1. Last long, but expensive also. The nice thing about the dunlop and the toyo are that you can drive on them to the event and also do track days on them.

Depending on where you drive and the surface condition, you can see some great improvements in time with good dampers. They are worth more time on rougher surfaces. I use Konis on my miata and RX8 and I think they are the best bang for the buck in a damper. I knew I was getting konis for the RX8 when they were available without looking for reviews because they were just so darn good on my CSP miata. You would have to spend ALOT more on a damper to get something significantly better than the Koni and you would have to be a pretty darn good driver to perceive the difference. A strenght of the koni is that when adjusted properly, you don't notice them. Another nice thing about the Konis is that your car will ride a little lower all around. This means you can dial in more negative camber up front. I was able to get -1.5 degrees. This is a big deal because you will get considerable more grip up front and dial out a lot of the understeer.

I have not installed springs or bars on my car. I'm like you and I don't confine myself to B-stock with my mods because my main auto-x ride is the miata. Springs and bars will help with the transients, but it takes some skill to get the most out of them. Setup starts to be a bigger issue when you add more mods. The difference between a well set up car with little mods and a poorly set up car with great mods is huge. The sorted car will be quicker. I am considering the MS springs because their rates are much higher than the other "performance" springs. Stay away from the springs that eat up 1-2" of travel and only increase the spring rate by 20-30%. You will get familiar with your bumpstops if you don't. What I don't like about the MS springs are that the ratio between front to rear is different than stock, shifting traction to the rear (understeer). If I recall correctly it is only about 10-15%, but when you are talking about balance at the limit, this may be too big a difference to counter with bars. Don't know, haven't gone there yet. Like I said, set up becomes a big deal.

If I was going to burn $2K, i would go with modest r-compounds, konis and get to the evolution school. I'd get some decent track pads and do some HPDE with the money I didn't spend on gear.. Anything else you buy won't get you anywhere near the time that tires, dampers and software upgrades will.

Bruce

carbonRX8

iTrader: (1)

Um, this is about what I have plus sways and Im no where near $5.5K. More like $4.5 (do my own work and not counting stuff that I have added and taken off) And if you are wondering, no I dont have the mad skilz nessisary to realize the performance gains. At least I wouldn't brag that I did.

Oh, and bruce, that was very informative. Thanks.

GULAMAN

Thanks Moto_Bruce, interesting points. what you described actually mirrors my recent experience, regarding tires and springs.
-Tires: I did in fact run the Dunlop SSRs for most of last year on my A4, they are a good transition tire as you said, and last a long time. now I'm Jonesing for more *stick*!
-Springs: I installed some pretty stiff & low Intrax springs on my A4 that did improve steering response/roll on an absolute basis, but w/ many accompanying negatives as you implied; yes I was on first-name basis with the bumpstops....

Lastly, at the end of your post you mention brake pads. are the Mazda OEM pads sufficeint for AutoX? I will also HPDE this car so I suppose it's a foregone conclusion that pads are in my future. My outgoing A4 had Hawk HP+ but I couldn't stand the squealing so I only left 'em on for HPDE and ran with Hawk HPS for street/AutoX.

Gulaman

L8APEX

IMO the stock pads to a good job for autocross. I have the Hawk HP+ on the car right now prepping for a track day, and the squeal and dust is killing me. Looks like my car is neglected. They are great pads for track use, but not necessary for autox if you ask me, I can brake later than a lot of the other cars on the course, and I feel like I get slowed faster too. But hey, I don't have the experience that some of the other guys have.

Imp

For pads all last year, I ran stock pads. They are great for auto-x.

I did a track day at NHIS after the season was over and ran Carbotech Panther+ in the front and Bobcats in the rear. No fade, at all... and I'll probably be running them this year too for that little extra bite and pedal feel I like.

Bruce, when are we going to see you at an SCCA event at Devens? More seat time to fill in the gaps between Miata events.

--KC

John V

iTrader: (1)

Nobody asked the obvious question of what your buddies drive...? Also, what's their skill level?

Get another set of stock wheels for 300 bucks and budget a couple sets of V710s. Run all the events you can which watching and talking to the best drivers in your area. You'll go lots faster than just slapping on an intake and light flywheel (neither of which will make you much faster).

John

clyde

Assuming I had to spend the money on the car itself, or $2k I would do the following...

$300 - one set of OE wheels
$950ish - one set new 245/35-18 Kumho V710s, with mounting
$650ish - one set Koni Sports
$100 - replacement exhaust shrouds (black plastic trim in rear bumper) to replace the ones that will break and assorted replacement fasteners for the front undertray that will break and/or disappear during a season of autocrossing.

If I didn't have to spend all the money on the car:

$300 - one set OE wheels
$950ish - one set of new V710s, mounted
$750 - schools

moto_bruce

Gulaman,

To answer your question about the pads, I found that the stock pads were more than adequate for auto-x. Initial bite is good when cold, modulation is good. You never really build up that much heat in a run so I've never run into fade, and I think most of the other auto-xers will agree that the stock pads are a cheap, long life, 95% solution for auto-x. Some guys like the feel of other pads, thats personal preference, but I don't think (opinion) that stopping distance or even modulation (at auto-x speeds) are different enough to mean any time out on course. Of course if the pad makes you feel more confident, you will be faster because your outlook and attitude are more positive. At auto-x speeds, we just don't get near the edge of performance of the brakes so there is little to be gained there. The braking system is very good. I think part of this is because the rotors are pretty big, giving lots of surface area and high relative speed to the pad at the outer edge of the rotor.

Track is different. I drove a few HPDEs out in CA a couple of years ago (street tires, OEM pads), then did the Glen last fall with Tracquest. The Glen was my first time on track on R-compounds (dunlops). I thought the brakes would be good to go, but by lunch on the first day, I overheated the pads and put pad material unevenly on the rotor (that has to be worth some kind of bone-head award). Had to live with the vibration for the rest of the weekend (they were new OEM pads, maybe I should have let them cure longer after breaking them in). An S2K buddy of mine (first track day for him) put Cobalts on his car and he had no problems, but he was on street tires. He used up about 2/3 of his pads over two days, about 300 track miles. I have a new set of XP8s that I will use at my next HPDE in the spring. I'm slow on the upgrades. I only upgrade when my driving skill improves enough to show me that I need to.

I think (opinion) that cars with big rotors and high relative rotor to pad speeds are more sensitive to the performance envelope of a pad. I've never had pad problems with my miata (OEM auto-x, OEM HPDE), but with the small brake rotors (and light weight of course) it just isn't possible to generate the rotor surface temperatures of a bigger rotor. Hopefully, I made the right choice with the XP8s, at least for the speeds at the Glen. I'll continue to use the OEM for auto-x.

KC,

yes, I need to get out to more of the NER events this year! I spent most of my auto-x effort in my miata getting schooled by the CSP guys in the miata club and I also ran a couple of times with CART and FCSCC. I haven't worked too hard on the RX8 for auto-x, mostly using what I know of setup from driving CSP. I am impressed with how fast an RX8 really can be at auto-x. Numbers don't do the car justice. It has good synergy and really talks to you when at the limit. Maybe someone who is fast can really show me what good technique really is. I hate it when I forget to turn off the DSC at the line. I'm sure we all have stories of holding the button down and checking the indicator lights in the middle of a braking zone or turn!

I hope to get out there more with NER. Its been a while since I've gone all the way around Devens. What's really rough is the lack of events during NE winters. Been watching alot of racing videos and playing GT4. Poor substitute for the real deal. Considered karting at F1....

Bruce

Dragonrider

You can spend all you want on the best handeling car around, and it won't do you any good in AutoX if the nut behind the wheel is not tuned.

L8APEX

done that, and left the A/C on a couple times. her in GA, in August, waiting in line, it is hot as hell. Dumbass me has done that a few times, and the DSC button. It does nto take long to figure it out.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

My fastest run yet in my RX-8 was with the DSC on at launch. Fumbled with it during the first slalom and still got the fastest time for that run group. Since then I don't worry about the long press so much.

Imp

How does 2nd run this year at Nationals sound? Bleah. But it happens.

The difference between Miata and NER is: You get less runs and more standing around with NER. Not going to hide that one. You can have days with 95 people or 195 people. So less people, more runs. More people (and any problems with timing, etc...) then you get less runs. We don't have limited entry, and we let non-members run. So yep... it can be hectic at times.

If you're new to the region... the 1st NER event of the year is usually the most problematic. You get a lot of people that heard about auto-x through forums like this, find out it's going to be racing, and show up on the 1st event of the year never to return. It's a lot of waiting for 3-5 runs.

Annual meeting is in 2 weeks. We might hear of some changes to the program to help make the event run more smoothly.

moto_bruce

KC,

I didn't want to say it, but you hit the nail on the head and I agree with you completely. I came to NE summer of 2004, did a couple of NER and Miata events and everything was cool. In the spring I did Evolution phase 1 and the first auto-x was NER. That was a long day for three runs and I didn't think it was good bang for the buck. I have been dragging some friends into the sport to try to help it grow and I have a hard time recommending the NER events for those still learning how events are organized and basic car control. I've been trying different clubs so that I can make good recommendations to my friends so that they have fun and stick with the sport. CART and FCSCC have been fun events, although less technically challenging.

I like the competition with the Miata club. They probably have the highest density of CSP cars (duh) and the courses are technical and at times deceptive. Not sure where the center of gravity is for BS. I drove a test and tune at CART and was approached by a 350z pilot that was looking forward to seeing me at more of the events to flesh out BS. Unfortunately, I didn't drive the RX8 at CART since.

But you hint at something important that I haven't been doing well as a member, driver and motorsports citizen, and that is supporting our region. I need to be out there. I need to be present, drive my best and be a part of the competition that makes auto-x fun. Although NER isn't perfect (is there such a thing as a perfect club?) I do believe NER events generally attract the better drivers in the region and you are right, the event organizers have the challenge of running the biggest events, educating novices and keeping the rest of us in line.

I'm getting motivated. Deep breath.

Bruce

yiksing

Best Mod = Driver + Tires